Do Believers in Eternal Torment Have An Underlying Sadistic Streak? (believer, sinners)
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You have identified the typical approach of those who embrace universalism and reject Bible teachings to the contrary (about 80% of the posters on this thread). They tend to characterize the greater majority who accept Bible truth as "ET'rs", rather than simply deal with scripture (It's a 'shoot the messenger' approach).
jg, you are doing he exact same thing you accuse legoman of doing. You say, "they have embraced universalism" as if it is a totally fabricated doctrine with absolutely no scriptural support, when quite the opposite is true; there is more support for universalism than there is for "so-called eternal torment", no matter how much you may try to deny reality, while eternal torment is the fabricated dogma invented by church leaders in the 4-5th centuries for totally political purposes. You really should enroll in some history courses and learn how Constaitine embraced Christianity as a public "show" to unite pagans with the newly emerging Christian sect that was causing mayhem in his empire while secretly keeping his pagan roots up to his deathbed. If you ET'ers would just educate yourselves a little bit on the history and development of early Christianity you'd get a better picture of just exactly WHY is was so vital for the leaders to have a "fear" doctrine in place and that was eternal torment.
I have mentioned Matthew 13:41-43 no less than three times and the explanation for why it does NOT teach eternal torment, but rather the impending destruction and death of Jews living in Jerusalem. Not ONE ET'er has addressed this, if only to say why it is not the correct interpretation (for which I have reams of proof from scholars to rebut that it IS the correct interpretation).
Pleroo gave a reasonable explanation about who exactly are the ones with a sadistic streak somewhere inside them. It is not the Christians who embrace eternal torment because they live in fear of it. These Christians are too busy locked in their closets, afraid of venturing out lest they get struck by a passing auto and immediately sent to hell; that's what eternal torment has turned Christians into--neurotics afraid of their own shadow. If they're not neurotics then they have just slipped away from Christianity solely because they could not accept a God who inflicted such an unjust punishment on people He purportedly claimed to love.
But the other group of Christians, the ones like John Hagee who gleefully embrace eternal torment like it is a 7-course dinner to be looked forward to with saliva dripping from their jowls--these are the ones I'm convinced are closet sadists who get some perverted joy out of the idea of billions of people roasting hell for all eternity. Jesus said "You will know them by their fruits" and you certainly do: they are the ones who go around proselytizing the horrors of hell unendingly and how everybody who doesn't accept Jesus is going to go to hell. Jesus is merely their cover for the joy they get spreading fear and terror to all who have the misfortune of crossing their paths.
I had the misfortune of turning on Raul Ruiz this afternoon. On and on he droned, "Imagine going to hell for all eternity. Burning without end. Unceasing. No rest day or night. The agony so unbearable. (pause for effect) And there's no escape. None. You are stuck there for eternity. No way out. Suffering eternally in the worst kind of torment imaginable."
I listened to this nonsense totally stupified--numbed out of my mind wondering if he really thinks that this is the right way to draw his listening audience to Jesus--by making a loveless, unmerciful, uncaring monster out of Him. And then he has the audacity to turn around and with a straight face proclaim that Jesus loved us so much that he came to die for us. But once we die the love and mercy evaporates like it was never there and in its place is a completely merciless tyrant who cannot and will not listen to pleas for mercy.
If this is not the classic example of an insane and schizophrenic person then I don't know what is.
Bottom line: vocal adherents to the doctrine of eternal torment cannot/will not give it up simply because they get too much joy and fulfillment out of preaching it.
Last edited by thrillobyte; 10-02-2013 at 05:00 PM..
My view is what is is. Like paying taxes and death they say. Although, I suppose there are ways around paying taxes.
My preference would be a world without suffering, peace, harmony, no STDs, no cancer, no one could get hurt or injured by fire. I'd prefer a world without prisons because there would be no need for them.
And I would prefer everyone goes to heaven as I do not desire to go to hell nor do I desire to see others burn eternally or suffer eternally in hell.
But if eternal damnation exists then it does. Period. If it doesn't then it doesn't. But the stakes are high, and it's one's choice to toy around with their soul's potential to be damned eternally, and to teach their children not to worry about committing grave sins because at the end of the day everyone wins a gold medal. Everyone enters heaven.
Jesus made quite clear to this former pagan boy that once a person is damned to hell it is forever.
Belief in eternal damnation in hell, avoiding sin, and confessing and repenting when you do sin, is a small price to pay if in fact it turns out you are wrong and everyone does go to heaven. You'll be living in bliss for eternity along with all the rest of humanity. On the other hand, if one is wrong that hell isn't eternal then you pay a far greater price being wrong about that if you end up in hell. Life on earth is so short compared to eternity that reducing some of your pleasures--or even happiness--to gain eternal happiness after you die, rather than eternal suffering, is not all that great of a price to pay.
From a rational viewpoint, it cannot be both true that God is love, and also causes beings to suffer infinite pain forever.
I'm taking it you don't believe in the existence of Satan and and the fallen angels all of whom suffer infinite pain forever.
From a rational point of view, it cannot be both true that God is love and also causes beings to suffer all their life on earth. God knows of the sufferings of life on earth and the sufferings of hell. As in hell and heaven not everyone on earth is equal, some on earth have a many blessings, while others have a many crosses to bear. One person is born severely deformed, socially and romantically rejected, and another is born with above average looks and is usually socially and romantically embraced and celebrated.
Where is your loving God in that? Where is your loving God with the small child that is abducted, raped, and then murdered?
God is love. But that love does not manifest itself here on earth or in the afterlife the way you imagine.
Or they manage to somehow maintain the cognitive discord of believing that God loves everyone but allows them to be tortured for eternity. Maybe by just not thinking too deeply about it.
Christians say God is love and just. Christians say God has His own laws yet is merciful. The laws of God is what makes ascertaining truth as objective. Absent of God having laws then there is no truth, and abducting, raping, and murdering a child may not immoral.
How can this person presiding over a court in the United States be loving if they sentence a person to life in prison? Going by your assumptions of loving. Especially, if as atheists say this life is the only one you have, that life after death does not exist. How does a loving atheist steal the only life a person has for what is tantamount to the "eternity" of that person's life?
So, you're saying the Church created hell to tell priests and laity that if they are engaged in pedophilia, die unrepeated, they'll go to hell. That true belief in that deep down in your soul, even if it results in a guilty party feeling guilt, and repenting, is horrible because it resulted in the IRS, U.S. prisons, drunk driving laws, seat belt laws, and a host of other statutes and laws number so many in any county USA, today.
Whereas, if a priest or adult lay person deep down in their soul does not believe they are going to hell if the die unrepentant for molesting a child, only improves society, and if that comes about the U.S. Government will close down prisons and burn up the U.S. constitution, like wise with all state and local governments?
It is not that I choose to believe it, I just believe it, just I believe there is physical death, and that 2+2=4. I can't snap my fingers and not believe things. If that is what you do, then your faith is not real.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pleroo
Everyone can verify that physical death and addition facts are true. No one can verify that your belief that God will torment people for eternity is.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber
So, you don't believe anything you can't verify. I know some others who think that way too, and they don't even believe God exists, because they can't verify it.
You constantly complain that people are putting words in your mouth . . . and then your first sentence does just that to Pleroo. She never said any such thing. She was pointing out that the examples you used were not comparable. She understands where your certainty about physical death comes from . . . but she was seeking some understanding about where your certainty comes from about eternal torment. You are continually evading the question.
How can this person presiding over a court in the United States be loving if they sentence a person to life in prison?
What if the Judge voluntarily suffered unto physical and spiritual death for the guilty but they REFUSED to accept His free pardon by accepting what He's done for them?
God IS love. God is also Holy and Just. He demonstrated this in His life on this earth and ultimately on the cross. So God's love CANNOT be challenged, but yours can if you have not repented.
Jesus came to save sinners from a DEATH sentence which we ALL deserve for our rebellion. There were two thieves on the cross. One saw his need, humbled himself, and came to Jesus... the other mocked and scoffed.
We see nothing different today. One is in paradise... The other opened his eyes in hell. One came to Jesus for forgiveness. And one didn't.. One's sins were judged on that cross.. and one's sins will be brought to Judgment at the Great White Throne to receive the JUST sentence that GOD has ordained for ours (and the angels) rebellion against Him.
We best just all humble ourselves and repent. God resists the proud but gives Grace to the humble.
God is Holy and Just.. There is no bail.. no community service... no purgatory.. only a free pardon through Jesus Christ that must be received prior to us leaving this physical world.
JESUS came to save sinners from ETERNAL DAMNATION.
Reading how the ET'ers have ducked and dodged my points in every single post I've made it is clear to me and I will reiterate:
vocal proponents of eternal torment simply will not give up their cherished sacred cow. In some strange, way, to use torpedo's adjective, they get a "creepy" joy out of preaching it. It fulfills some need in their lives to feel they are superior and "elite" to all the unsaved human refuse they sincerely believe are headed to hell. To be able to feel something as powerful as that is greater than experiencing an orgasm. It is the height of spiritual ecstasy. Their posts reek with it.
Reading how the ET'ers have ducked and dodged my points in every single post I've made it is clear to me and I will reiterate:
vocal proponents of eternal torment simply will not give up their cherished sacred cow. In some strange, way, to use torpedo's adjective, they get a "creepy" joy out of preaching it. It fulfills some need in their lives to feel they are superior and "elite" to all the unsaved human refuse they sincerely believe are headed to hell. To be able to feel something as powerful as that is greater than experiencing an orgasm. It is the height of spiritual ecstasy. Their posts reek with it.
The huge stumbling block for someone who believes and is totally convinced they are saved from eternal hell, has always been, why not live how we want if all are saved and going to heaven ?. This identifies the motive of why they believe in God( in their mind to flea the wrath to come instead of living for righteousness ) and how fragile the foundation of their belief. What they need is to be educated what salvation is.
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