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There is an expression called "taking the high road". Also "taking the low road". These generally mean that when two possible scenario present themselves, the person(s) making a decision about what to believe can "take the high road" (the more positive scenario) or "take the low road" (the more negative scenario).
A perfect example would be eternal torment vs universalism vs annihiliationism. This topic has been debated in here as many times as there are words in the Bible. What has consistently occurred each time is that each proponent presents their set of verses supporting their position. I am one of the very few former ET'ers who has seen the light and gone over to universalism because I believe the evidence overwhelms the eternal torment view from a scriptural, logical, legal, humanitarian, and loving point of view. Annihilationism is not as attractive an option as universalism but it is certainly more merciful than eternal torment and it has probably the most scriptural support of all three. And the "eternal torment" verses are so fraught with mistranslations, misinterpretations, and outright deception that using them as support for a doctrine as henious as eternal torment is fruitless at best and downright abusive at worst. An example would be Matthew 13:41-43, an absolute favorite in the arsenal of any eternal tormentist to prove eternal torment.
Quote:
World English Bible
As therefore the darnel weeds are gathered up and burned with fire; so will it be at the end of this age.The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. They will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
This is so easily explained it defies logic: The "end of this Age" Jesus was referring to was the end of the Mosaic Law Age that Jesus and His apostles were living in when He spoke this and other "eternal damnation" pronouncements. The Mosaic Age they lived in came to an end initially with the crucifixion of Jesus and then in its totality in 70 AD with the destruction of Jerusalem. That ended "this Age"-- the one Jesus was living in and which he was referring to in this and other subsequent verses associated with burning in furnaces and such.
This is an uncontested fact. There are innumerable scholars who will attest to the fact that Jesus was speaking to the Jews [who He consistently said He came exclusively to, not gentiles] being burned in the fire and devastation that rained down upon the Jews in 70 AD during the destruction of Jerusalem by the Roman armies.
Combined, the number of scriptures in favor of of universalism/annihilation outnumber those hinting at eternal torment by a factor of let's say 50 to 1. Yet, eternal tormentists persistently refuse to at least consider the possibility that a factor of 50 to 1 offers any evidence at all that one of these other two positions might be correct. It's the old "there's nothing wrong with me, it's the rest of the world that crazy" argument. And you know what we do with people who say that.
But beyond the obvious illogic of steadfastly adhering to such a shaky position when scripture against your position numbers 50 to 1 is the question of why a mind stubbornly refuses to even give the other positions a fair consideration. It's pretty evident that the doctrine of eternal torment becomes so dear to its proponents that it's like they will lose their identity if they give it up, so integral a part has it become of their very existence. Is it possible that these people have an underlying mean/sadistic streak to them--the idea that "I worked hard, slaved, suffered, bore my cross for Jesus while these "unrepentant sinners" had fun, enjoyed life, got everything they could out of it. It's not fair that they should have an equal reward as me. They deserve to be cast into hell and burn for eternity; it's God's justice upon them for the evil life they lived."
They conveniently forget the parable of the workers in the vineyard:
Quote:
“For the kingdom of heaven is like a landowner who went out early in the morning to hire workers for his vineyard. 2 He agreed to pay them a denarius[a] for the day and sent them into his vineyard.
3 “About nine in the morning he went out and saw others standing in the marketplace doing nothing. 4 He told them, ‘You also go and work in my vineyard, and I will pay you whatever is right.’ 5 So they went.
“He went out again about noon and about three in the afternoon and did the same thing. 6 About five in the afternoon he went out and found still others standing around. He asked them, ‘Why have you been standing here all day long doing nothing?’
7 “‘Because no one has hired us,’ they answered.
“He said to them, ‘You also go and work in my vineyard.’
8 “When evening came, the owner of the vineyard said to his foreman, ‘Call the workers and pay them their wages, beginning with the last ones hired and going on to the first.’
9 “The workers who were hired about five in the afternoon came and each received a denarius. 10 So when those came who were hired first, they expected to receive more. But each one of them also received a denarius. 11 When they received it, they began to grumble against the landowner. 12 ‘These who were hired last worked only one hour,’ they said, ‘and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden of the work and the heat of the day.’
13 “But he answered one of them, ‘I am not being unfair to you, friend. Didn’t you agree to work for a denarius? 14 Take your pay and go. I want to give the one who was hired last the same as I gave you. 15 Don’t I have the right to do what I want with my own money? Or are you envious because I am generous?’
16 “So the last will be first, and the first will be last.”
While there may be some with an underlying desire to see others suffer, I can't believe that is true of most. I tend to think that fear, in some form or another, must be at the base for most. Fear of questioning God, for one. And who wouldn't be afraid of a God they've been told will fry them for eternity if they don't believe the right things?
I know fear was a huge factor for myself. I was an ET believer for most of my life and when I was presented with the alternative, I fought against the idea that ET was untrue tooth and nail. And that in spite of the fact that I suffered a lot of mental/emotional anguish over believing ET. I didn't hold onto ET because I wanted to see others suffer, but because I thought that ET was integral to my entire belief system. Any time my mind would try to extricate the ET doctrine from the rest of the things I believed, it seemed like the whole system must certainly come crashing down around me, the rug pulled out from under me. I was totally fearful of that possibility.
There is an expression called "taking the high road". Also "taking the low road". These generally mean that when two possible scenario present themselves, the person(s) making a decision about what to believe can "take the high road" (the more positive scenario) or "take the low road" (the more negative scenario).
A perfect example would be eternal torment vs universalism vs annihiliationism. This topic has been debated in here as many times as there are words in the Bible. What has consistently occurred each time is that each proponent presents their set of verses supporting their position. I am one of the very few former ET'ers who has seen the light and gone over to universalism because I believe the evidence overwhelms the eternal torment view from a scriptural, logical, legal, humanitarian, and loving point of view. Annihilationism is not as attractive an option as universalism but it is certainly more merciful than eternal torment and it has probably the most scriptural support of all three. And the "eternal torment" verses are so fraught with mistranslations, misinterpretations, and outright deception that using them as support for a doctrine as henious as eternal torment is fruitless at best and downright abusive at worst. An example would be Matthew 13:41-43, an absolute favorite in the arsenal of any eternal tormentist to prove eternal torment.
This is so easily explained it defies logic: The "end of this Age" Jesus was referring to was the end of the Mosaic Law Age that Jesus and His apostles were living in when He spoke this and other "eternal damnation" pronouncements. The Mosaic Age they lived in came to an end initially with the crucifixion of Jesus and then in its totality in 70 AD with the destruction of Jerusalem. That ended "this Age"-- the one Jesus was living in and which he was referring to in this and other subsequent verses associated with burning in furnaces and such.
This is an uncontested fact. There are innumerable scholars who will attest to the fact that Jesus was speaking to the Jews [who He consistently said He came exclusively to, not gentiles] being burned in the fire and devastation that rained down upon the Jews in 70 AD during the destruction of Jerusalem by the Roman armies.
Combined, the number of scriptures in favor of of universalism/annihilation outnumber those hinting at eternal torment by a factor of let's say 50 to 1. Yet, eternal tormentists persistently refuse to at least consider the possibility that a factor of 50 to 1 offers any evidence at all that one of these other two positions might be correct. It's the old "there's nothing wrong with me, it's the rest of the world that crazy" argument. And you know what we do with people who say that.
But beyond the obvious illogic of steadfastly adhering to such a shaky position when scripture against your position numbers 50 to 1 is the question of why a mind stubbornly refuses to even give the other positions a fair consideration. It's pretty evident that the doctrine of eternal torment becomes so dear to its proponents that it's like they will lose their identity if they give it up, so integral a part has it become of their very existence. Is it possible that these people have an underlying mean/sadistic streak to them--the idea that "I worked hard, slaved, suffered, bore my cross for Jesus while these "unrepentant sinners" had fun, enjoyed life, got everything they could out of it. It's not fair that they should have an equal reward as me. They deserve to be cast into hell and burn for eternity; it's God's justice upon them for the evil life they lived."
They conveniently forget the parable of the workers in the vineyard:
No. Believers in universalism believe in a god that is too small. Their god is not holy and just enough that he actually carries out a punishment.
While there may be some with an underlying desire to see others suffer, I can't believe that is true of most. I tend to think that fear, in some form or another, must be at the base for most. Fear of questioning God, for one. And who wouldn't be afraid of a God they've been told will fry them for eternity if they don't believe the right things?
I know fear was a huge factor for myself. I was an ET believer for most of my life and when I was presented with the alternative, I fought against the idea that ET was untrue tooth and nail. And that in spite of the fact that I suffered a lot of mental/emotional anguish over believing ET. I didn't hold onto ET because I wanted to see others suffer, but because I thought that ET was integral to my entire belief system. Any time my mind would try to extricate the ET doctrine from the rest of the things I believed, it seemed like the whole system must certainly come crashing down around me, the rug pulled out from under me. I was totally fearful of that possibility.
1 John 4: 16 We have come to know and have believed the love which God has fnfor us. God is love, and the one who abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him. 17 By this, love is perfected with us, so that we may have confidence in the day of judgment; because as He is, so also are we in this world. 18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear fninvolves punishment, and the one who fears is not perfected in love. 19 We love, because He first loved us (NASB)
That's my beef with Kurt Cameron and his buddy. They build a fear in people. You can't walk to God who is LOVE out of fear. It's like putting out a grease fire with water.
If you fear, you have yet to get the Love right. Now YOU don't do all the work on getting it right, HE changes our hearts and minds, but just as Moses had to hold the staff over his head, we too have things we do while he changes us.
How about you address your own underlying sadistic streak first? For someone who isn't a Christian to come to these forums for years on end for the sole purpose of division, causing conflict and mocking Christians is the absolute definition of a sadistic streak. And it's more blatant than underlying. Consuming, really.
His question must have threatened you. Why is that?
His question must have threatened you. Why is that?
Not threatened. Exhausted. My question is an honest and factual one. Why does that threaten you to have it asked?
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