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Old 01-11-2014, 07:48 PM
 
5,133 posts, read 2,529,970 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RevelationWriter View Post
Yes, The Great Multitude Are The Raptured Ones. - Rev.7:9
There is no scripture of them dying when they come out of the great tribulation.
Yes the Great Multitude [ the humble living on Earth humble 'sheep' of Matthew 25 vs 31, 32 ] come out of the great tribulation - Rev. 7 v 14 - come out to be on a righteous new Earth cleansed of sin and death.- Isaiah 25 v 8
It is Not rapture but rescue, delivered, saved on Earth - Isaiah 26 v 20
They can remain alive on Earth, and keep right on living on Earth right into the start of Jesus' 1000-year kingdom reign over Earth without having to die. They will be the foundation, or the first, to have the same opportunity that was offered to father Adam before he sinned. During Jesus millennial-long day of reigning over earth sin and death will be No more. - Rev 21 vs 4,5 so any sinning will be like Adam's deliberately sinning. No sinning will be done by accident but only willfully.
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Old 01-14-2014, 10:36 AM
 
Location: Mesa, Arizona
546 posts, read 416,338 times
Reputation: 187
When I first came to know the Lord, back in '72, I came in at a time when there was great interest in the Second Coming. It was around the time of Hal Lindsey's 'Late Great Planet Earth' being a book read by so many. In the ensuing years, I read and listened to everything that I could find about this subject. I also read and listened to the many different theories, all the way from Preterist to Universalist. But there was SO much confusion and inconsistency that I began to pray to God, "You know everything, and these things can only happen in one way, Your Way. I ask that You show me the way that it will happen, and make me ready for these things."

Eventually, I realized that most of the ideas and theories on the subject were ideas of men, and were derived in many different ways from portions of scripture. There were also the thoughts of those that claim to have heard directly from the Lord through the Holy Spirit, or even some Godly revelation. But I also realized that I needed something that had a rock solid foundation, and it had to come from someone or somewhere that I could rely fully on.

So, in the end, I turned to the one that knows the answer, and could give it to me from the whole gamut of scripture, not just portions. I realized that since scripture is inspired by God, it should bear witness to itself, and should form a unified thought throughout. And when a portion of scripture didn't bear witness to another, then either the scripture was translated incorrectly, or my ideas on it's meaning were incorrect. Scripture became to me like a giant jigsaw puzzle, first laying down the obvious pieces, like the border, and then working each piece into it's proper place. And when I placed a piece incorrectly, I had to figure out whether the piece was in the wrong place, or some of the pieces surrounding it were incorrect, in which case I had to continually revise my views until they lined up completely with scripture.

As I sit here today, my puzzle about the Second Coming is still incomplete, but I believe that I have the major portions of it laid out correctly, and I will have a complete picture before the event takes place, which was a promise that I believe that I received of the Lord.

To answer the OP's question, yes, the rapture IS Biblical. The first problem with it though, is that rapture is a word that is not in the Bible. It is a descriptive word. It's almost a fad word. It gives a very shallow definition of the event itself. Personally, I like the words 'First Resurrection', because those are the words given by John in Revelation 20:5 and 6. Other than Jesus' Resurrection, there are only 2 resurrections. The First, and then the one at the end of the thousand years, as described in these 2 verses.

Another problem is the idea of tribulation; or as some say it, The Tribulation. Some say it will be 7 years; others say 3 1/2 years of Great Tribulation, after 3 1/2 years of regular tribulation. This idea comes mostly from Daniel 9:27. When I looked at this 'tribulation' idea, a great many conflicting ideas came forward. Unfortunately, this post would go on for many, many pages if I get into detail, so I'll just try to write what I know and have found.

When trying to decipher these things, I finally had to step back and look at God's purpose behind it all. To begin with, God IS NOT in a hurry! Everything is planned out. He takes His time. From Adam to the Flood the world became increasingly corrupt and violent, but God didn't give these people any law to abide by, He just allowed them to live their lives the way they wanted, and after 1600+ years, only one family was considered 'just' enough to be carried to the next age. Noah was a man that followed the Lord, listened to Him, and did what he was told to do. Throughout the rest of time, people have always fell into corruption, and the Lord has led certain of those in the midst of this corruption, through this corruption, and some of these people, though small in numbers, were the ones that forged the Way that God has had for humanity. You can look at Moses and the Exodus, and those that fell in the Wilderness. You can look at all of the downfalls of the Hebrews in the Promised Land, and many were judged, even though a small number held to the faith. You can look at the worship at the Wilderness Tabernacle, then the Tabernacle Tent moving to Shiloh, then the center of worship moving to Solomon's Temple, Zerubbabel's Temple, and Herod's Temple. Each one was something that fell into corruption and then was begun anew. We can also look at Jesus, Who replaced Herod's Temple with the Temple of His body. All of these previous Temples were destroyed, never to be returned to the state they previously held. God doesn't look back, nor does He GO back...He allows corruption to work, but He renovates continuously. This is my answer to the Preterist AND also to those that think that God is going to use a rebuilt Temple in Israel...NOT GOING TO HAPPEN! That would be against His plan of the ages. During the times of corruption He expands His Kingdom, but at the end of each period, corruption is dealt with, and only a small remnant (of His Kingdom) moves on, and then that remnant grows, and the cycle repeats. But He NEVER goes backward. The Lord's objective is to finally rid the world of corruption.

Now we are living in another time of corruption. The world is very corrupt. Parts of the Church are very corrupt. And also, there is a remnant that holds firm to faith in Jesus. All throughout history, the remnant has held firm to Jesus, even though in the Old Testament times, they didn't know Him by name. And once again, the world is about to be judged. But it is a result of corruption. The people of the earth have done horrendous things to this planet, and many things are very close to being irreversible. But they all emanate from corruption. And in the midst of corruption, God gives the way out. And only the remnant has eyes see it and ears to hear the way. Jesus gave the answers to how to be part of the remnant that would know the way out. The way out, is to follow Him.

In one of the passages that He describes this 'Way out', He ends it with a description of what will happen to those that follow His Way. It is given in the parallel passages of Matthew 16:24-28, and Luke 9:23-27. These are the words of Jesus given by the perspective of both Luke and Matthew, and they compliment each other. The first 4 verses are THE WAY to do it. The last verse is the result of going that Way and what will take place IF you happen to be alive when He comes. This is the biggest rapture verse given in the Bible, because it is given by Jesus Himself! The last verse has a translational mistake, in that the translators used the words 'standing here' instead of 'in this way standing'. The verse should read thus: "But I tell you of a truth, there be some, in this way standing, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God." Notice that He said there would be SOME. This does not mean the whole Church. It is the remnant that follows Him. Most believers don't go that far. But this has always been the way that God does it.

Let me give an example of this. At Pentecost, only a few had the Holy Spirit fall on them. They were the core remnant. It is very necessary to have the Holy Spirit's aid in moving on with God. We can't do it on our own. So from these first people that were indwelt with a portion of the Spirit, the Spirit was given, and teaching along with the Spirit. The known world was evangelized from those beginnings in this movement. Notice though, that they only received a portion of the Spirit. They couldn't receive the fullness because everyone was living in a mortal body and soul. Now, in our time, there will be a new beginning along with a cleansing. The purpose of the First Resurrection is to start the next move. God is not going to use the whole Church to spearhead this. Just as has always been done, only the remnant will be 'changed' along with the 'dead in Christ'. The remnant are those that are alive, but they are living 'in Christ'. I don't know who they are, but I know that they will be following Jesus, listening to Him, and are 'dead to sin' while living 'IN HIM'. That is why they are able to be 'changed'. Most of the Church don't follow these words of Jesus, but it doesn't mean that they are condemned, it just means that they don't qualify to be part of the remnant. When Jesus comes, He is going to bestow the fullness of the Spirit on the remnant and this will be the 'sealing'. 'Sealing' cannot happen to a mortal. The 'change' to a new body is necessary, because the 'sealing' is permanent, and God will be entrusting His Glory to those that receive it. Then they can rule and reign. They will ONLY ever do the will of God through Jesus as they rule and reign. Going back to Jesus' instructions in Matthew 16 and Luke 9 gives us the qualifications of being one of these remnant.

Taking into account that Jesus is describing 'The Way', it is then possible to correctly decipher a number of other verses about the end times, and Daniel 9:27 is one that needs to be defined correctly in order to see these things. -Later.
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Old 01-14-2014, 12:04 PM
 
21,837 posts, read 16,682,806 times
Reputation: 8661
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumpethim View Post
When I first came to know the Lord, back in '72, I came in at a time when there was great interest in the Second Coming. It was around the time of Hal Lindsey's 'Late Great Planet Earth' being a book read by so many. In the ensuing years, I read and listened to everything that I could find about this subject. I also read and listened to the many different theories, all the way from Preterist to Universalist. But there was SO much confusion and inconsistency that I began to pray to God, "You know everything, and these things can only happen in one way, Your Way. I ask that You show me the way that it will happen, and make me ready for these things."

Eventually, I realized that most of the ideas and theories on the subject were ideas of men, and were derived in many different ways from portions of scripture. There were also the thoughts of those that claim to have heard directly from the Lord through the Holy Spirit, or even some Godly revelation. But I also realized that I needed something that had a rock solid foundation, and it had to come from someone or somewhere that I could rely fully on.

So, in the end, I turned to the one that knows the answer, and could give it to me from the whole gamut of scripture, not just portions. I realized that since scripture is inspired by God, it should bear witness to itself, and should form a unified thought throughout. And when a portion of scripture didn't bear witness to another, then either the scripture was translated incorrectly, or my ideas on it's meaning were incorrect. Scripture became to me like a giant jigsaw puzzle, first laying down the obvious pieces, like the border, and then working each piece into it's proper place. And when I placed a piece incorrectly, I had to figure out whether the piece was in the wrong place, or some of the pieces surrounding it were incorrect, in which case I had to continually revise my views until they lined up completely with scripture.

As I sit here today, my puzzle about the Second Coming is still incomplete, but I believe that I have the major portions of it laid out correctly, and I will have a complete picture before the event takes place, which was a promise that I believe that I received of the Lord.

To answer the OP's question, yes, the rapture IS Biblical. The first problem with it though, is that rapture is a word that is not in the Bible. It is a descriptive word. It's almost a fad word. It gives a very shallow definition of the event itself. Personally, I like the words 'First Resurrection', because those are the words given by John in Revelation 20:5 and 6. Other than Jesus' Resurrection, there are only 2 resurrections. The First, and then the one at the end of the thousand years, as described in these 2 verses.

Another problem is the idea of tribulation; or as some say it, The Tribulation. Some say it will be 7 years; others say 3 1/2 years of Great Tribulation, after 3 1/2 years of regular tribulation. This idea comes mostly from Daniel 9:27. When I looked at this 'tribulation' idea, a great many conflicting ideas came forward. Unfortunately, this post would go on for many, many pages if I get into detail, so I'll just try to write what I know and have found.

When trying to decipher these things, I finally had to step back and look at God's purpose behind it all. To begin with, God IS NOT in a hurry! Everything is planned out. He takes His time. From Adam to the Flood the world became increasingly corrupt and violent, but God didn't give these people any law to abide by, He just allowed them to live their lives the way they wanted, and after 1600+ years, only one family was considered 'just' enough to be carried to the next age. Noah was a man that followed the Lord, listened to Him, and did what he was told to do. Throughout the rest of time, people have always fell into corruption, and the Lord has led certain of those in the midst of this corruption, through this corruption, and some of these people, though small in numbers, were the ones that forged the Way that God has had for humanity. You can look at Moses and the Exodus, and those that fell in the Wilderness. You can look at all of the downfalls of the Hebrews in the Promised Land, and many were judged, even though a small number held to the faith. You can look at the worship at the Wilderness Tabernacle, then the Tabernacle Tent moving to Shiloh, then the center of worship moving to Solomon's Temple, Zerubbabel's Temple, and Herod's Temple. Each one was something that fell into corruption and then was begun anew. We can also look at Jesus, Who replaced Herod's Temple with the Temple of His body. All of these previous Temples were destroyed, never to be returned to the state they previously held. God doesn't look back, nor does He GO back...He allows corruption to work, but He renovates continuously. This is my answer to the Preterist AND also to those that think that God is going to use a rebuilt Temple in Israel...NOT GOING TO HAPPEN! That would be against His plan of the ages. During the times of corruption He expands His Kingdom, but at the end of each period, corruption is dealt with, and only a small remnant (of His Kingdom) moves on, and then that remnant grows, and the cycle repeats. But He NEVER goes backward. The Lord's objective is to finally rid the world of corruption.

Now we are living in another time of corruption. The world is very corrupt. Parts of the Church are very corrupt. And also, there is a remnant that holds firm to faith in Jesus. All throughout history, the remnant has held firm to Jesus, even though in the Old Testament times, they didn't know Him by name. And once again, the world is about to be judged. But it is a result of corruption. The people of the earth have done horrendous things to this planet, and many things are very close to being irreversible. But they all emanate from corruption. And in the midst of corruption, God gives the way out. And only the remnant has eyes see it and ears to hear the way. Jesus gave the answers to how to be part of the remnant that would know the way out. The way out, is to follow Him.

In one of the passages that He describes this 'Way out', He ends it with a description of what will happen to those that follow His Way. It is given in the parallel passages of Matthew 16:24-28, and Luke 9:23-27. These are the words of Jesus given by the perspective of both Luke and Matthew, and they compliment each other. The first 4 verses are THE WAY to do it. The last verse is the result of going that Way and what will take place IF you happen to be alive when He comes. This is the biggest rapture verse given in the Bible, because it is given by Jesus Himself! The last verse has a translational mistake, in that the translators used the words 'standing here' instead of 'in this way standing'. The verse should read thus: "But I tell you of a truth, there be some, in this way standing, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God." Notice that He said there would be SOME. This does not mean the whole Church. It is the remnant that follows Him. Most believers don't go that far. But this has always been the way that God does it.

Let me give an example of this. At Pentecost, only a few had the Holy Spirit fall on them. They were the core remnant. It is very necessary to have the Holy Spirit's aid in moving on with God. We can't do it on our own. So from these first people that were indwelt with a portion of the Spirit, the Spirit was given, and teaching along with the Spirit. The known world was evangelized from those beginnings in this movement. Notice though, that they only received a portion of the Spirit. They couldn't receive the fullness because everyone was living in a mortal body and soul. Now, in our time, there will be a new beginning along with a cleansing. The purpose of the First Resurrection is to start the next move. God is not going to use the whole Church to spearhead this. Just as has always been done, only the remnant will be 'changed' along with the 'dead in Christ'. The remnant are those that are alive, but they are living 'in Christ'. I don't know who they are, but I know that they will be following Jesus, listening to Him, and are 'dead to sin' while living 'IN HIM'. That is why they are able to be 'changed'. Most of the Church don't follow these words of Jesus, but it doesn't mean that they are condemned, it just means that they don't qualify to be part of the remnant. When Jesus comes, He is going to bestow the fullness of the Spirit on the remnant and this will be the 'sealing'. 'Sealing' cannot happen to a mortal. The 'change' to a new body is necessary, because the 'sealing' is permanent, and God will be entrusting His Glory to those that receive it. Then they can rule and reign. They will ONLY ever do the will of God through Jesus as they rule and reign. Going back to Jesus' instructions in Matthew 16 and Luke 9 gives us the qualifications of being one of these remnant.

Taking into account that Jesus is describing 'The Way', it is then possible to correctly decipher a number of other verses about the end times, and Daniel 9:27 is one that needs to be defined correctly in order to see these things. -Later.
You are attempting to apply Matthew 16:24-28, and Luke 9:23-27 to the rapture of the church. But they have nothing to do the church being raptured. They have to do specifically with the fact that just a few days after Jesus said ''there some of those who are standing here (and yes, that is the correct translation) who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.'', Peter, James, and John had a preview of Christ coming in His kingdom when He was transfigured just a few days later. The rapture of the church and the Second coming of Christ at the end of the Tribulation do not take place at the same time. The rapture of the church precedes the Tribulation. The Second coming of Christ takes place at the end of the Tribulation.

When the church is raptured, the ENTIRE church will be raptured, and then undergo the judgment seat of Christ in heaven to be evaluated for eternal rewards, and thereby be prepared for the marriage of the Lamb (Revelation 19:7-8.) The entire church will be in heaven for her marriage to the Lamb. The church on earth at the present time is regarded as a virgin bride awaiting the coming of her heavenly bridegroom.
2 Cor. 11:2 For I am jealous for you with a godly jealousy; for I betrothed you to one husband, so that to Christ I might present you as a pure virgin.
Jesus will not marry a partial bride. The entire church will be raptured at the same time, appear at the judgment seat of Christ (1 Corinthian 3:12-15; 2 Cor. 5:10) and be made ready for the marriage of the Lamb (Rev. 19:7-8). The church will then return to the earth with Christ at the end of the Tribulation. The church is included in Rev. 19:14 as a part of the armies which are in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, following Him on white horses.
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Old 01-14-2014, 02:31 PM
 
5,133 posts, read 2,529,970 times
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Matthew 16 vs 24 -28 to Matthew 17 v 9 shows that the transfiguration was a VISION Not a real happening.

That transfiguration VISION was preview [ like a video preview ] of Jesus' coming ' glory time ' of Matthew 25 vs 31,32 when Jesus will separate people one from another. The righteous sheep [ verse 37 ] can remain alive on earth, and keep right on living on earth right into the start of Jesus' coming 1000-year kingdom reign over earth.

The final signal of saying ' Peace ', so to speak, of 1st Thess. 5 vs 2,3 is the precursor for the coming great tribulation of Rev. 7 v 14.
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Old 01-14-2014, 05:23 PM
 
Location: Mesa, Arizona
546 posts, read 416,338 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
You are attempting to apply Matthew 16:24-28, and Luke 9:23-27 to the rapture of the church. But they have nothing to do the church being raptured. They have to do specifically with the fact that just a few days after Jesus said ''there some of those who are standing here (and yes, that is the correct translation) who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.'', Peter, James, and John had a preview of Christ coming in His kingdom when He was transfigured just a few days later. The rapture of the church and the Second coming of Christ at the end of the Tribulation do not take place at the same time. The rapture of the church precedes the Tribulation. The Second coming of Christ takes place at the end of the Tribulation.

When the church is raptured, the ENTIRE church will be raptured, and then undergo the judgment seat of Christ in heaven to be evaluated for eternal rewards, and thereby be prepared for the marriage of the Lamb (Revelation 19:7-8.) The entire church will be in heaven for her marriage to the Lamb. The church on earth at the present time is regarded as a virgin bride awaiting the coming of her heavenly bridegroom.
2 Cor. 11:2 For I am jealous for you with a godly jealousy; for I betrothed you to one husband, so that to Christ I might present you as a pure virgin.
Jesus will not marry a partial bride. The entire church will be raptured at the same time, appear at the judgment seat of Christ (1 Corinthian 3:12-15; 2 Cor. 5:10) and be made ready for the marriage of the Lamb (Rev. 19:7-8). The church will then return to the earth with Christ at the end of the Tribulation. The church is included in Rev. 19:14 as a part of the armies which are in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, following Him on white horses.
Sorry guys, but I am speaking the truth. Go and read Matt. 16:24 to 28 again. This has nothing to do with the Transfiguration in the next chapter. That's the common view. Then look at the Greek of vs 28. I can help no more than this. It IS totally about the First Resurrection.
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Old 01-14-2014, 07:46 PM
 
21,837 posts, read 16,682,806 times
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Originally Posted by trumpethim View Post
Sorry guys, but I am speaking the truth. Go and read Matt. 16:24 to 28 again. This has nothing to do with the Transfiguration in the next chapter. That's the common view. Then look at the Greek of vs 28. I can help no more than this. It IS totally about the First Resurrection.
No, you are giving your opinion. However,you are in error.

Regarding the meaning of what Jesus said when He stated that there were some standing with Him who would not taste death until they saw the Son of Man coming in His Kingdom (Matt. 16:28; Luke 9:27), there are four views. Dr. John A. Martin who did the commentary on the Book of Luke for the Bible knowledge Commentary writes concerning Luke 9:27,
Over the centuries many views on this statement have been suggested. The four most common views are these: (1) Jesus was talking about the beginning of Christian missions at Pentecost. Surely most of the apostles did see the activities on the day of Pentecost for only Judas was dead at that time. However, to identify Pentecost with the kingdom violates much of the Old Testament teaching about the kingdom. (2) Jesus was speaking abut the destruction of Jerusalem. However, it is difficult to see in what way that would even symbolize the kingdom of God. (3) Jesus meant that the disciples would not die with Him but would continue to spread the gospel after His death. But it is difficult to see how this would be related to the kingdom in light of the Old Testament with which the disciples were familiar. (4) Jesus was speaking of the three apostles who would accompany Him up the mountain of transfiguration. The transfiguration was a foretaste of the glories of the kingdom. This seems the best view. Luke linked this teaching (Luke 9:27) with the transfiguration account (vv. 28-36). [The Bible Knowledge Commentary, New Testament, An Exposition of the Scriptures by Dallas Seminary Faculty, p. 230]
Dr. Louis A. Barbieri, Jr., Professor of Theology at Moody Bible Institute, who did the commentary for the Book of Matthew for the Bible Knowledge Commentary agrees with that view as does Dr. John D. Grassmick, Professor of New Testament Studies at Dallas Seminary who did the commentary on the Book of Mark. Mark 9:1 also record the event which is in view. Now there are of course scholars who disagree. But Matthew, Mark, and Luke all place the transfiguration in the same context of Jesus' statement that some standing there would not taste death until they saw the Son of Man coming in His kingdom. Actually both Mark and Luke say '...until they see the kingdom of God.' The transfiguration is the most obvious meaning of Jesus' statement.

You said look at the Greek of Matthew 16:28. Okay, let's look at the Greek. Simply go here to see the Greek, the transliteration of the Greek, and the English. - Matthew 16:28 Interlinear: Verily I say to you, there are certain of those standing here who shall not taste of death till they may see the Son of Man coming in his reign.'

Apparently you think that because hóde (here) precedes hestōtōn [histémi] (standing) ''here standing'' instead of saying ''standing here'' that that changes the meaning. However, in Greek, word order does not matter.

The Greek/English Interlinear New Testament, Greek New Testament UBS (United Bible Societies) 4th edition, Nestle-Aland 26th edition, which represents the best in modern textual scholarship translates Matthew 16:28 as 'TRULY I SAY TO YOU THAT THERE ARE SOME OF THE ONES STANDING~HERE WHO IN NO WAY TASTE DEATH UNTIL THEY SEE THE SON - OF MAN COMING WITH THE KINGDOM OF HIM. The upper case lettering is theirs.


As for the first resurrection, that includes all believers and takes place in stages.

Stage one was the resurrection of Jesus Himself who is the first fruits (1 Cor. 15:23).

Stage two is the rapture of the church prior to the Tribulation. The entire church will be resurrected (1 Thess. 4:13-17).

Stage three is the resurrection of Old Testament saints and Tribulational martyrs when Christ returns (Rev. 20:4 regarding Tribulational martyrs).

The second resurrection is the resurrection of all unbelievers after the Millennium.


And all of this aside, as has been shown in post #93, the entire church will be raptured at the same time and before the Tribulation.
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Old 01-14-2014, 09:43 PM
 
Location: central Florida
981 posts, read 356,099 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marlbron View Post
I think it is not. And I will go through all the pro rapture verses to explain it to all who care to listen. There simply is no rapture. And the 1000 year of Christ is an event that has happened spiritually. I will prove all of this with reference to scripture.
I've deleted all your lengthy scripture quotations here to save space and to try to avoid boring the reader with repetition.

If you want to start a fist fight among Christians you only have to mention one of two controversial subjects.
One is the rapture and the other is predestination. Oddly, most of those who argue most heatedly about either subject know very little about them or where they came from. It's been my experience that the lack of knowledge about these subjects is so great as to border nearly upon theological and doctrinal illiteracy.

Where did the idea of the rapture come from? Here's a hint - it didn't come from the Bible or historical Christian doctrine. It came from America.

It began in the early years of the nineteenth century in the mind of a fellow named John Nelson Darby. Mr. Darby's initial work outlined history as a linear series of dispensations of the activity of God. The period following the death and resurrection of Christ, for example, he calls the dispensation of grace. What I'm saying here is that the notion of the rapture as a religious fiction originated in the United States. It's an American idea just like apple pie, baseball, Mickey Mouse and Kentucky bourbon albeit not nearly as useful or popular.

One of Mr. Darby's studies approached the subject of millennialism, a subject that goes back centuries in one form or another. Darby attempted to bring that particular subject up to date. In the process, he invented the rapture. There is also some debate as to how much influence a pair of female English spiritualists had in the matter as well. But I digress. Darby's eschatology became very popular throughout the rest of the century. But other ideas became popular as well and in the beginning of the twentieth century a group of AMERICAN men of faith decided to state the basic FUNDAMENTAL beliefs of American Christians. To that end they published a series of rather thick and heavy books. I've held copies in my hand and each one would rival the size of an old Manhattan phone book. Those that held to the beliefs stated therein eventually came to be called Fundamentalists.

The list of fundamental principles of the American Christian faith included Darby's original definition of the millennium as well as his rather fast and loose interpretation of the Biblical suggestion of the evacuation of the saints at the second coming of Jesus Christ. Fast and loose because there are at least three and possibly four different versions and the proponents of each will come to blows to defend their rather tenuous position as to its veracity.

But none who hold to the rapture theory realize that it's purely an American invention. Three years ago a convention of South African protestant churches rejected the rapture theory out of hand. Reasons stated were its divisive character, it's lack of efficacious application among the brethren, and it's lack of logical support. In short, it's bogus because it neither glorifies Christ nor supports the church in any meaningful way.

But if Americans love anything at all they love a good yarn. The rapture theory does indeed lend itself very well to all sorts of literature both fictional and philosophical. Tons of books, articles and even honorable mention in TV documentaries dealing with religions that have unusual plots regarding the end of human history. But the greatest reason of all to reject this childish doctrine has yet to be examined.

The rapture idea is the escapist fantasy of cowards. God hates a coward as someone once said and those that fear the future love to wrap their minds around this idea as though it were some sort of spiritual life boat. These folks are kin to those who wait upon high hills for space aliens to take them away from this cruel world. They have little faith that Christ will see them though ANY obstacle that life throws their way upon the earth so they hope for an evacuation before their thin faith is put to a real test - battle with the antiChrist.

I have written what I've written as a statement of my experience with rapture fanatics as well as my faith that Jesus can and will see me through any difficulty - as He has done for many decades already. Christ will come again. Of that I am sure. Will there be a fantastic evacuation on the order of a Star Trek beam out? I seriously doubt it. In any case Our Lord has told us to continue our work and to be vigilant, for the second coming as well as the wiles of the devil. In my humble opinion, the rapture theory is one of those devious things thrown in the path of the just in order to draw their attention away from the weightier matters of life.

and that's just me, hollering from the choir loft...
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Old 01-14-2014, 11:27 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Choir Loft View Post
I've deleted all your lengthy scripture quotations here to save space and to try to avoid boring the reader with repetition.

If you want to start a fist fight among Christians you only have to mention one of two controversial subjects.
One is the rapture and the other is predestination. Oddly, most of those who argue most heatedly about either subject know very little about them or where they came from. It's been my experience that the lack of knowledge about these subjects is so great as to border nearly upon theological and doctrinal illiteracy.

Where did the idea of the rapture come from? Here's a hint - it didn't come from the Bible or historical Christian doctrine. It came from America.

It began in the early years of the nineteenth century in the mind of a fellow named John Nelson Darby. Mr. Darby's initial work outlined history as a linear series of dispensations of the activity of God. The period following the death and resurrection of Christ, for example, he calls the dispensation of grace. What I'm saying here is that the notion of the rapture as a religious fiction originated in the United States. It's an American idea just like apple pie, baseball, Mickey Mouse and Kentucky bourbon albeit not nearly as useful or popular.

One of Mr. Darby's studies approached the subject of millennialism, a subject that goes back centuries in one form or another. Darby attempted to bring that particular subject up to date. In the process, he invented the rapture. There is also some debate as to how much influence a pair of female English spiritualists had in the matter as well. But I digress. Darby's eschatology became very popular throughout the rest of the century. But other ideas became popular as well and in the beginning of the twentieth century a group of AMERICAN men of faith decided to state the basic FUNDAMENTAL beliefs of American Christians. To that end they published a series of rather thick and heavy books. I've held copies in my hand and each one would rival the size of an old Manhattan phone book. Those that held to the beliefs stated therein eventually came to be called Fundamentalists.

The list of fundamental principles of the American Christian faith included Darby's original definition of the millennium as well as his rather fast and loose interpretation of the Biblical suggestion of the evacuation of the saints at the second coming of Jesus Christ. Fast and loose because there are at least three and possibly four different versions and the proponents of each will come to blows to defend their rather tenuous position as to its veracity.

But none who hold to the rapture theory realize that it's purely an American invention. Three years ago a convention of South African protestant churches rejected the rapture theory out of hand. Reasons stated were its divisive character, it's lack of efficacious application among the brethren, and it's lack of logical support. In short, it's bogus because it neither glorifies Christ nor supports the church in any meaningful way.

But if Americans love anything at all they love a good yarn. The rapture theory does indeed lend itself very well to all sorts of literature both fictional and philosophical. Tons of books, articles and even honorable mention in TV documentaries dealing with religions that have unusual plots regarding the end of human history. But the greatest reason of all to reject this childish doctrine has yet to be examined.

The rapture idea is the escapist fantasy of cowards. God hates a coward as someone once said and those that fear the future love to wrap their minds around this idea as though it were some sort of spiritual life boat. These folks are kin to those who wait upon high hills for space aliens to take them away from this cruel world. They have little faith that Christ will see them though ANY obstacle that life throws their way upon the earth so they hope for an evacuation before their thin faith is put to a real test - battle with the antiChrist.

I have written what I've written as a statement of my experience with rapture fanatics as well as my faith that Jesus can and will see me through any difficulty - as He has done for many decades already. Christ will come again. Of that I am sure. Will there be a fantastic evacuation on the order of a Star Trek beam out? I seriously doubt it. In any case Our Lord has told us to continue our work and to be vigilant, for the second coming as well as the wiles of the devil. In my humble opinion, the rapture theory is one of those devious things thrown in the path of the just in order to draw their attention away from the weightier matters of life.

and that's just me, hollering from the choir loft...
You said, ''Where did the idea of the rapture come from? Here's a hint - it didn't come from the Bible or historical Christian doctrine. It came from America.''


Your statement that the rapture did not come from the Bible is in error. While the word 'rapture' is not found in the Bible, the event which the word rapture describes is certainly taught in the Bible. That event is taught in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17.
1 Thess. 4:17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.
Those two words 'caught up' are the English translation of the Greek word harpazó. The Latin translates harpazó as rapturo from which we get the word 'rapture.'

And so it is seen that the term 'rapture of the church' refers to the catching up of the church which is mentioned in 1 Thessalonians 4:17.


And your statement, ''Oddly, most of those who argue most heatedly about either subject know very little about them'' quite simply disregards the fact that educated theologians understand that the Bible does teach the rapture. Here is but one example.

Dr. Thomas Ice.

Dr. Ice is Executive Director of The Pre-Trib Research Center. He founded The Center in 1994 with Dr. Tim LaHaye to research, teach, and defend the pretribulational rapture and related Bible prophecy doctrines.

Dr. Ice has co-authored about 30 books, written hundreds of articles, and is a frequent conference speaker. He has served as a pastor for 15 years. Dr. Ice has a B.A. from Howard Payne University, a Th.M. from Dallas Theological Seminary, a Ph.D. from Tyndale Theological Seminary, and has done post-doctrial work at the University of Wales in the United Kingdom. Dr. Ice lives in Justin, TX with his wife Janice. They have three grown sons.
Pre-Trib Research Center -
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Old 01-15-2014, 12:21 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Choir Loft View Post
Where did the idea of the rapture come from? Here's a hint - it didn't come from the Bible or historical Christian doctrine. It came from America. It began in the early years of the nineteenth century in the mind of a fellow named John Nelson Darby.
Though I have no dog in this fight, what I read above reminded me of writings prior to Darby which may or may not be talking of a rapture, depending on what you want to take away from it.

The first is from Ephraem (aka Ephrem or Ephraim c.306-73) or Pseudo-Ephraem (Late 4th to early 7th
century) sermon, On the Last Times.
Quote:
(30) ... Because the eye of the soul is not alert through great blindness and vain distractions, for this reason we are unable to perceive the tribulation upon us. (31) See, the holy and just are even now being chosen and gathered into the harbour of life, (32) that they might not see the tribulation and scandals which are coming upon us through our sins ... (33) They are being chosen, and we are nodding off. They are being snatched away, and we are being dragged off towards the vain world ... They are going with boldness towards God ... The Lord's coming is at the doors ... (34) The heavenly trumpet is ready to sound at God's command, and the universe to shake at its dread call, that it may rouse the dead......
The second is from Fra Dolcino (13th to 14th century) who wrote in his History of Brother Dolcino
Quote:
"........ that within those three years Dolcino himself and his followers will preach the coming of the Antichrist. And that the Antichrist was coming into this world within the bounds of the said three and a half years; and after he had come, then he [Dolcino] and his followers would be transferred into Paradise, in which are Enoch and Elijah.16 And in this way they will be preserved unharmed from the persecution of Antichrist. And that then Enoch and Elijah themselves would descend on the earth for the purpose of preaching [against] Antichrist. Then they would be killed by him or by his servants, and thus Antichrist would reign for a long time. But when the Antichrist is dead, Dolcino himself, who then would be the holy pope,17 and his perserved followers, will descend on the earth, and will preach the right faith of Christ to all, and will convert those who will be living then to the true faith of Jesus Christ.”
One can take away from these two quotes, made long prior to Darby, what one wants. For every one person who accepts this as evidence of the rapture being floated earlier than Darby, there is another who denies it.
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Old 01-15-2014, 07:14 AM
 
Location: North Carolina
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I still believe and agree with those who say there is only one second coming of Christ and that a pre-tribulation rapture, mysteriously taking all believers into the air is a fantasy, that was started by Darby.
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