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Old 10-02-2013, 08:45 AM
 
Location: Florida -
8,780 posts, read 10,888,867 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by augiedogie View Post
What the OP has done is to create a different god for himself/herself. This is not the God of the Bible. For He says.

Mt 25:46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

Mk 9:47 And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, Mk 9:48 where “ ‘their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.’

Mt 10:28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

2Pe 2:17 These men are springs without water and mists driven by a storm. Blackest darkness is reserved for them.

To say that those who take God's word seriously are sadistic is to say God is sadistic, which is to call the God of the Bible evil.
You have identified the typical approach of those who embrace universalism and reject Bible teachings to the contrary (about 80% of the posters on this thread). They tend to characterize the greater majority who accept Bible truth as "ET'rs", rather than simply deal with scripture (It's a 'shoot the messenger' approach).
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Old 10-02-2013, 09:11 AM
 
6,221 posts, read 6,632,088 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jghorton View Post
You have identified the typical approach of those who embrace universalism and reject Bible teachings to the contrary (about 80% of the posters on this thread). They tend to characterize the greater majority who accept Bible truth as "ET'rs", rather than simply deal with scripture (It's a 'shoot the messenger' approach).
jghorton, did you even read my post just above? The scripture has been dealt with, many times. Just search this forum.

But it seems your response is the typical approach of 'ignore any response that doesn't fit with my own belief'.

The fact is, those verses have been addressed many times, while on the other side there are many verses that state God desires and wills to save all people, all people will worship Him, all will bow, confess, and swear allegiance to Him, etc.
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Old 10-02-2013, 09:16 AM
 
Location: Northern Wisconsin
8,886 posts, read 7,759,637 times
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legoman: I have over 40 hours of Exegetical studies from one of the top theological seminaries in the USA. My studies were all in the original Greek. I am quite familiar in Koine Greek and have read these texts in the Greek many times. I read and study the Greek still today on a weekly basis. The studies on this forum are mostly dung. I can read plain English and Greek. He who has ears, let him hear.

Da 12:2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.
Mt 7:13 “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it.Mt 7:14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.
Rev 22:14 “Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. Rev 22:15 Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.

How many different ways does God have to say it to convince people that He is very serious? When people say He will not do what He says, you make Him out to be a liar.
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Old 10-02-2013, 09:34 AM
 
6,221 posts, read 6,632,088 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by augiedogie View Post
legoman: I have over 40 hours of Exegetical studies from one of the top theological seminaries in the USA. My studies were all in the original Greek. I am quite familiar in Koine Greek and have read these texts in the Greek many times. I read and study the Greek still today on a weekly basis. The studies on this forum are mostly dung. I can read plain English and Greek. He who has ears, let him hear.
That is wonderful that you can read plain English and Greek. Then you should know that the concept of the English word 'hell' has been completely mistranslated in most bibles; its been translated from four words - all forced into the hollywood Dantesque version of a fiery torture chamber hell. These are the real meanings:
1. sheol - meaning the place of the dead that is described as silent, with no device or knowledge, like sleep;
2. hades - the greek equivalent of sheol
3. gehenna - the valley of hinnom where criminals were judged and the garbage was burned up
4. tartarus - used only once refering to chained angels

You should also be aware that there is debate on mistranslation over the words olam and aion/aionion. These words are translated as 'everlasting' or 'eternal' or 'forever' in places where they clearly CANNOT mean everlasting. This is the same word in Daniel 12:2. For example the 'everlasting priesthood' in Numbers 25:13 actually ended after several hundred years. Other places 'olam' is simply used to mean a 'long time' - that is the correct usage.

Quote:
Da 12:2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.
Mt 7:13 “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it.Mt 7:14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.
Rev 22:14 “Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. Rev 22:15 Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.

How many different ways does God have to say it to convince people that He is very serious? When people say He will not do what He says, you make Him out to be a liar.
Why do you think Matt 7:13 is talking about any eternal hell? It doesn't mention such a thing. It actually talks about destruction.
Likewise with Rev 22 - did you read the next verses? "And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely." Did you know that the gates never close? (Rev 21:25)

The only liars are those who have misinterpreted and/or mistranslated the scriptures.
I don't doubt God will do as He says.
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Old 10-02-2013, 09:48 AM
 
3,438 posts, read 4,748,984 times
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" the lukewarm I shall vomit from my mouth "
" not everyone who says Lord,Lord, shall be saved "

"if your eye is your temptation ,pluck it out,Better to enter heaven with one eye than enter Gihanna with 2 eyes"

" There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth "
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Old 10-02-2013, 09:50 AM
 
Location: Dallas TX
304 posts, read 247,960 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jghorton View Post
You have identified the typical approach of those who embrace universalism and reject Bible teachings to the contrary (about 80% of the posters on this thread). They tend to characterize the greater majority who accept Bible truth as "ET'rs", rather than simply deal with scripture (It's a 'shoot the messenger' approach).
I don't believe in Universalism as the answer, but I can make the argument from scripture, and probably win the debate. You can make a strong case for it with scripture, you seem to think scripture only leads to one conclusion.
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Old 10-02-2013, 10:01 AM
 
Location: Bay Area, Calif.
2,435 posts, read 2,852,840 times
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I would say rather that Enternal Torment implies more that God must be sadistic or fiendish. And Jesus never taught that humans have an immortal soul. However, he often did teach about the resurrection of the dead. Why would Jesus say that the dead would be resurrected if he believed that their souls had not died? Jesus did not teach that God would maliciously torture the wicked forever. Rather, Jesus said: "God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him might not perish but might have eternal life." (John 3:16, NAB) Why would Jesus imply that those who did not believe in him would die? If he really meant that they would live forever, suffering misery in a fiery hell, would he not have said so? The doctrine that hell is a place of torment is not based on the Bible. Rather, it is a pagan belief masquerading as a Christian teaching. No, God does not torture people eternally in 'Hell'. Although most translations use the word "punishment" at Matthew 25:46, the basic meaning of the Greek word ko′la·sin is "checking the growth of trees," or pruning, cutting off needless branches. So while the sheeplike ones receive everlasting life, the unrepentant goatlike ones suffer "eternal punishment," as in being forever cut off from life.
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Old 10-02-2013, 10:37 AM
 
Location: Florida
63,294 posts, read 34,485,629 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pleroo View Post
Why would you equate something that is observable and undeniable, and common to all people, with a doctrine that is based on the reading of a book, the interpretation of which is debatable and, according to those who believe in ET, is reserved for those who disagree with what they think everyone else should believe that book means?
Both deaths are undeniable to me. Just because I believe something doesn't make me any more or less sadistic. I believe there is death, illness, wars, famine, murder, rape etc, but why should tham mean I am a sadist. It is what it is. Would it make me a better person if I denied there is death and illness? No, it would only make me a person who denies it.
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Old 10-02-2013, 10:40 AM
 
Location: USA
15,906 posts, read 8,203,761 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
Both deaths are undeniable to me. Just because I believe something doesn't make me any more or less sadistic. I believe there is death, illness, wars, famine, murder, rape etc, but why should tham mean I am a sadist. It is what it is. Would it make me a better person if I denied there is death and illness? No, it would only make me a person who denies it.
And yet, as thrill pointed out, you believe ET in spite of the fact that there is much to point to the possibility that it isn't true. That's not the case for physical death.
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Old 10-02-2013, 11:12 AM
 
32,532 posts, read 30,746,802 times
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If there isn't a sadistic streak there's certainly a lot of meanness in some. When they start listing details of the tortures of hell you know they've thought about it a lot. Takes a certain type of person to dwell on the tortures they think people will endure. It also takes a certain type of person to sit and listen and say "Amen" when the guy in the pulpit starts talking about hell. (And proclaiming that the people in the other church are all going there.)
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