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Old 10-01-2013, 01:59 PM
 
6,221 posts, read 6,613,061 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vizio View Post
No. Believers in universalism believe in a god that is too small. Their god is not holy and just enough that he actually carries out a punishment.
Here is your classic "low road" or "glass half empty" view.

First it is not an accurate picture of universal salvation through Christ.
Second it assumes that it is "holy" or "just" that someone or something should be tormented or tortured forever.

There is a certain sense of failed logic here:
1. God is good
2. Everything God does is good
3. Therefore it must be good that God throws some into a place of eternal suffering

And also somehow, still, God is love.
So God is "too small", if He, being good, holy, just, and love itself, doesn't cause others to be tormented forever as punishment.

In reality we are not talking about punishment here, but simple sadistic torture. No one argues that people shouldn't get their due punishment ie. reaping what they sow. But it is the sadistic nature that leads to the above failed logic of God being "too small" if He doesn't torture people forever.
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Old 10-01-2013, 02:02 PM
 
6,221 posts, read 6,613,061 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by plain and simple View Post
Not threatened. Exhausted. My question is an honest and factual one. Why does that threaten you to have it asked?
Quote:
Originally Posted by plain and simple View Post
How about you address your own underlying sadistic streak first? For someone who isn't a Christian to come to these forums for years on end for the sole purpose of division, causing conflict and mocking Christians is the absolute definition of a sadistic streak. And it's more blatant than underlying. Consuming, really.
I'm sure thrillobyte will chime in (and I don't mean to speak for him), but I thought he is a Christian AKA a follower of Christ and His commands.
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Old 10-01-2013, 02:06 PM
 
Location: Dallas TX
304 posts, read 247,275 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by plain and simple View Post
Not threatened. Exhausted. My question is an honest and factual one. Why does that threaten you to have it asked?
It was only factual in your eyes. You made a few presumptions and then puffed up like they were, indeed, actual proven facts.

It's a long version of ad hominem. Rather than calling them a name, you described the "name". I'm not saying you did it to be a jerk or anything. Nonetheless, it's what happened.
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Old 10-01-2013, 02:08 PM
 
6,221 posts, read 6,613,061 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
There is an expression called "taking the high road". Also "taking the low road". These generally mean that when two possible scenario present themselves, the person(s) making a decision about what to believe can "take the high road" (the more positive scenario) or "take the low road" (the more negative scenario).

A perfect example would be eternal torment vs universalism vs annihiliationism. This topic has been debated in here as many times as there are words in the Bible. What has consistently occurred each time is that each proponent presents their set of verses supporting their position. I am one of the very few former ET'ers who has seen the light and gone over to universalism because I believe the evidence overwhelms the eternal torment view from a scriptural, logical, legal, humanitarian, and loving point of view. Annihilationism is not as attractive an option as universalism but it is certainly more merciful than eternal torment and it has probably the most scriptural support of all three. And the "eternal torment" verses are so fraught with mistranslations, misinterpretations, and outright deception that using them as support for a doctrine as henious as eternal torment is fruitless at best and downright abusive at worst. An example would be Matthew 13:41-43, an absolute favorite in the arsenal of any eternal tormentist to prove eternal torment.



This is so easily explained it defies logic: The "end of this Age" Jesus was referring to was the end of the Mosaic Law Age that Jesus and His apostles were living in when He spoke this and other "eternal damnation" pronouncements. The Mosaic Age they lived in came to an end initially with the crucifixion of Jesus and then in its totality in 70 AD with the destruction of Jerusalem. That ended "this Age"-- the one Jesus was living in and which he was referring to in this and other subsequent verses associated with burning in furnaces and such.

This is an uncontested fact. There are innumerable scholars who will attest to the fact that Jesus was speaking to the Jews [who He consistently said He came exclusively to, not gentiles] being burned in the fire and devastation that rained down upon the Jews in 70 AD during the destruction of Jerusalem by the Roman armies.

Combined, the number of scriptures in favor of of universalism/annihilation outnumber those hinting at eternal torment by a factor of let's say 50 to 1. Yet, eternal tormentists persistently refuse to at least consider the possibility that a factor of 50 to 1 offers any evidence at all that one of these other two positions might be correct. It's the old "there's nothing wrong with me, it's the rest of the world that crazy" argument. And you know what we do with people who say that.

But beyond the obvious illogic of steadfastly adhering to such a shaky position when scripture against your position numbers 50 to 1 is the question of why a mind stubbornly refuses to even give the other positions a fair consideration. It's pretty evident that the doctrine of eternal torment becomes so dear to its proponents that it's like they will lose their identity if they give it up, so integral a part has it become of their very existence. Is it possible that these people have an underlying mean/sadistic streak to them--the idea that "I worked hard, slaved, suffered, bore my cross for Jesus while these "unrepentant sinners" had fun, enjoyed life, got everything they could out of it. It's not fair that they should have an equal reward as me. They deserve to be cast into hell and burn for eternity; it's God's justice upon them for the evil life they lived."

They conveniently forget the parable of the workers in the vineyard:
From a rational viewpoint, it cannot be both true that God is love, and also causes beings to suffer infinite pain forever. Therefore most people conclude annihilation and/or universal salvation.

Or they go down the Calvinist path and decide God doesn't really love everyone, but rather intends that most of His creation be tortured forever for His own glory. Of course this would mean God would be merciless and unloving, contradicting most of the rest of the bible. But Calvinists seem to not concern themselves too much with their merciless picture of God - you rarely meet a Calvinist who declares he is not part of the elect... gee I wonder why.
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Old 10-01-2013, 02:12 PM
 
11,228 posts, read 11,254,000 times
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Quote:
Thrillobyte will chime in, I'm sure
I will indeed. It's just that I am on the way out the door and so will not be able to post in detail until this early evening PST. Pleroo had a wonderful response and so did you, lego. The fact that the ET'ers opened with a barrage of vitriol, rather than just address the various points I made in the OP (Matthew 13:41-43, for example and the 50 to 1 ratio of solid scriptural support against ET) merely proves the presence of the mean/sadistic streak that I hypothesized.
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Old 10-01-2013, 02:18 PM
 
Location: Dallas TX
304 posts, read 247,275 times
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I like this thrillobyte guy.
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Old 10-01-2013, 02:43 PM
 
2,278 posts, read 2,178,328 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
I will indeed. It's just that I am on the way out the door and so will not be able to post in detail until this early evening PST. Pleroo had a wonderful response and so did you, lego. The fact that the ET'ers opened with a barrage of vitriol, rather than just address the various points I made in the OP (Matthew 13:41-43, for example and the 50 to 1 ratio of solid scriptural support against ET) merely proves the presence of the mean/sadistic streak that I hypothesized.
This is why I don't address your so-called 'points'. By your own admission, they are YOUR hypotheses. Your rhetoric. Not scriptural in the least. They also go against the scriptures which clearly point out the evidence of eternal torment over and over and over again. You are thus claiming God is sadistic. I have no need to argue with you. God needs no defense. You will stand before Him to answer for your life soon enough, just as we all will.

How is this thread profitable? How does it help you in your walk with Christ? How does this affirm God's word and not contradict and mock it? How does this edify the body of Christ? It doesn't. None of it.

I am merely discerning your fruit. The scripture describes people who bear the fruit you do as - a tare. A tree with bad fruit. A wolf in sheep's clothing.
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Old 10-01-2013, 02:50 PM
 
Location: Dallas TX
304 posts, read 247,275 times
Reputation: 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by plain and simple View Post
This is why I don't address your so-called 'points'. By your own admission, they are YOUR hypotheses. Your rhetoric. Not scriptural in the least.
At least he's humble enough to admit he's not the canon of all truth, as most xians will claim, right? He asked a question every bit as scriptural as a chat on TRINITY would be. Trinity is not a scriptural discussion, it's a discussion DEDUCED from Scripture.

Well, so was his.

It seems YOU think more of yourself than he thinks of himself. I wonder who is more conversational and who just lectures you in a conversation?
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Old 10-01-2013, 02:56 PM
 
Location: USA
15,906 posts, read 8,164,467 times
Reputation: 2103
Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
From a rational viewpoint, it cannot be both true that God is love, and also causes beings to suffer infinite pain forever. Therefore most people conclude annihilation and/or universal salvation.

Or they go down the Calvinist path and decide God doesn't really love everyone, but rather intends that most of His creation be tortured forever for His own glory.
Of course this would mean God would be merciless and unloving, contradicting most of the rest of the bible. But Calvinists seem to not concern themselves too much with their merciless picture of God - you rarely meet a Calvinist who declares he is not part of the elect... gee I wonder why.
Or they manage to somehow maintain the cognitive discord of believing that God loves everyone but allows them to be tortured for eternity. Maybe by just not thinking too deeply about it.
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Old 10-01-2013, 03:01 PM
 
6,221 posts, read 6,613,061 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pleroo View Post
Or they manage to somehow maintain the cognitive discord of believing that God loves everyone but allows them to be tortured for eternity. Maybe by just not thinking too deeply about it.
Yes good point. I should have said "some people" instead of "many people". You are quite right that people compartmentalize and engage in double-think.
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