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Old 01-15-2014, 07:41 AM
 
21,888 posts, read 16,707,141 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert M Prince View Post
I still believe and agree with those who say there is only one second coming of Christ and that a pre-tribulation rapture, mysteriously taking all believers into the air is a fantasy, that was started by Darby.
That is because you neither know or understand what the Bible itself says about the issue. And if you have read my posts on the pre-tribulational rapture you simply choose to disregard everything I have said.
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Old 01-15-2014, 10:00 AM
 
Location: Mesa, Arizona
546 posts, read 416,856 times
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[quote=Mike555;33023353]No, you are giving your opinion. However,you are in error.

Apparently you think that because hóde (here) precedes hestōtōn [histémi] (standing) ''here standing'' instead of saying ''standing here'' that that changes the meaning. However, in Greek, word order does not matter.
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _
Well, Mike, I'm not going to use a lot of commentaries from guys with PHD's and such. And I don't wish to argue any points. I'm just here giving information that I have found, and quite often, the things that I find are contrary to what may be taught by others.

What I did, and always do, is look up the definition of the Greek word 'wde'...and all the words in that verse, for that matter.

Primarily, it doesn't mean 'here', it means 'in this wise', or 'thus'. The lexicons that you have quoted show the definition that is 'of their opinion'. That's ok, but it isn't always the correct definition as has been shown many times. Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon,

You said, "No, you are giving your opinion. However,you are in error." Yes, I AM giving an opinion, but that doesn't mean it's an error. It might be of value if you looked a little deeper into things.
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Old 01-15-2014, 10:58 AM
 
Location: Mesa, Arizona
546 posts, read 416,856 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert M Prince View Post
I still believe and agree with those who say there is only one second coming of Christ and that a pre-tribulation rapture, mysteriously taking all believers into the air is a fantasy, that was started by Darby.
I also believe that there is but one Second Coming, and Jesus spoke of it in Matthew 24:29, Mark 13:24, 25, and Luke 21:25, 26. Note how Jesus says "AFTER the tribulation of those days". And also note that He is describing an event that is VERY physical upon the earth. There will be no doubt that it is occurring when it finally comes.

And as far as a rapture is concerned, note that it isn't everyone, it is His elect. God calls many, but few are chosen as His elect. Elect means that He CHOSE them. He ELECTS them. As in the story of Gideon, only 300 were chosen. As in the story of the wise and foolish virgins, only 5 were ready. It doesn't mean that the others were condemned. They JUST WERE NOT CHOSEN FOR THIS EVENT.

Many think that the rapture, (more correctly the First Resurrection), is an event where the Church escapes the wrath of God. That is a totally misdirected statement. The Second Coming is the advent of The Kingdom on earth. It says "AFTER THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE DAYS". The intent of God is not to have the Church escape the tribulation of those days, because this event is AFTER that.

God's intent is to give Jesus His bride and to begin her rulership with Jesus, and they are the ones that are totally devoted to Him. They are pure and clean because their life IS Him. They are the good bride that is totally in union with her husband. They totally follow His leading, and have no self-will. Because of this, they qualify to be the 'elect'. The "Bride of Christ" is not the whole Church as we know it. The elect are chosen to rule and reign with Him. God doesn't need everyone for this. Everyone cannot be an officer, or there will be no enlisted! The ones that God chooses are His business, and they are the ones that 'follow the lamb wheresoever He goes". Not everyone can qualify for this. These people are going to be 'sealed' by God, which means that there is total trust in them by God. But in order for God to fully entrust the Kingdom to these people, they need to be resurrected, because a mortal cannot inherit the Kingdom, nor can they be trusted. So in essence, the 'sealing' IS the transformation that takes place in resurrection.

Jesus gave the criteria to be qualified in Matthew 16:24-27; Luke 9:23-26; Matthew 10:37, 38; Mark 8:34-38; Luke 14:25-30; John 12:24-26.

Here are the verses that Jesus spoke of the Second Coming in His Olivet Discourse:

Matthew 24:29-31
Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.



Mark 13:24-27
But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,

And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

Luke 21:25-28And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh. (Notice that they (everyone) shall see, as opposed to lift up your heads, who are the elect.)
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Old 01-15-2014, 12:16 PM
 
21,888 posts, read 16,707,141 times
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[quote=trumpethim;33030346]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
No, you are giving your opinion. However,you are in error.

Apparently you think that because hóde (here) precedes hestōtōn [histémi] (standing) ''here standing'' instead of saying ''standing here'' that that changes the meaning. However, in Greek, word order does not matter.
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _
Well, Mike, I'm not going to use a lot of commentaries from guys with PHD's and such. And I don't wish to argue any points. I'm just here giving information that I have found, and quite often, the things that I find are contrary to what may be taught by others.

What I did, and always do, is look up the definition of the Greek word 'wde'...and all the words in that verse, for that matter.

Primarily, it doesn't mean 'here', it means 'in this wise', or 'thus'. The lexicons that you have quoted show the definition that is 'of their opinion'. That's ok, but it isn't always the correct definition as has been shown many times. Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon,

You said, "No, you are giving your opinion. However,you are in error." Yes, I AM giving an opinion, but that doesn't mean it's an error. It might be of value if you looked a little deeper into things.
Here is what you said in post #92.
In one of the passages that He describes this 'Way out', He ends it with a description of what will happen to those that follow His Way. It is given in the parallel passages of Matthew 16:24-28, and Luke 9:23-27. These are the words of Jesus given by the perspective of both Luke and Matthew, and they compliment each other. The first 4 verses are THE WAY to do it. The last verse is the result of going that Way and what will take place IF you happen to be alive when He comes. This is the biggest rapture verse given in the Bible, because it is given by Jesus Himself! The last verse has a translational mistake, in that the translators used the words 'standing here' instead of 'in this way standing'. The verse should read thus: "But I tell you of a truth, there be some, in this way standing, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God." Notice that He said there would be SOME. This does not mean the whole Church. It is the remnant that follows Him. Most believers don't go that far. But this has always been the way that God does it.
You are improperly relating Matthew 16:24-28 and its parallel passage Luke 9:23-27 to the rapture and using it to justify the partial rapture theory which is a false view of the rapture. I have already shown why the entire church will be raptured in post # 93.


You speak of looking a little deeper into things. Let's do that. Therefore look at Luke 9:27 which is a parallel verse to Matthew 16:28

Whereas Matthew 16:28 uses the word hóde which has the following meanings; 1.) so, in this manner, 2.) adverb of place;

Luke 9:27 uses the word autou which has the following meaning ; Genitive (i.e. Possessive) of autos, used as an adverb of location; properly, belonging to the same spot, i.e. In this (or that) place -- (t-)here. [Bolding mine] Strong's Greek: 847. ????? (autou) -- there, here

And the NAS New Testament Greek Lexicon concerning Autou

The NAS New Testament Greek Lexicon

Strong's Number: 847
Original Word Word Origin
autou genitive (i.e. possessive) of (846), used as an adverb of location
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
Autou None
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
ow-too' Adverb

Definition
in that place, there, here

NAS Word Usage - Total: 5
here 2, there 3

NAS Verse Count
Matthew 1
Luke 1
Acts 3

Total 5
Greek lexicon based on Thayer's and Smith's Bible Dictionary plus others; this is keyed to the large Kittel and the "Theological Dictionary of the New Testament." These files are public domain.
Autou - New Testament Greek Lexicon - New American Standard

Now let's compare the verses in which the word Autou is used.
Luke 9:27 "But I say to you truthfully, there are some of those standing here (Autou) who will not taste death until they see the kingdom of God."


Matthew 26:36 Then Jesus came with them to a place called Gethsemane, and said to His disciples, "Sit here (Autou) while I go over there and pray."

Acts 15:34 But it seemed good to Silas to remain there (Autou).

Acts 18:19 They came to Ephesus, and he left them there (Autou). Now he himself entered the synagogue and reasoned with the Jews.

Acts 21:4 After looking up the disciples, we stayed there (Autou) seven days; and they kept telling Paul through the Spirit not to set foot in Jerusalem.
In every instance in which Autou is used, including Luke 9:27, it refers to location.


And the same is true of the word hóde. In every one of the 58 times according to 'The NAS New Testament Greek Lexicon' that the word hóde is used, including Matthew 16:28, it refers to location. Although in Rev. 13:10, 18; 14:12 and 17:9 it is used metaphorically - 'in this thing'. To verify that, simply click here. - Hode - New Testament Greek Lexicon - New American Standard. It is not being used metaphorically in Matthew 16:28.


The context of those parallel passages refers to some of those who are standing there in that location . It does not refer to the way in which they are standing as you think it to be.

And again, as I showed in post #93, the entire church gets raptured. The partial rapture theory is in error. The partial rapture theory is legalism applied to the rapture and promotes the false teaching that you must deserve to be raptured. It is an attack upon the grace of God.

Last edited by Mike555; 01-15-2014 at 12:54 PM..
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Old 01-16-2014, 08:49 AM
 
Location: Mesa, Arizona
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[quote=Mike555;33032566]
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumpethim View Post

Here is what you said in post #92.
In one of the passages that He describes this 'Way out', He ends it with a description of what will happen to those that follow His Way. It is given in the parallel passages of Matthew 16:24-28, and Luke 9:23-27. These are the words of Jesus given by the perspective of both Luke and Matthew, and they compliment each other. The first 4 verses are THE WAY to do it. The last verse is the result of going that Way and what will take place IF you happen to be alive when He comes. This is the biggest rapture verse given in the Bible, because it is given by Jesus Himself! The last verse has a translational mistake, in that the translators used the words 'standing here' instead of 'in this way standing'. The verse should read thus: "But I tell you of a truth, there be some, in this way standing, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God." Notice that He said there would be SOME. This does not mean the whole Church. It is the remnant that follows Him. Most believers don't go that far. But this has always been the way that God does it.
You are improperly relating Matthew 16:24-28 and its parallel passage Luke 9:23-27 to the rapture and using it to justify the partial rapture theory which is a false view of the rapture. I have already shown why the entire church will be raptured in post # 93.


You speak of looking a little deeper into things. Let's do that. Therefore look at Luke 9:27 which is a parallel verse to Matthew 16:28

Whereas Matthew 16:28 uses the word hóde which has the following meanings; 1.) so, in this manner, 2.) adverb of place;

Luke 9:27 uses the word autou which has the following meaning ; Genitive (i.e. Possessive) of autos, used as an adverb of location; properly, belonging to the same spot, i.e. In this (or that) place -- (t-)here. [Bolding mine] Strong's Greek: 847. ????? (autou) -- there, here

And the NAS New Testament Greek Lexicon concerning Autou

The NAS New Testament Greek Lexicon

Strong's Number: 847
Original Word Word Origin
autou genitive (i.e. possessive) of (846), used as an adverb of location
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
Autou None
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
ow-too' Adverb

Definition
in that place, there, here

NAS Word Usage - Total: 5
here 2, there 3

NAS Verse Count
Matthew 1
Luke 1
Acts 3

Total 5
Greek lexicon based on Thayer's and Smith's Bible Dictionary plus others; this is keyed to the large Kittel and the "Theological Dictionary of the New Testament." These files are public domain.
Autou - New Testament Greek Lexicon - New American Standard

Now let's compare the verses in which the word Autou is used.
Luke 9:27 "But I say to you truthfully, there are some of those standing here (Autou) who will not taste death until they see the kingdom of God."


Matthew 26:36 Then Jesus came with them to a place called Gethsemane, and said to His disciples, "Sit here (Autou) while I go over there and pray."

Acts 15:34 But it seemed good to Silas to remain there (Autou).

Acts 18:19 They came to Ephesus, and he left them there (Autou). Now he himself entered the synagogue and reasoned with the Jews.

Acts 21:4 After looking up the disciples, we stayed there (Autou) seven days; and they kept telling Paul through the Spirit not to set foot in Jerusalem.
In every instance in which Autou is used, including Luke 9:27, it refers to location.


And the same is true of the word hóde. In every one of the 58 times according to 'The NAS New Testament Greek Lexicon' that the word hóde is used, including Matthew 16:28, it refers to location. Although in Rev. 13:10, 18; 14:12 and 17:9 it is used metaphorically - 'in this thing'. To verify that, simply click here. - Hode - New Testament Greek Lexicon - New American Standard. It is not being used metaphorically in Matthew 16:28.


The context of those parallel passages refers to some of those who are standing there in that location . It does not refer to the way in which they are standing as you think it to be.

And again, as I showed in post #93, the entire church gets raptured. The partial rapture theory is in error. The partial rapture theory is legalism applied to the rapture and promotes the false teaching that you must deserve to be raptured. It is an attack upon the grace of God.
What you have done here, Mike, is to use the Greek New Testament, instead of the Textus Receptus. The Greek New Testament is another step away from the older texts...in other words, they are translating from a translation, and in doing so, they are giving their interpretation of what it means. In the Textus Receptus it says: 9:27 λέγω δὲ ὑμῖν ἀληθῶς εἰσίν τινες τῶν ὧδε ἑστηκότων οἳ οὐ μὴ γεύσονται θανάτου ἕως ἂν ἴδωσιν τὴν βασιλείαν τοῦ θεοῦ There is no autou in there. The GNT changed the word 'wde' to 'autou' because they felt that it better represents what THEY think it should mean.

You can do it the way you want, but my purpose is to get closer to the original meaning of these verses. I fully realize that the meaning that I have accepted for this portion of this text is my opinion on it, just like the GNT is giving their opinion on it and I don't really care if anyone agrees or not. The GNT is opinionated in a manner that agrees with a certain train of thought, and they have changed a word to agree with that. The whole text of these Luke and Matthew passages are the words and thoughts of Jesus, and the last verses, 28 in Matthew, and 27 in Luke are part of the line of speaking and thought of Jesus. The passage is about how Jesus wants us to follow Him, and then the result of following Him is given in the last verse. It flows nicely if we allow it to. When these verses are looked at in the light of a predetermined doctrine, (the doctrine explaining how many people think the rapture will occur), then it opens up a possibility of error. In short, it is like putting God in a box. This is a major problem with all denominational thought. The Baptists see it this way; the Seventh Days see it this way; the Methodists see it this way; the Catholics see it this way; and on and on. How about we just let Jesus tell it HIS way?

In post #93, you didn't prove anything. You only told what you believe, and it falls along the lines of a certain doctrine. I am simply telling the things that I have found. I am not trying to convince anyone of anything. If they see what I am seeing, ok. If not, ok. Jesus never hit anyone over the head or tried to jamb things down anyone's throat. He gave out the information, and it was up to the people to pick it up. I'm doing the same thing. I also admit that it is MY opinion. Jesus didn't give His opinion, He gave out the truth from God. As soon as we start becoming authoritative on things that we have no authority for, we are off center. We are also trying to set up authority in an area, and that authority will not be aligned with God. This is much like being in school and having the smarter kid looking down on the less smarter kid and telling him, "You'll do it MY way"!, when actually, the smarted kid should be PATIENTLY explaining everything that he has learned and why to the less smarter, until the less smarter understands. This is love. This is God's way. The other way is force.
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Old 01-16-2014, 02:24 PM
 
Location: Central Maine
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Is Rapture really Bibilical?

No it is contrived if you mean secret rapture. Christ will only come once for his people and it won't be secret.
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Old 01-16-2014, 07:19 PM
 
21,888 posts, read 16,707,141 times
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[quote=trumpethim;33044190]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post

What you have done here, Mike, is to use the Greek New Testament, instead of the Textus Receptus. The Greek New Testament is another step away from the older texts...in other words, they are translating from a translation, and in doing so, they are giving their interpretation of what it means. In the Textus Receptus it says: 9:27 λέγω δὲ ὑμῖν ἀληθῶς εἰσίν τινες τῶν ὧδε ἑστηκότων οἳ οὐ μὴ γεύσονται θανάτου ἕως ἂν ἴδωσιν τὴν βασιλείαν τοῦ θεοῦ There is no autou in there. The GNT changed the word 'wde' to 'autou' because they felt that it better represents what THEY think it should mean.
Actually, and without getting into a discussion on whether the Alexandrian text type, or the Textus Receptus (Received Text) which is based on the Byzantine or Majority Text type, or the Majority Text type is better, the Textus Receptus is itself a Greek New Testament which used Codex Basilensis which is dated to the 12th Century, as well as a few other Greek manuscripts. The King James Bible uses the Textus Receptus.

Modern Bibles are based on the Alexandrian Text type. The Alexandrian manuscript is dated to about 450 AD which is much older or earlier than the Textus Receptus.

And the Alexandrian text has the word autou in Luke 9:27.

Besides that, as was shown regarding the word hóde which is used in Matthew 16:28, in the 58 times it is used in the New Testament, it is used with reference to location. Not with regard to standing in some particular way.


Quote:
You can do it the way you want, but my purpose is to get closer to the original meaning of these verses. I fully realize that the meaning that I have accepted for this portion of this text is my opinion on it, just like the GNT is giving their opinion on it and I don't really care if anyone agrees or not. The GNT is opinionated in a manner that agrees with a certain train of thought, and they have changed a word to agree with that. The whole text of these Luke and Matthew passages are the words and thoughts of Jesus, and the last verses, 28 in Matthew, and 27 in Luke are part of the line of speaking and thought of Jesus. The passage is about how Jesus wants us to follow Him, and then the result of following Him is given in the last verse. It flows nicely if we allow it to. When these verses are looked at in the light of a predetermined doctrine, (the doctrine explaining how many people think the rapture will occur), then it opens up a possibility of error. In short, it is like putting God in a box. This is a major problem with all denominational thought. The Baptists see it this way; the Seventh Days see it this way; the Methodists see it this way; the Catholics see it this way; and on and on. How about we just let Jesus tell it HIS way?
You are certainly allowed to have an opinion, and it is not my intention to be contentious. But I am trying to show you and whoever else is reading this that your opinion is in error. One of the rules of proper Biblical interpretation is this.
When the plain sense of Scripture makes common sense, seek no other sense; therefore, take every word, at its primary, ordinary, usual, literal meaning unless the facts of the immediate context, studied in the light of related passages and axiomatic and fundamental truths, indicate clearly otherwise. Biblical Research Studies Group-The Golden Rule of Interpretation
The plain sense of Matthew 16:28 is that Jesus was referring to the fact that there were some who were standing there who would not taste death until they saw the Son of Man coming in His Kingdom. There is no justification for interpreting what Jesus said as 'in this way standing' as you are doing in order to argue your case for a partial rapture. The passage doesn't even have anything to do with the rapture. And Matthew 16:28 is within the immediate context of the transfiguration. Some people separate the two because of the chapter break. But the chapter breaks and the verse numbers are not inspired and were added later in order to more easily locate specific Scripture.


Quote:
In post #93, you didn't prove anything. You only told what you believe, and it falls along the lines of a certain doctrine. I am simply telling the things that I have found. I am not trying to convince anyone of anything. If they see what I am seeing, ok. If not, ok. Jesus never hit anyone over the head or tried to jamb things down anyone's throat. He gave out the information, and it was up to the people to pick it up. I'm doing the same thing. I also admit that it is MY opinion. Jesus didn't give His opinion, He gave out the truth from God. As soon as we start becoming authoritative on things that we have no authority for, we are off center. We are also trying to set up authority in an area, and that authority will not be aligned with God. This is much like being in school and having the smarter kid looking down on the less smarter kid and telling him, "You'll do it MY way"!, when actually, the smarted kid should be PATIENTLY explaining everything that he has learned and why to the less smarter, until the less smarter understands. This is love. This is God's way. The other way is force.
It is Scripture which proves that the entire church will be raptured together rather then only some of the church being raptured as the partial rapture theory suggests.

In the New Testament the church is referred to in two ways. As the body of Christ, and as the virgin bride of Christ.

With regard to the body of Christ, 1 Cor. 12:13-20 says,
13] For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit. 14] For the body is not one member, but many. 15] If the foot says, "Because I am not a hand, I am not a part of the body," it is not for this reason any the less a part of the body. 16] And if the ear says, "Because I am not an eye, I am not a part of the body," it is not for this reason any the less a part of the body. 17] If the whole body were an eye, where would the hearing be? If the whole were hearing, where would the sense of smell be? 18] But now God has placed the members, each one of them, in the body, just as He desired. 19] If they were all one member, where would the body be? 20] But now there are many members, but one body.
The church, consisting of many members is but one body. And that one body will be raptured in its entirety. God is not going to amputate any part of the body and leave it behind. The church in its entirety is the body of Christ, and even unprofitable parts of the body are still part of the body and will go up in the rapture.

The church is also referred to as a virgin bride.
2 Cor. 11:2 For I am jealous for you with a godly jealousy; for I betrothed you to one husband, so that to Christ I might present you as a pure virgin.
And where does Revelation 19:7-8 show the bride to be during the Tribulation? It shows the bride in heaven.
Rev. 19:7 "Let us rejoice and be glad and give the glory to Him, for the marriage of the Lamb has come and His bride has made herself ready." 8] It was given to her to clothe herself in fine linen, bright and clean; for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints.
And how was the bride made ready? The bride was made ready at the judgment seat of Christ (1 Cor. 3:12-15; 2 Cor. 5:10) which follows the rapture of the church and precedes the marriage of the Lamb.

Jesus is not going to leave part of the body behind at the rapture, and He is not going to marry a partial bride. The entire church will be raptured prior to the Tribulation and will be in heaven during the Tribulation. No believer in Christ should ever worry about being left behind to go through the Tribulation. As Paul said in 1 Thessalonians 5:9 - For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.

The wrath to which Paul referred was within the context of the Day of the Lord which begins in the Tribulation. Prior to addressing the Day of the Lord, Paul had just spoken of the rapture of the Church in chapter 4. The salvation or deliverance of which Paul spoke was of being delivered from God's wrath which will be poured out on Israel and on the unbelieving Gentile nations during the Tribulation. The church by definition is neither one.

Now again, you certainly have a right to your opinion, but your opinion simply is not based on a proper understanding of the Scriptures.

Now with regard to taking an authoritative position, where the Bible allows for certainty about a thing, I absolutely am dogmatic in what I say. This unwillingness to take a stance based on what the Bible teaches, this 'maybe it's this or maybe it's that' attitude when the Bible clearly presents something in a certain way is not humility, it is actually arrogance.

I am patiently explaining this to whoever is willing to listen. But many are determined not to listen, and that is their choice.

The rapture of the church is pre-tribulational, and involves the entire church. And in this and other threads I have used Scripture to show this, and many refuse to objectively evaluate the facts. People have the right to believe what they choose to believe.

Last edited by Mike555; 01-16-2014 at 07:58 PM..
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Old 01-17-2014, 01:07 PM
 
Location: North Carolina
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DauntlessDan View Post
Is Rapture really Bibilical?

No it is contrived if you mean secret rapture. Christ will only come once for his people and it won't be secret.
I agree fully. The idea of sectretly removing all Christians from the earth is a fantasy. If all Christians are removed, the earth would come to a screeching halt. There would be no more preachers.to promote the glad tidings of the gospel.
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Old 01-17-2014, 01:27 PM
 
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Our Father which is in heaven, Hallowed be your name. Your kingdom come. Your will be done ON EARTH, as it is in heaven...

Jesus prayed that God's Kingdom would soon come to EARTH...not in Heaven...but that God's will and ways would be present here as it is in God's Presence. (i.e. GOD's Presence with mankind here on Earth).

"The Heavens" was a euphemism for “God’s Presence”…it was a way NOT to use the Holy Name of God, or The LORD…i.e. the tetragrammaton. Jesus was praying for God’s rule as King here upon the Earth.
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Old 01-17-2014, 01:30 PM
 
Location: Mesa, Arizona
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Hi Mike,
OK, some of the translation argument. Even though the GNT is an older manuscript, there are only about 3 copies of it, and it was copied in Alexandria, an area that was heavily Gnostic, a group believing in a number of heresies. The last 4 verses of Mark are missing from this text, yet Irenaeus and Hypolytus both from the 2nd century quoted from these verses, giving very strong evidence that they were deleted, probably by the gnostics.

There are also thousands of discrepancies in the text, yet the Textus receptus comes from more than 5000 manuscripts.

The two gentlemen that pushed in the 1800's to have the GNT used in our Bibles, were Westcott and Hort, and neither of these people were believers. I'm not a staunch KJV guy, but some of the newer bibles definitely lack a few things.

We have to use the manuscripts that we have, but a little common sense goes a long way. Personally, I lean toward the theory that the word autou was inserted when wde was removed, and I have you to thank for bringing the fact that it is different in these two manuscripts.
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