U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
 
Old 01-26-2014, 02:00 AM
 
Location: South Africa
5,563 posts, read 6,328,755 times
Reputation: 1786

Advertisements

This doctrine is merely one example of just how messed up interpretations can get. Back in my early 30s around the time of Gulf war1.0, my biblical knowledge was very poor and this was also at a time prior to the new South Africa and the time Nelson Mandela was released from prison. The religious were all fearful that a communist take over was imminent and because there was a history of the SA churches being predominantly white excluding Gandhi from entering a white only church coupled with the nearly 3 decades of imprisonment of Mandela, all hell was about to break loose.

A buddy of mine who was extreme right wing gave me a photocopy of some Intelligence update (probably Hal Lindsey) and asking my dad what he thought about the gulf war 1.0, certain triggers were pulled and buttons pushed igniting childhood indoctrination fears of some impending return of jesus plus we were closing into the year Y2K when it all was supposed to go down.

There were other parallel issues and in a nutshell I was vulnerable, fearful and a prime candidate for coercion back into the religion I dissed at age 16. At that time 1998 was the year it was supposed to happen. The reasoning behind this was that it would all go down in NE and that would be a sign.

This American rapture doctrine was all the rave back then and as bad luck would have it, I got involved with a Friday night happy clappy crowd and they were into this nonsense in a big way.

The government had played the white guilt card right in the transition on the political front and this simply got the white xians more fearful.

I shared this "intelligence report" at one of these Friday night meet ups and one of the members had a xian video "ministry". He approached me and offered to loan me 3 videos titled "warning" of the late Barry Smith from New Zealand. It was ess a book tour selling his then tri series of end times and the last book called final notice. He died believing this or was a good con man.

I had poor knowledge of the MoB and Revelation and he was so convincing that that weekend I converted. I was convinced that 1998 would be it and I threw myself into getting up to speed on the bible and particularly in eschatology. I am now fully conversant with ALL aspects of this silly doctrine.

Over time I had many questions that no one really had answers for. The pastor offered me a position of bible teacher to adults as I was so knowledgeable even compared to him. I declined due to my doubts. I was at many different churches looking for some semblance of what I was reading in the bible yet none of them seemed to fit the picture I had formed of how it should be.

Eventually the internet came and I expanded my research to that medium and thankfully I learned the truth that all of this was man made doctrines with no foundation in anything truthful.

Ironically, the same evangelist whose tapes I watched said something that equipped me to question everything which I did.

1998, Y2K and 2007 came and went and no rapture nor tribulation. By now I was seriously losing my faith and tried all means to hold on. Universalism was my last ditch effort but that too did not work out.

In SA, the predominant origins of christianity was the Dutch Reformed church and the two sister denominations. They were into catechism and not rebirth as the pentecostals and evangelicals. The latter all had ties to the US at that time. These days they are very much independent and lost a lot of members over time, some have aligned with EU based organisations. regardless to say, this rapture teaching has gone the way of the Dodo.

It was and remains a huge con to suck people into the religion and prey on their fears. It also demonstrates just how effective childhood indoctrination can be. Thank "god" I am free of this madness and in a way it was a painful but interesting journey to discover the real origins of the religion, the bible and so on.

If I was NOT exposed to this twaddle, I may have still been a non practising member of the Dutch Reformed church and mildly agnostic. IOW a traditional christian. Now I am a full blown atheist.

20 years later, we are still here in SA, no tribulation, no banning of churches and in fact the new constitution actually protects these aspects of private life.

To give you an example of how things went down here with one of our mega churches, Rhema who is a plant of Kenneth Hagen ministries; Ray McCauley divorced his wife, remarried someone much younger and they too last I heard were in the throes of divorce. This church had your top evangelical preachers come to SA annually.

They used to have their own satellite feed on Sundays and the notable difference was that the church suddenly lost most of the white adherents and is now predominantly black. I have not watched it in 9 years.

I think SA is a tad more unforgiving of false prophets and there are many folk my age that went apostate. I suspect my last pastor is only hanging on to his church as it is a source of income that is not really hard work. They bought a property and rent out to businesses so they do not even have to rely on tithes to survive.

From my studies and research, this rapture doctrine has many explanations and they have appeared on this thread. There is no second coming to look forward to and there will be no rapture nor any end times. This aspect is merely a product of apocalyptic revivalism that emanated in the USA.

To discover just where this stuff made its appearance, you need to study up on Greek mythology. Pretty much all they believed was assimilated into what we now know as christianity. You will find parallels there and in the Norse pantheon and older pagan beliefs pertaining to the Hebrew aspects of the bible.

The claims in Revelation pertaining to the judgements in the tribulation are fanciful at best. It makes for great TV shows but that is as real as it gets. Do you really think that it is physically possible that there will 50kg (110lb) hailstones? That is the size of a sack of cement . Based on the laws of physics, meteorology, this will never happen. The amount of moisture and updraught required to overcome gravity, the onset of that process would be non conducive to human or animal life (think class 5 tornadoes over the whole planet). Water turning to blood? A third of all sea going vessels destroyed, a seven headed beast? You don't think this is a bit of overkill?

Lastly, whether you are pre trib, mid trib or post trib, the concept of deploying a mark of the beast is a physical impossibility still propagated to be the RFID chip. That is late 80s technology which is only now used to tag farm animals, items of clothing or foodstuffs and now the data dot to mark and track vehicles in SA. I mentioned in the A&E thread that even here in SA were are well into biometrics since the late 90s.

The fear of the MoB is moot as if you use a PC, a mobile, do any electronic banking, you can be tracked.

In Africa, many places have no digital records of births and deaths or population for that matter. A RFID device to buy and sell would thus require all the supporting infrastructure like cell phone towers, electricity to drive them and do on. If you have only lived in a US town or city, you take this stuff for granted. In SA we are pretty well covered by cell phone networks where people live. It is not so in the countries to the north of us. There you only get coverage near the main centres not in the remote areas in between. Some places you cannot access w/o a 4X4. It would take probably 35 years not 3.5 years to deploy anything resembling a MoB. There is no nation on earth that has the resources to do this.

The left behind series, Supernatural TV show et al. all play out in the USA where infrastructure in the smallest town is a given.

Back in the 60s when I was at school and did fire drills, you lot were doing nuke drills. This fear of the boogeyman has permeated the psyche of your people via politics and religion. It is the baby boomers there that hold and push this agenda as that fear reality lasted well into the 80s. You folk need to understand that in Africa, we never had this at all so the way religion evolved here is vastly different. Many of my generation were conscripted to fight in the cold war your country had with the then commies.

For many of us, the threat of an untimely death was very real via ambush or land mines and many of us lost friends or relatives in these pointless wars.

Lastly, the infamous Todd Bentley from Canada and his rise to infamy in Florida, being cited as the next great move of the holy spirit was well endorsed by the evangelical community till he did the dirty with his secretary. Then the folk had to publish retractions of their endorsements. I mention this as this is the expectancy of something based on false teachings, folk follow signs and wonders as the idea is that the return will be pre-empted by a huge outpouring of the holy spirit aka another revival. Well that is the one version, the other is the great falling away which covers folk like me.

There is this weird idea that unbelievers will fall prey to some anti christ guru with signs and wonders and even the elect will be duped.

The only folk duped by Todd Bentley were believers and in particular evangelical christians. The only people that fall for the likes of Benny Hinn are believers. The only people that fall for Hal Lindsey, Jack van Impe, Pat Robertson and many other charlatans are believers.

I am quite prepared to put all my assets and liquidity on the line to bet that there will NEVER be a second coming, no rapture, no tribulation, no millennial reign.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 01-26-2014, 08:00 AM
 
Location: central Florida
987 posts, read 358,850 times
Reputation: 259
The rapture theory arose from interpretations and debate on the nature of the millennium, the thousand year reign of Christ following His predicted return to earth. The theory was first published in the first half of the nineteenth century by John Nelson Darby as a tangential discussion in his work on a dispensational view of history, which included the millennium. Since that time rapturism has expanded and changed due to positions on the theory. At present there are four primary versions of the rapture theory (pre, mid, post tribulation and post millennium). Adherents of the theory are all emotionally, not logically, tied to defense of their position. Every one of them uses scripture to justify their arguments.

It is illogical to assume that scripture validates every separate and distinct form of the rapture theory.

Those who seek an accurate interpretation of scripture MUST closely examine the meaning and context of scripture references used to justify the rapture theory. Here's an example of abuse of scripture:

Luke 17:34-37 is often used to describe angelic evacuation of the saints from a world of trouble.

But does it really? Take another look, perhaps for the first time.

In the last story of the seventeenth chapter of the gospel of Luke, Jesus is quoted as predicting a dark time in the world. Read verses thirty-four through thirty-six.

"I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.
Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left."


This passage is purported to be a description of the rapture (nobody knows which rapture, but its used anyway).

Jesus' disciples wanted to know where these missing people were taken. What was their ultimate destination? Jesus' answer is not as pretty as rapturists prefer to believe. Take a close look at verse thirty seven, the last verse of the chapter.

"And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the vultures be gathered together."

The vulture is an unclean bird as defined by Mosaic law. It subsists on carrion. The passage may also be translated as eagles, but eagles are also an unclean bird and also dine on carrion when live prey isn't available. The bird, therefore, is ALWAYS associated with death and the remains of the dead.

Jesus included the last explanation as a sort of self-interpretation of the fate of missing people. If the destiny of the missing people was among the dead, as is clearly indicated, then those who were taken weren't evacuated by angels.

I submit that Jesus was predicting selective arrest by earthly authorities, NOT angelic evacuation to heavenly reward.

Yet rapturists ignore Biblical references, definitions, laws and even Jesus' meaning clearly stated. They somehow interpret the unclean bird to be an angelic visitation. Not accurate, but a good extension of a fantasy which has already departed from tradition and consistent interpretation of scripture. The rapture theory is not prophecy so much as it is heresy.

and that's just me, hollering from the choir loft...
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-26-2014, 09:29 AM
 
Location: South Africa
5,563 posts, read 6,328,755 times
Reputation: 1786
I think one of the most perverse ideas is that non believers will be the ones enlisted into satan's army to enforce the MoB and lop of heads of the left behind folk just b/c they will not bow down to "our dark lord and master"

In my case, this would require me to believe in a satanic entity, dismiss all rational thought and buy into some antichrist dude. This is crazy as the last thing I would do in an apocalyptic scenario is take another man's life simply based on his belief.

Hollywood has exploited this scenario and I do not know if folk are this gullible to think atheists would even contemplate this.

Based on how history has panned out, it rather seems like fringe xian groups would be more up to the task than heathens.

Since my deconversion, I have not forgotten all that I learned and I would imagine this for many other atheists too. I have not suddenly in my godless state started taking the lord's name in vain and my worst swear word "bloody" even passes the CD censorship.

I am really more concerned with the army of Joel types who IMO with access to nukes in the states could indeed bring about an apocalyptic scenario in their gripes with muslims. There really is no point to everyone on the planet dying from nuke fallout b/c of differences in invisible gods.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-26-2014, 10:36 AM
 
21,992 posts, read 16,760,306 times
Reputation: 8767
Quote:
Originally Posted by Choir Loft View Post
The rapture theory arose from interpretations and debate on the nature of the millennium, the thousand year reign of Christ following His predicted return to earth. The theory was first published in the first half of the nineteenth century by John Nelson Darby as a tangential discussion in his work on a dispensational view of history, which included the millennium. Since that time rapturism has expanded and changed due to positions on the theory. At present there are four primary versions of the rapture theory (pre, mid, post tribulation and post millennium). Adherents of the theory are all emotionally, not logically, tied to defense of their position. Every one of them uses scripture to justify their arguments.

It is illogical to assume that scripture validates every separate and distinct form of the rapture theory.

Those who seek an accurate interpretation of scripture MUST closely examine the meaning and context of scripture references used to justify the rapture theory. Here's an example of abuse of scripture:

Luke 17:34-37 is often used to describe angelic evacuation of the saints from a world of trouble.

But does it really? Take another look, perhaps for the first time.

In the last story of the seventeenth chapter of the gospel of Luke, Jesus is quoted as predicting a dark time in the world. Read verses thirty-four through thirty-six.

"I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.
Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left."


This passage is purported to be a description of the rapture (nobody knows which rapture, but its used anyway).

Jesus' disciples wanted to know where these missing people were taken. What was their ultimate destination? Jesus' answer is not as pretty as rapturists prefer to believe. Take a close look at verse thirty seven, the last verse of the chapter.

"And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the vultures be gathered together."

The vulture is an unclean bird as defined by Mosaic law. It subsists on carrion. The passage may also be translated as eagles, but eagles are also an unclean bird and also dine on carrion when live prey isn't available. The bird, therefore, is ALWAYS associated with death and the remains of the dead.

Jesus included the last explanation as a sort of self-interpretation of the fate of missing people. If the destiny of the missing people was among the dead, as is clearly indicated, then those who were taken weren't evacuated by angels.

I submit that Jesus was predicting selective arrest by earthly authorities, NOT angelic evacuation to heavenly reward.

Yet rapturists ignore Biblical references, definitions, laws and even Jesus' meaning clearly stated. They somehow interpret the unclean bird to be an angelic visitation. Not accurate, but a good extension of a fantasy which has already departed from tradition and consistent interpretation of scripture. The rapture theory is not prophecy so much as it is heresy.

and that's just me, hollering from the choir loft...
It seems that no matter how many times it gets stated that the rapture is clearly mentioned in the Bible, some people insist on maintaining that the rapture is a theory and that Darby originated it. It is not a theory. It is clearly taught in the Bible. And here is the proof . . . AGAIN!!!
1 Thess. 4:13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. 14] For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15] For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16] For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17] Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.
Now, do you see that phrase 'caught up' in 1 Thess. 4:17? That phrase 'caught up' is a translation of the Greek word harpazó which means to seize or snatch up. The Latin translates harpazó as 'rapturo' from which we get the English word 'rapture.'

HELP'S Word Studies
726 harpázō – properly, seize by force; snatch up, suddenly and decisively – like someone seizing bounty (spoil, a prize); to take by an open display of force (i.e. not covertly or secretly).
Strong's Greek: 726. ?????? (harpazó) -- to seize, catch up, snatch away

1 Thess. 4:17 is absolutely speaking of the rapture or catching up of the church at which time the resurrection of the church will take place. And the body will be physically resurrected in a state or condition of incorruptibility and immortality. It will not be an immaterial spirit body, but a body of flesh and bone which because it will be a glorified body is called a spiritual body, but it will be very much a physical body.

And the rapture and resurrection of the church will take place before the Tribulation begins. Possibly even a year or two before the Tribulation begins.


Luke 17:34-37 which you quoted above, is not the rapture of the church. It is the removal of unbelievers from the earth when Christ returns. The Millennial kingdom will not begin with unbelievers. Only believers will be in the Millennium when it begins. As the human race repopulates the earth, people will be born who will not receive Christ as Savior, but before the Millennial kingdom is established, all unbelievers will be taken off the earth and sent into either the 'Torments' side of Hades, or into the lake of fire.

Concerning Luke 17:34-36 the Bible Knowledge Commentary states,
17:34-36. Jesus stated that some will be taken into judgment. In some parts of the world it will be nighttime (people will be in . . . bed); in other parts it will be daytime (people will be doing daily tasks, such as grinding grain). The taking away means taken into judgment, not taken up in the Rapture. The ones left are those who will enter into the kingdom. (Some mss. add the words of v. 36, "Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left." Most likely the verse was inserted to harmonize this passage with Matt. 24:40.) [The Bible Knowledge Commentary, New Testament, An Exposition of the Scriptures by Dallas Seminary, p. 249]
Dallas Theological Seminary is pre-millennial, and pre-tribulational regarding the rapture of the church.

Luke 17:34-35 is parallel with Matthew 24:40-41. Matthew chapters 24-25 are the Olivet Discourse and speak of things which will take place during the Tribulation and upon Christ's return. When Christ returns at the end of the Tribulation unbelievers will be taken in judgment.

The rapture of the church will have happened before the Tribulation ever begins. And again, the rapture or catching up of the church is clearly stated in 1 Thess. 4:13-17 and so is not a theory which originated with Darby or with anyone else.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-27-2014, 08:34 AM
 
2,797 posts, read 2,287,083 times
Reputation: 572
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthew 4:4 View Post
Yes the Great Multitude [ the humble living on Earth humble 'sheep' of Matthew 25 vs 31, 32 ] come out of the great tribulation - Rev. 7 v 14 - come out to be on a righteous new Earth cleansed of sin and death.- Isaiah 25 v 8
It is Not rapture but rescue, delivered, saved on Earth - Isaiah 26 v 20
They can remain alive on Earth, and keep right on living on Earth right into the start of Jesus' 1000-year kingdom reign over Earth without having to die. They will be the foundation, or the first, to have the same opportunity that was offered to father Adam before he sinned. During Jesus millennial-long day of reigning over earth sin and death will be No more. - Rev 21 vs 4,5 so any sinning will be like Adam's deliberately sinning. No sinning will be done by accident but only willfully.

~ The Great Multitude which will marry The Lamb standing before The Throne which God sits on and before The Lamb in white Robes they washed in The Lamb's blood after they came out of the great tribulation with palms in hand? After all where else would "The Marriage Of The Lamb" take place?
Rev.7:9-17

They don't go out no more from the Temple of God which is New Jerusalem in heaven.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-27-2014, 09:15 AM
 
5,199 posts, read 2,547,776 times
Reputation: 389
Quote:
Originally Posted by RevelationWriter View Post
~ The Great Multitude which will marry The Lamb standing before The Throne which God sits on and before The Lamb in white Robes they washed in The Lamb's blood after they came out of the great tribulation with palms in hand? After all where else would "The Marriage Of The Lamb" take place?
Rev.7:9-17
They don't go out no more from the Temple of God which is New Jerusalem in heaven.
The living on earth great multitude, or the living sheep on earth of Matthew 25 vs 31,32, are alive on earth Not heaven.

Angels stand around the throne [ Rev. 7 v 11 ] Not living people. God and the Lamb are located where the throne is.

Psalm 132 v 7 talks about we will worship at > God's footstool.
Isaiah 66 v 1 says heaven is God's throne, and earth is > God's footstool.

Please notice the 'sheep' of Matt. 25 vs 31,32 are alive on earth, and they are Not Jesus spiritual ' brothers' of verse 40.

Jesus talks about a ' little flock ' at Luke 12 v 32 and also having ' other sheep ' at John 10 v 16
The ' bride ' is a sealed number of those in heaven.- Rev. 14 v 1.
That ' little flock ' or smaller number is the ' sealed ' number of Rev. 7 vs 3,4,5,6,7, and 8.
Whereas it is the great multitude which [ No one can number ] according to verse 9 alive on God's footstool earth.

The sheep remain alive on earth. It is the ' brothers ' who are called to heaven.- 1st Cor. 15 v 50.
The ' brothers ' are the first fruits resurrected to heaven.- 1st Cor. 15 vs 20,23
They are ' first fruits ' having a first or earlier resurrection to heaven.- Rev. 20 v 6; 5 vs 9,10; 2 v 10
They reign as heavenly kings and priests with Jesus for a 1000 years over earth, or over earthly subjects of God's kingdom.

We do Not pray to be taken away to the kingdom, nor pray to be taken up to the kingdom, but ' thy kingdom come '.
' God's will to be done here on earth ' as it is in heaven.
There is No crime in heaven, No pollution, No violence, No sickness, No death in heaven so we are praying for those same good heavenly conditions to come to earth. - Rev. 22 v 2; 21 vs 4,5; Isaiah 25 v 8

Jesus' millennium-long day of reigning over earth will bring blessings to earth - Rev. 22 v 2 - starting with the living great multitude of living sheep, so to speak, who are alive on God's footstool [ earth ] - Psalm 72 v 8
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-27-2014, 09:16 AM
 
Location: Eastern Kentucky
1 posts, read 630 times
Reputation: 10
Is the rapture really biblical? Hmm. I would it assume it would suppose to what the person is implying by rapture. I recall reading in the bible that those in Christ that remain alive will be caught up to meet him in the air. Then I remembered reading in the old testament how they would be taken to Israel with him. So if one would imply rapture as being caught up to be with the Lord where he is taking them then I suppose it is biblical. If someone would imply that rapture means taken up to heaven to live with God then I would have to better note that their version of the rapture is not biblical at all.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-27-2014, 09:33 AM
 
5,199 posts, read 2,547,776 times
Reputation: 389
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darksimps View Post
Is the rapture really biblical? Hmm. I would it assume it would suppose to what the person is implying by rapture. I recall reading in the bible that those in Christ that remain alive will be caught up to meet him in the air. Then I remembered reading in the old testament how they would be taken to Israel with him. So if one would imply rapture as being caught up to be with the Lord where he is taking them then I suppose it is biblical. If someone would imply that rapture means taken up to heaven to live with God then I would have to better note that their version of the rapture is not biblical at all.
Is it rapture or rather resurrection? 1st Thess. 4 vs 13-17 is talking about Jesus spiritual ' brothers' being resurrected.

[ Jesus ' spiritual ' brothers have a first or earlier resurrection to heaven. - Rev. 20 v 6; 1st Cor. 15 v 50 ]

'Flesh ' [ physical ] according to 1st Cor. 15 v 50 can Not inherit the kingdom.

When was Jesus caught up in the clouds according to Acts 1 v 9 ?
Jesus ascended to heaven after the dead Jesus was resurrected, and Not in a physical body.- 1st Peter 3 v 18 B.

Those ' caught up ones ' of 1st Thess. 4 v 17 do Not sleep in death as the rest [ Ecc. 9 v 5; John 11 vs 11-14 ] but they are resurrected right away at death. They do Not spend time in the grave as the dead Jesus did.- Acts 2 vs 27,31.
Not sleep in death [ Psalms 115 v 17; 146 v 4 ] because they are part of those who ' rise ' [ be resurrected ] first.
- 1st Cor 15 vs 20,23 - they are ' resurrected first fruits ' who have a first or earlier resurrection to heaven to reign with Christ for a thousand years over earth, or over earthly subject of God's kingdom- Rev. 5 vs 9,10; Psalms 72 v 8; 37 vs 11,29
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-27-2014, 10:12 AM
 
21,992 posts, read 16,760,306 times
Reputation: 8767
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darksimps View Post
Is the rapture really biblical? Hmm. I would it assume it would suppose to what the person is implying by rapture. I recall reading in the bible that those in Christ that remain alive will be caught up to meet him in the air. Then I remembered reading in the old testament how they would be taken to Israel with him. So if one would imply rapture as being caught up to be with the Lord where he is taking them then I suppose it is biblical. If someone would imply that rapture means taken up to heaven to live with God then I would have to better note that their version of the rapture is not biblical at all.
You error in assuming that Israel is the Church. It is not. The church will be raptured or caught up and taken into heaven before the Tribulation begins. Revelation 19:7-8 shows the entire church (referred to as the bride) in heaven while the Tribulation is taking place on the earth.

When Christ returns to the earth at the end of the Tribulation the church will return with Him. And all the Jews who have survived the Tribulation will be gathered from around the world and taken to Israel.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-27-2014, 10:15 AM
 
21,992 posts, read 16,760,306 times
Reputation: 8767
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthew 4:4 View Post
Is it rapture or rather resurrection? 1st Thess. 4 vs 13-17 is talking about Jesus spiritual ' brothers' being resurrected.

[ Jesus ' spiritual ' brothers have a first or earlier resurrection to heaven. - Rev. 20 v 6; 1st Cor. 15 v 50 ]

'Flesh ' [ physical ] according to 1st Cor. 15 v 50 can Not inherit the kingdom.

When was Jesus caught up in the clouds according to Acts 1 v 9 ?
Jesus ascended to heaven after the dead Jesus was resurrected, and Not in a physical body.- 1st Peter 3 v 18 B.

Those ' caught up ones ' of 1st Thess. 4 v 17 do Not sleep in death as the rest [ Ecc. 9 v 5; John 11 vs 11-14 ] but they are resurrected right away at death. They do Not spend time in the grave as the dead Jesus did.- Acts 2 vs 27,31.
Not sleep in death [ Psalms 115 v 17; 146 v 4 ] because they are part of those who ' rise ' [ be resurrected ] first.
- 1st Cor 15 vs 20,23 - they are ' resurrected first fruits ' who have a first or earlier resurrection to heaven to reign with Christ for a thousand years over earth, or over earthly subject of God's kingdom- Rev. 5 vs 9,10; Psalms 72 v 8; 37 vs 11,29
I don't know why you won't listen. I have shown you over and over that the resurrection of the church takes place at the rapture of the Church. Read what I said in post #144.

And Jesus was bodily and physically resurrected, and He ascended into heaven as such. The resurrected body while physical is a glorified body which is incorruptible and immortal. But it is a body of flesh and bone as Jesus demonstrated to the disciples.
Luke 24:39 "See My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself; touch Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have."
Jesus ascended into heaven in the glorified physically resurrected body that He showed the disciples to be flesh and bone.

Last edited by Mike555; 01-27-2014 at 10:25 AM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
Similar Threads
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top