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Old 10-03-2013, 03:23 PM
 
Location: Milwaukee
1,999 posts, read 2,460,764 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
Reading how the ET'ers have ducked and dodged my points in every single post I've made it is clear to me and I will reiterate:

vocal proponents of eternal torment simply will not give up their cherished sacred cow. In some strange, way, to use torpedo's adjective, they get a "creepy" joy out of preaching it. It fulfills some need in their lives to feel they are superior and "elite" to all the unsaved human refuse they sincerely believe are headed to hell. To be able to feel something as powerful as that is greater than experiencing an orgasm. It is the height of spiritual ecstasy. Their posts reek with it.
Not that I agree with you but even if your were right how does that change anything? I hear Americans cheer people being sent to prison and boast of their own freedom on the outside. That does not change the fact some get sent to prison.

I notice a lot of people like to begin their reasoning about God and hell from an emotional standpoint. Such as "this message shall set you free." Catholicism is often about picking up one's cross and suffering, and its about every Catholic's potential for going to hell no matter his or her rank, Popes, Kings, and Queens can all go to hell.

The better question--as with U.S. prisons--is do you want to go there. And eternal damnation in hell ought to cause fear in someone. Fear can be healthy if it is kept in balance.

Those opposed to Christianity and the concept of hell or eternal damnation are always going to accuse Christians of X, Y, Z. Always. So, short of committing heresy or following them on the path of eternal damnation, is going to please those opposed to Christianity.
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Old 10-03-2013, 03:39 PM
 
18,193 posts, read 16,788,691 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Supine View Post
Not that I agree with you but even if your were right how does that change anything? I hear Americans cheer people being sent to prison and boast of their own freedom on the outside. That does not change the fact some get sent to prison.

I notice a lot of people like to begin their reasoning about God and hell from an emotional standpoint. Such as "this message shall set you free." Catholicism is often about picking up one's cross and suffering, and its about every Catholic's potential for going to hell no matter his or her rank, Popes, Kings, and Queens can all go to hell.

The better question--as with U.S. prisons--is do you want to go there. And eternal damnation in hell ought to cause fear in someone. Fear can be healthy if it is kept in balance.

Those opposed to Christianity and the concept of hell or eternal damnation are always going to accuse Christians of X, Y, Z. Always. So, short of committing heresy or following them on the path of eternal damnation, is going to please those opposed to Christianity.
One of the ET'ers finally had the guts to come out and say it. "Fear is a very good thing" -- if the end justifies the means, why not use fear.

The only problem is it has never really truly converted a person's soul. Nobody coming to Jesus out of pure terror is every going to be anything but one of the seeds that fell on stone, sprouted up and then as quickly, withered away. That's the kind of salvation coming to the Lord in fear and terror will always produce.
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Old 10-03-2013, 11:10 PM
 
Location: Melbourne, Australia
9,572 posts, read 20,694,571 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
One of the ET'ers finally had the guts to come out and say it. "Fear is a very good thing" -- if the end justifies the means, why not use fear.

The only problem is it has never really truly converted a person's soul. Nobody coming to Jesus out of pure terror is every going to be anything but one of the seeds that fell on stone, sprouted up and then as quickly, withered away. That's the kind of salvation coming to the Lord in fear and terror will always produce.
Did not Jesus command us to love God and our neighbours? How much love can one have for God if they're deathly afraid of him/see him as an ogre?
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Old 10-04-2013, 12:03 AM
 
2,652 posts, read 2,212,322 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
This is so easily explained it defies logic: The "end of this Age" Jesus was referring to was the end of the Mosaic Law Age... This is an uncontested fact. There are innumerable scholars who will attest to the fact that Jesus was speaking to the Jews [who He consistently said He came exclusively to, not gentiles] being burned in the fire and devastation that rained down upon the Jews in 70 AD during the destruction of Jerusalem by the Roman armies.
It is often the case that a modern Bible scholar couldn't find his way to the ground if you threw him off the roof. There are no uncontested facts in the Biblical text, except maybe the page numbers and the copyright date.

What exactly was the Mosaic Law Age and at what point did God tell you it ended? That's an interesting assertion. I never realized the law had been cancelled.

The fact that eternal torment is debatable and may not be correctly elucidated by the ETers does not mean you are necessarily correct. You both could be wrong. COmpletely or otherwise. I'd stay away from a lot of liberal scholars - a lot of them are actually selling critical theory - not scholarship - and they have a politcal agenda that may not necessarily involve the illumination of truth. You do realize that faith is not required to get a diploma in theology and not everyone gets one to become a pastor or spread the good news in the Brazillian rain forest.
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Old 10-04-2013, 01:03 AM
 
18,193 posts, read 16,788,691 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Led Zeppelin View Post
It is often the case that a modern Bible scholar couldn't find his way to the ground if you threw him off the roof. There are no uncontested facts in the Biblical text, except maybe the page numbers and the copyright date.

What exactly was the Mosaic Law Age and at what point did God tell you it ended? That's an interesting assertion. I never realized the law had been cancelled.

The fact that eternal torment is debatable and may not be correctly elucidated by the ETers does not mean you are necessarily correct. You both could be wrong. COmpletely or otherwise. I'd stay away from a lot of liberal scholars - a lot of them are actually selling critical theory - not scholarship - and they have a politcal agenda that may not necessarily involve the illumination of truth. You do realize that faith is not required to get a diploma in theology and not everyone gets one to become a pastor or spread the good news in the Brazillian rain forest.
So much of this depends on the translation you read. There are, say, 100 readily available translations in any Christian bookstore. 25 read, "The end of THIS AGE". Some scholars assert the Mosaic Age (The Age of animal sacrifice) ended 30 AD with a "grace period" of 40 years added by God's divine mercy to give the Jews a chance to accept Christ's sacrifice. When they didn't, precisely 40 years later the Romans decimated Jerusalem and the Jews became a people with no land for 1900-some years---the "Church Age".

Other translations say, "The end of the world". Totally different context. Now pro-eternal tormenters will say Christ wasn't referring to 70 AD and the end of the Age of Law, He was referring the end of time when all will be resurrected and judged and the wicked thrown into hellfire. Absolutely totally different interpretations that result from one one little word that translates either "age" or "world" and that gives either camp ammunition to mow down their rivals' opposing interpretation.

These different translations sometimes change the meaning of the texts so radically that people can defend their position anyway they want to. The Dispensationalists can use "end of the world"; the Preterists and universalists can use "end of this Age" as I have done.

Who's correct?

What number are you putting your chips on the Roulette Wheel this spin? Whatever number the ball lands on, they are the winners this round.

Translated: it's a crap-shoot.
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Old 10-04-2013, 01:42 PM
 
2,652 posts, read 2,212,322 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
So much of this depends on the translation you read. There are, say, 100 readily available translations in any Christian bookstore. 25 read, "The end of THIS AGE". Some scholars assert the Mosaic Age (The Age of animal sacrifice) ended 30 AD with a "grace period" of 40 years added by God's divine mercy to give the Jews a chance to accept Christ's sacrifice. When they didn't, precisely 40 years later the Romans decimated Jerusalem and the Jews became a people with no land for 1900-some years---the "Church Age".

Other translations say, "The end of the world". Totally different context. Now pro-eternal tormenters will say Christ wasn't referring to 70 AD and the end of the Age of Law, He was referring the end of time when all will be resurrected and judged and the wicked thrown into hellfire. Absolutely totally different interpretations that result from one one little word that translates either "age" or "world" and that gives either camp ammunition to mow down their rivals' opposing interpretation.

These different translations sometimes change the meaning of the texts so radically that people can defend their position anyway they want to. The Dispensationalists can use "end of the world"; the Preterists and universalists can use "end of this Age" as I have done.

Who's correct?

What number are you putting your chips on the Roulette Wheel this spin? Whatever number the ball lands on, they are the winners this round.

Translated: it's a crap-shoot.

For Jews and Muslims, it's never been "The Church Age". That term is merely an egocentric idea applied - as is human nature - by those who see themselves as the center of all things. And that's a natural human tendency. For the Mayans, it all revolves around those big stone observatories sitting in the South American rain forests. For the Muslims, it's all about the prophet, PBUH. Now, I will speak in the context of an evangelical Christian who DISSENTS from the dispensationalism common to pre-tribbers, and say I reject the idea of a "Church Age". What I read is simply Jesus the Rabbi talking about the Age of Gentiles.

Regarding the "age vs. World" issue, you won't find two people who think exactly alike. Maybe nobody really knows the truth ultimately. Maybe that's the way it's meant to be. Human beings mess everything up. They don't mean to most of the time. The Bible explains all that... depending on how you interpret it.

But one thing I strongly advise... and I do mean strongly.... you've got to bear in mind that there is a culture war going on in the West right now. And it involves politics and ideological combat and often times truth takes a back seat to power tactics and expedience. Religion plays a big, big part in this. The post-church, post monarchy era has challenged religious orthodoxy in the West. The Leninists arrested orthodox Christians. Stalin purged the Jews. Hitler gassed them. Etc. etc. But now there's a different tactic being used. Much more insidious. Less overtly threatening. If you can't kill 'em, you JOIN em.

So, the long and short of it is, you've got a lot of modern theologians who are not theologians at all, but are ideologues with a political agenda.

Last edited by Led Zeppelin; 10-04-2013 at 01:55 PM..
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Old 10-04-2013, 02:06 PM
 
18,193 posts, read 16,788,691 times
Reputation: 7424
Quote:
Originally Posted by Led Zeppelin View Post
For Jews and Muslims, it's never been "The Church Age". That term is merely an egocentric idea applied - as is human nature - by those who see themselves as the center of all things. And that's a natural human tendency. For the Mayans, it all revolves around those big stone observatories sitting in the South American rain forests. For the Muslims, it's all about the prophet, PBUH. Now, I will speak in the context of an evangelical Christian who DISSENTS from the dispensationalism common to pre-tribbers, and say I reject the idea of a "Church Age". What I read is simply Jesus the Rabbi talking about the Age of Gentiles.

Regarding the "age vs. World" issue, you won't find two people who think exactly alike. Maybe nobody really knows the truth ultimately. Maybe that's the way it's meant to be. Human beings mess everything up. They don't mean to most of the time. The Bible explains all that... depending on how you interpret it.

But one thing I strongly advise... and I do mean strongly.... you've got to bear in mind that there is a culture war going on in the West right now. And it involves politics and ideological combat and often times truth takes a back seat to power tactics and expedience. Religion plays a big, big part in this. The post-church, post monarchy era has challenged religious orthodoxy in the West. The Leninists arrested orthodox Christians. Stalin purged the Jews. Hitler gassed them. Etc. etc. But now there's a different tactic being used. Much more insidious. Less overtly threatening. If you can't kill 'em, you JOIN em.

So, the long and short of it is, you've got a lot of modern theologians who are not theologians at all, but are ideologues with a political agenda.
I couldn't agree with you more. The shutdown in the Federal govt in the US has more to do with Fundamental Evangelicals and their minority band of 60 representatives who kowtow to them than it does with politics.

As for Age vs world, well, as I said, it's debating how many angels can stand on the head of a pin. There is no definitive answer, but theologians make big bucks writing about all this stuff and it all boils down to what you choose to believe, and the emphasis is on the word, choose.
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Old 10-04-2013, 02:51 PM
 
Location: Milwaukee
1,999 posts, read 2,460,764 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
One of the ET'ers finally had the guts to come out and say it. "Fear is a very good thing" -- if the end justifies the means, why not use fear.
Yeah, like the fear of falling a sleep smoking a cigarette. I have a fear of killing some kid while driving drunk and that fear motivates me to avoid doing so if I can.

Quote:
The only problem is it has never really truly converted a person's soul. Nobody coming to Jesus out of pure terror is every going to be anything but one of the seeds that fell on stone, sprouted up and then as quickly, withered away. That's the kind of salvation coming to the Lord in fear and terror will always produce.
So what? Are we to abandon prisons and do away with a police force in the United States simply because fear arrest and incarceration has not converted every single soul in the U.S. into a law abiding and/or angelic soul.

Fear of hell can be balanced with a trust in Christ if one is obeying His commandments and growing ever closer to Him with love.

For some--like children--the first step to not doing wrong might need to be out of a motivation of fear. "You do that an d I'm going to spank you, or ground you, or take away your toys."

As one matures spiritually maybe love of Jesus surpasses fear of hell and they obey all His commands and are willing to suffer for Him out of love for him.

St. Bernadette was like that. I'm not a saint, she is. I pray to her, she doesn't pray to me. She joined the convent, I took the easy way out and I did not join the priesthood but rather the Marine Corps.

My life has broken sooooooo many of God's laws and my life has been so wicked I need to fear hell. I'd be stupid not to. And I've been stupid a while, I still am to a good degree. But my fear of hell is drawing me closer to realizing my need to repent and change my life.


Every photo of St Bernadette - YouTube
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Old 10-04-2013, 03:01 PM
 
Location: Florida
5,965 posts, read 6,987,162 times
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Well, what a surprising and delightful thread. I've only read the first post and look forward to reading the whole thread over the weekend. I'm quite surprised it hasn't been snipped and trashed by now.
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Old 10-04-2013, 03:04 PM
 
Location: Florida
5,965 posts, read 6,987,162 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pleroo View Post
While there may be some with an underlying desire to see others suffer, I can't believe that is true of most. I tend to think that fear, in some form or another, must be at the base for most. Fear of questioning God, for one. And who wouldn't be afraid of a God they've been told will fry them for eternity if they don't believe the right things?

I know fear was a huge factor for myself. I was an ET believer for most of my life and when I was presented with the alternative, I fought against the idea that ET was untrue tooth and nail. And that in spite of the fact that I suffered a lot of mental/emotional anguish over believing ET. I didn't hold onto ET because I wanted to see others suffer, but because I thought that ET was integral to my entire belief system. Any time my mind would try to extricate the ET doctrine from the rest of the things I believed, it seemed like the whole system must certainly come crashing down around me, the rug pulled out from under me. I was totally fearful of that possibility.
Yes, I'd agree with you it is fear that drives most ETers - and weak faith. One thing that I found amazing is that the doctrine of Universalism was completely hidden from me until I was in my thirties - as in, I'd never heard of it nor did I even know there was a group of Universalist Christians alive around the globe. You would think it would have been some kind of common knowledge, but somehow it was quite well suppressed and hidden.

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