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Old 01-17-2014, 01:53 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trumpethim View Post
Hi Mike,
OK, some of the translation argument. Even though the GNT is an older manuscript, there are only about 3 copies of it, and it was copied in Alexandria, an area that was heavily Gnostic, a group believing in a number of heresies. The last 4 verses of Mark are missing from this text, yet Irenaeus and Hypolytus both from the 2nd century quoted from these verses, giving very strong evidence that they were deleted, probably by the gnostics.

There are also thousands of discrepancies in the text, yet the Textus receptus comes from more than 5000 manuscripts.

The two gentlemen that pushed in the 1800's to have the GNT used in our Bibles, were Westcott and Hort, and neither of these people were believers. I'm not a staunch KJV guy, but some of the newer bibles definitely lack a few things.

We have to use the manuscripts that we have, but a little common sense goes a long way. Personally, I lean toward the theory that the word autou was inserted when wde was removed, and I have you to thank for bringing the fact that it is different in these two manuscripts.
No, the Textus Receptus does not come from more than five thousand manuscripts. As I told you, the Textus Receptus is the result of only a few manuscripts. About five or six. The Textus Receptus is not the Majority Text. And there are discrepancies among all the manuscripts. None of which affect doctrine.

But this has nothing to do with the topic of the rapture of the church.
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Old 01-17-2014, 04:19 PM
 
Location: Mesa, Arizona
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GodWanderer View Post
Our Father which is in heaven, Hallowed be your name. Your kingdom come. Your will be done ON EARTH, as it is in heaven...

Jesus prayed that God's Kingdom would soon come to EARTH...not in Heaven...but that God's will and ways would be present here as it is in God's Presence. (i.e. GOD's Presence with mankind here on Earth).

"The Heavens" was a euphemism for “God’s Presence”…it was a way NOT to use the Holy Name of God, or The LORD…i.e. the tetragrammaton. Jesus was praying for God’s rule as King here upon the Earth.
I was going to mention the Lord's Prayer before this, and I'm glad that you did! Jesus ALWAYS spoke the truth, and in it we find many hidden gems..."Your Kingdom come..." One of the problems with this 'rapture" thing is that it is a mis-directed doctrine. God has no intention of delivering anyone from the earth during a time of trouble. That's not what the First Resurrection is about!

It's called His Coming!...Not our escaping or leaving. He is coming to initiate His Kingdom physically upon the earth. The Verse says that we will meet Him 'in the air'. This is the same air that we are sitting in right now. There is no meaning of going up to heaven. Granted, there will be a presentation to God in an official way, but these people are going to be able to transmit themselves from the heavenly dimension to our dimension as easily as changing clothes.

With the many things that will occur during His Coming, as stated by Him in the Olivet Discourse, everyone on earth is going to know that it is taking place. And the resurrection of the ones that God has chosen and made ready, (He picks them and He does the work in preparing them), will give the earth a physical proof that the Kingdom is then arrived. There won't be any guess work or secret about it! Having a resurrected person to touch will be more than enough proof of the reality of God.

The reason that only some are resurrected is because this is the beginning of another phase of God's plan to bring in the Kingdom, and He is only going to use some to initiate it. It's the same idea as what happened when Christianity was birthed on that Pentecost, when the Spirit fell on 'some' believers. (And no, there were NOT 120. That was a different event. - The disciples returned from the Ascension of Jesus and went right to the upper room. Acts 1:12-14. Then, during those days, [the 10 days between Ascension and Pentecost], Peter gave his speech to the 120 in the upper room about electing a replacement for Judas. Then, in chapter 2, the Day of Pentecost arrives, and they are all together in one accord. And who are the all? This answer is given in 2:14, where it says that 'Peter, standing with the eleven'... There were only 12 that the Tongues of fire first fell upon. This was Jesus' work. He started by training the twelve, and then the twelve received the Spirit. But they only received a measure of the Spirit. But it still was SO powerful, that much of the world was converted in the following years. Many of the other believers received the Spirit through these 12. Paul is a case in point who received the Spirit directly from Jesus, but the main thrust was for the Spirit of God to spread out from the twelve.

Those that are resurrected at the Second Coming will be those that God has chosen to rule and reign with Him. Those that will rule and reign will not even include the 'dead in Christ'. These people, whoever they are, will be the start of the new Kingdom on earth.

When Peter took account of Annanias and Saphira, it was a foretaste of the Kingdom. Those that will be ruling and reigning will be judging under the authority of God. And many similar things will occur as did happen to Annanias and Saphira. In the Kingdom, people will be allowed to live and learn of God, with God's blessing, and evidence of Who He is like never before, and there will be peace like never before, but if anyone claims to be a good representative of the Kingdom, yet are judged as committing a falsehood, (as Annanias and Saphira), then the judgment may be very swift, and it will be a judgment made by those ruling and reigning. Some of the scriptures giving evidence of this time are:

Micah 5:7,8 "And the remnant of Jacob shall be in the midst of many people as a dew from the LORD, as the showers upon the grass, that tarrieth not for man, nor waiteth for the sons of men.
And the remnant of Jacob shall be among the Gentiles in the midst of many people as a lion among the beasts of the forest, as a young lion among the flocks of sheep: who, if he go through, both treadeth down, and teareth in pieces, and none can deliver."

Psalm 2:9 "Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel."

Micah 2:12,13 "I will surely assemble, O Jacob, all of thee; I will surely gather the remnant of Israel; I will put them together as the sheep of Bozrah, as the flock in the midst of their fold: they shall make great noise by reason of the multitude of men. The breaker is come up before them: they have broken up, and have passed through the gate, and are gone out by it: and their king shall pass before them, and the LORD on the head of them."

Yes, Jacob is the covering name of this group of people, and they are the remnant of Israel, (it has nothing to do with Israel the country, but Israel, the elect of God), and they will break up the liars, cheaters, etc., because they will have passed through the gate (of resurrection), and are gone out through this resurrection, and their King (Jesus) will pass before them (at the Second Coming), and will be on the head of them.

I don't know who these people are, and I don't claim to be one of them. This is the Lord's doing. He is the One that sets things up, he is the One that makes ready. If you know what 'Jacob' really means, you'll have a good look at these people, and also have many scriptures answered.
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Old 01-17-2014, 07:34 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
No, the Textus Receptus does not come from more than five thousand manuscripts. As I told you, the Textus Receptus is the result of only a few manuscripts. About five or six. The Textus Receptus is not the Majority Text. And there are discrepancies among all the manuscripts. None of which affect doctrine.

But this has nothing to do with the topic of the rapture of the church.
I still refer to my old copy of Dr Peter Ruckman's, The Christian's Guide To Manuscript Evidence. It's not for everyone. I looked on Amazon.com to see if it is still available. There's a Kindle version. One of the 4 reviews headlines, "Just as offensive as his last book."
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Old 01-18-2014, 06:07 AM
 
Location: Mesa, Arizona
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Originally Posted by pastorALly View Post
I still refer to my old copy of Dr Peter Ruckman's, The Christian's Guide To Manuscript Evidence. It's not for everyone. I looked on Amazon.com to see if it is still available. There's a Kindle version. One of the 4 reviews headlines, "Just as offensive as his last book."
Thanks for that word, pastorALly. I went to Amazon Kindle and found that the title to that book is actually "The Christian's HANDBOOK To Manuscript Evidence". I also read the introduction, and I can see why it's considered offensive. It looks like a book that is well worth reading, but I can see where a lot of people would take offense to it. I'll have to find time to slip it into my reading schedule.
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Old 01-18-2014, 06:17 AM
 
Location: Mesa, Arizona
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One more important scripture about the First Resurrection (rapture) and it's timing that has been overlooked is 1 Cor. 15:22-24; "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power."
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Old 01-18-2014, 05:41 PM
 
Location: SE Ohio
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Originally Posted by trumpethim View Post
Micah 5:7,8 "And the remnant of Jacob shall be in the midst of many people as a dew from the LORD, as the showers upon the grass, that tarrieth not for man, nor waiteth for the sons of men.
And the remnant of Jacob shall be among the Gentiles in the midst of many people as a lion among the beasts of the forest, as a young lion among the flocks of sheep: who, if he go through, both treadeth down, and teareth in pieces, and none can deliver."

Psalm 2:9 "Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel."

Micah 2:12,13 "I will surely assemble, O Jacob, all of thee; I will surely gather the remnant of Israel; I will put them together as the sheep of Bozrah, as the flock in the midst of their fold: they shall make great noise by reason of the multitude of men. The breaker is come up before them: they have broken up, and have passed through the gate, and are gone out by it: and their king shall pass before them, and the LORD on the head of them."

Yes, Jacob is the covering name of this group of people, and they are the remnant of Israel, (it has nothing to do with Israel the country, but Israel, the elect of God), and they will break up the liars, cheaters, etc., because they will have passed through the gate (of resurrection), and are gone out through this resurrection, and their King (Jesus) will pass before them (at the Second Coming), and will be on the head of them.

I don't know who these people are, and I don't claim to be one of them. This is the Lord's doing. He is the One that sets things up, he is the One that makes ready. If you know what 'Jacob' really means, you'll have a good look at these people, and also have many scriptures answered.
Trumpethim, Thank you for your insight…it was refreshing to hear your words concerning the Kingdom that is to come.

Your reference to the Psalms and Micah is thought-provoking. The passage in Micah that you gave was prefaced with a warning to the “sun worshippers” (1:13) which was the transgression of the Northern 10 Tribes—see my post comments on the thread “Hosea Children’s” and “Sunday as the Sabbath” in this Christian forumLachish was part of the Southern Two Tribes of Judah. Their King, Amaziah of Judah , (2-Kings 14) was accounted as one of the “Righteous Kings” of Judah as his reign was filled with his struggles against Edom. His 16 year old son Azariah followed after the reign of his father. After his father’s death, Amaziah fled to Lachish. When Amaziah died the text says they “brought him on horses to Jerusalem”. The horse and chariot are symbolic language denoting the sun worship of the Edomites, and later the Northern 10 Tribes…for which they, the Northern 10 Tribes would be dispersed out of their land.

So due to the “sun worship cult” of the Northern 10 Tribes they were dispersed among the nations and, according to your reference, a “Breaker” would come to regather the 12 Tribes of Jacob (aka. the Whole House of Israel) and the restored 10 Northern Tribes would be great a number (“great noise by the multitude of Men”) and the “Breaker” would break through and open wide the sheepfold before the sheep held so long within the pen (exile).

NOW, watch the following biblical texts concerning “The BREAKER” (Hebrew ‘paratz’—meaning to ‘break up’, spread apart, ‘break through’, “breach”):

Gen 28:14 And your seed/progeny will be as the dust of the earth, and you will spread abroad [‘paratz’—break out] to the west, and to the east, and to the north, and to the south: and in you and in your seed/progeny will all the families of the earth be blessed

God is speaking to Jacob that HIS progeny would be “spread out” to the four corners of the Earth…that they would be “broken apart” or “broken out” in exile, but through that dispersion ALL the earth (land of Adam) would find blessing.

Gen 38:29-30 And it came to pass, as he [Pharez] drew back his hand, that, behold, his brother came out: and she said, How have you broken forth? This breach (‘peretz’) be upon you: therefore his name was called Pharez (“breaker” or “breach-maker”). And afterward came out his brother, that had the scarlet thread upon his hand: and his name was called Zarah (‘seed’).

Pharez (from the word ‘paratz’ or ‘breaker’) was the first to “break through” followed by his brother, Zarah. First came the ‘breach’ then the “seed/progeny” followed.

Isa 54 for more are the children of the desolate than the children of the married wife, says the LORD…For you will break forth [peretz] on the right hand and on the left; and your seed will inherit the Gentiles, and make the desolate cities to be inhabited…For your Maker is your Husband; the LORD of hosts is his name; and your REDEEMER the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth he will be called. For the LORD has called you “a woman forsaken” [unloved ‘not my people’; Lo-ammi from Hosea] and “grieved in spirit” [no-mercy; “Lo-ruhamah from Hosea], and a wife of youth, when you were refused, says your God. For a small moment have I forsaken you; but with great mercies will I gather you. In a little wrath I hid my face from you for a moment; but with everlasting kindness will I have mercy on you, says the LORD your Redeemer.

[You will need to read my post on Hosea to understand who Lo-ammi (not my People) and Lo-ruhamah (no mercy) are and what that has to do with Zarah/Pharez, seed/progeny breaking out (Jezreel)]

Matthew 11:10-15 For this is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger before your face, which will prepare thy way before you. None risen has one greater than John the Baptist…And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffers violence, and the violent take it by force. For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John. And if you will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come. He that has ears to hear, let him hear.

Matthew chapter 11 (quoted above) is making my whole point. The phrase “the Kingdom of Heaven suffers violence and the Violent take it by force” is a misleading phrase and makes this passage difficult to understand. By focusing on the Greek wordsbiazō’ (to apply force), biastēs (strong use of force) and harpazō (to carry off or carry away) we might better interpret this verse to carry its correct meaning as it would relate to the rest of scripture.

The English rendering of the verse is “the Kingdom suffers violence and violence takes it by Force”. But when do we every read the words of Jesus describing that it is through VIOLENCE that we should share His gospel? By understanding the verse this way we may surmise that “the Kingdom suffers VIOLENCE so, let’s do to others before they do to us, and by our own VIOLENCE let’s take the Kingdom for ourselves using greater force” [ie. “law of the jungle” or “might makes right”].

By the way, there exists religious thought that sees the coming “Kingdom” in just such a way and with just such anarchy and violence. It is interesting to note the Hebrew word for “anarchy type of senseless violence” is “Hamas”…and is used to describe the days preceding the deluge of Noah.

By understanding Jesus’ words concerning the coming Kingdom, which John was proclaiming was coming and was “at hand” (meaning was currently present), it is the Kingdom, itself, that is “suffering the violence.” [This should be interesting to the KJV 1611 crowd. This is how the Church/King saw God’s Kingdom on Earth, and through suffering and violence it was responsible for securing the ‘true faith’ by pushing back against apostasy.]

But by rewording the Greek rendering into a more literal meaning we get something like this:

“the Kingdom is applying strong force and by the use of strong force will ‘break out’ or ‘make a breach’”

Now the passage from Matthew is taking on a whole new meaning. Now it is NOT the Kingdom that is suffering violence but it is the Kingdom, in the process of “breaking out”, that is placing a real “force” in the current affairs of men.

This also correlates to the other writings and what they say would happen when the “breaker” or “breach-maker” comes. It would alter the affairs of ALL nations.

In ancient Israel, the shepherd would take his sheep and box them into a place for the night that would be safe. The sheepfold was often a wall or hedge made of stones which might be used as a defense.

When daybreak came, the shepherd would make a small opening in the fence or hedge. This passageway would be known as a 'door' or a 'gate'. (Notice the 'Gate' in Micah where the sheep go through). Once on the other side he would call for His sheep and they would begin to “break through” to the other side, enlarging the hole as more and more sheep followed the others and, moving 'shoulder to shoulder,' they would naturally take out more and more of the fence so that the hole or breach would be further enlarged. “The Breaker” was the Shepherd that opened the “breach”, “gate” or “door” and called out to the sheep to begin follow after him. The “breach” was progressive…it started slowly and gain momentum as the “sheep within” were roused from their sleepiness.

This is what Jesus is saying in Matthew. When the Shepherd calls it will start a process within the Kingdom that will cause a great commotion and, eventually, be such a “strong force” that it will cause the whole Kingdom to “break out” and enlarge.

This is EXACTLY what Micah, Isaiah, Ezekiel, and Hose are discussing. In Micah 5 we see God has given His people Israel up; that is until an event of great significance. What is this it?

Bozrah = literally“’sheep pen’ or ‘sheep-fold’”

Isa 34 For the indignation of the LORD is upon all nations, and his fury upon all their armies: he has utterly destroyed them, he has delivered them to the slaughter…The sword of the LORD is filled with blood…for the LORD has a sacrifice in BOZRAH, and a great slaughter in the land of Idumea… For it is the day of the LORD'S vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion.

We are told ALL of this is coming about because of the “controversy of Zion”—division of Jerusalem and the give-a-way of the Golan Heights which is the former land of birthright to Joseph/Ephraim/Northern 10 Tribes.

Isa 63 Who is this that cometh from Edom, with dyed garments from BOZRAH? this that is glorious in his apparel, travelling in the greatness of his strength? I that speak in righteousness, mighty to save. Why are you red in your apparel, and your garments like him that treads in the wine vat? I have trodden the winepress alone; and of the people there was none with me: for I will tread them in my anger, and trample them in my fury; and their blood will be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain all my raiment. For the day of vengeance is in my heart, and the year of my redeemed is come… Doubtless you are our father, though Abraham be ignorant of us, and Israel does not acknowledge us, O LORD, you are our father, our redeemer; your name is from everlasting. O LORD, why have you made us to err from your ways, and hardened our heart from your fear? Return for your servants' sake, THE TRIBES OF YOUR INHERITANCE.

The “Tribes of God’s Inheritance” that are currently not recognizable by their father Abraham and still not acknowledged by Israel, or part of the 12 Tribes of Israel…is none other than the Lost 10 Tribes of the Northern Kingdom.

Our Matthew 11 passage also states “For all the prophets and the Law prophesied until John. And if you will receive it, this is Elias, which is to come.”

“For all the prophetic Authors and the Torah/Law of Moses looked forward to the time of John, which comes with the same message of Elijah, as foretold.”—my translation.

Elijah’s message, is the same as Moses’ Law, John’s calling from the wilderness, and Jesus’ words that spoke to the “lost sheep of the house of Israel” or “the Lost 10 Tribes of the Northern Kingdom”. This area was known as Ephraim and later Samaria…the same place that Elijah fought with the wicked King Ahab and Queen Jezebel because the people were being led to worship the “baalim” or mulit-gods of the pagans. All of their messages were for the scattered Lost Tribes of Israel/Ephraim to return to the One True God, worship Him alone, and find forgiveness and restoration.

For brevity sake I will not go further into your Psalm quote except to translate from the Hebrew what these verse really say:

Nations=goyim, non-Jew; gentile
People=leom; usually referring to the Hebrews/Israelites that live in the Land of Israel/Judah
Earth=eretz; literally LAND, and usually refers to the Land of Israel…there are different Hebrew words for “Earth/World” and “Ground/Dirt”

“Why do the non-Jewish nations conspire in tumult and the people [in ‘the Land’] meditate to plan something that is without merit (vain) and worthless?

They establish their foundation [make the stand secure] The Kings of “the Land” (Israel) are judiciously together against the LORD and against His Messiah.” [the text indicates they are forming a foundation “together”—yachad. With whom do they conspire as one? With the rulers of the land OR with the non-Jewish nations?” My poor Hebrew reading thinks “the non-Jewish nations.]

Here is what they (the two groups acting in one accord) are conspiring together over:

“Let us cut their cords of cohesion apart to cast away (i.e. spread far off) their hold (trapping) on us.”
Whose bonds are so close that the unity might cause a “strangling” hold on these rulers of the Jewish and non-Jewish conspiracy?

“He who dwells in the heavens (meaning the Presence where God exists) laughs with scorn, The Master mocks them in His derision.”

“Then He will speak to them in His anger, and trouble them [terrify them] in His fierceness.”

“I, the LORD, poured anointing on My King over Zion, My Holy Mountain.”

“I declare THE STATUTE (or Ordinance—meaning a Specific One) the LORD has said me: ‘My Son are You, this day I have begotten You’”. [begotten=bringing or bearing forth out of travail]

“Ask of me and will make the non-Jewish nations your inheritance, and your possession the ends of The Land”. [ends of the land=all the Land of Israel promised to Abraham and King David…but never realized until God gives it to “His Son”]

“You will smash [literally ‘you will make evil of them’] them as a TRIBE of iron, like a pottery vessel you will shatter them [literally ‘make them fall to pieces’].

Very interesting note is that the Northern 10 Tribes were the Warrior Tribes, or Strong Men, of Israel. Without their double-portioned (birthright of Joseph), Strong Warrior brother Ephraim, the Southern 2 tribes, Judah, could not stand the onslaught of their surrounding neighbors. They, Judah, eventually fell and were also exiled. This is why the nations of the World DO NOT want the 12 tribes to rejoin in unity in their tribal Land that God gave them…they will be too strong together and their GOD will be THEIR WAR KING! [literal meaning of LORD of Hosts].

“So now Kings be wise, and accept chastisement/discipline Judges of the Land” (Israel).

“Serve the LORD with awe, so that you may rejoice when there is trembling.” [Jacob’s Trouble]

“Lovingly yearn [to caress gently and lovingly] for purity”. [There is a word used here that is only used in two more verses in the OT. It is the word “bar”. The Hebrew for “son” is “ben” not “bar”. The Aramaic word for “son” is “bar”. To make this verse say “Kiss the Son” you must assert that the whole chapter is written in Hebrew EXCEPT this one word, which is Aramaic—BAD translation.]

“Lest He [God] grow wrathful, and your way will be doomed, for blaze in a brief moment will His Anger; praiseworthy are all who trust in Him.”

Conclusion: The non-Jewish nations are conspiring together with those that control Israel/Jerusalem. They are conspiring to keep the 2 houses of Israel (Ephraim and Judah) from combining forces and reuniting the two Houses into a unified Whole House of Jacob. Their attempts are in vain! The LORD has declared a SPECIFIC STATUTE (Ordinance) that “Israel” (the Whole Unified 12 Tribes) will once again be Uniquely His Progeny…the Lost Sheep returned…the wandering children come Home…the non-Jewish nations will be razed and the fullness of the Land of Israel go to the rightful heirs.

The LORD calls to the rulers of the World to ‘wise up’ while they can and be servants of God’s Ways…because the Day of God’s Wrath, the TIME OF JACOBS TROUBLE is coming quickly.

[SHORT ANSWER: no heaven-bound get-away…it all happens right here in the “nations” and “the Land”.
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Old 01-18-2014, 06:53 PM
 
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Yes, short answer No heaven-bound get-away..... the humble living ' sheep ' on earth of Matthew 25 vs 31,32, 40 will come through the great tribulation [ Rev. 7 v 14 ] alive right here on earth, [ Isaiah 26 v 20 ] and remain alive on earth right into the start of Jesus 1000-year kingdom reign over earth.
- Rev. 22 v 2
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Old 01-18-2014, 07:32 PM
 
Location: SE Ohio
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Originally Posted by Matthew 4:4 View Post
Yes, short answer No heaven-bound get-away..... the humble living ' sheep ' on earth of Matthew 25 vs 31,32, 40 will come through the great tribulation [ Rev. 7 v 14 ] alive right here on earth, [ Isaiah 26 v 20 ] and remain alive on earth right into the start of Jesus 1000-year kingdom reign over earth.
- Rev. 22 v 2


Thank you, Mathew 4:4. I am not familiar enough with Revelation to understand how the 1000 year reign on earth is significant as you have stated. I have studied Revelation at length but mostly in tandem with the mystical writings of Kabbalah. Who ever wrote Revelation was very much aware of the Jewish Kabbalah writings. I don't read much of Zohar or Kabbalah so I am a little deficient. If you could elaborate it would be appreciated.
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Old 01-18-2014, 08:37 PM
 
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Yes, the church will be raptured or caught up into the air and taken into heaven. This is Biblically taught. See post #98.

And the rapture will be before the Tribulation. See bottom of post #107.
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Old 01-19-2014, 07:15 AM
 
Location: SE Ohio
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Default McDonald-Darby-Scofield

I don't see the words of Jesus saying anything other than his disciples should look for his bodily return to Earth. The "Church Fathers" [Hus, Waldo (Waldensians), Zwingli, Calvin] never discussed this belief.

You would have to wait for the 1900s to find this discussion with the likes of Mary McDonald and John Darby. It was the Scofield Reference Bible (1917) that popularized this teaching.

I believe in seminary things are discussed as to HOW rites or ordinances are authenticated for NT believers. They have to contain two elements: #1 Jesus had to speak of it or teach on it, and #2 Jesus' disciples had to continue its teaching.

Examples:
"the Lord's supper" was spoken of by Jesus and practiced by his disciples and was a function in the local churches from that time forward.
"Foot Washing" was something Jesus did as example, but it was not repeated (or not often enough repeated and taught) by his disciples and therefore did not make it a practice in MOST churches (there are some that use the practice).

This current discussion was unheard of for 1900 years until a woman had hallucinations which was used by a prominent local authority and then categorized and cross referenced by a Bible commentator.
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