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Old 01-30-2014, 09:04 PM
 
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[quote=Mike555;33260640]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert M Prince View Post

Here's the thing however. As stated, the words 'caught up' in 1 Thess. 4:17 are a translation of the the Greek word harpazó which means to seize by force; to snatch up. The Latin translates harpazó as 'rapturo' from which we get the word rapture. 1 Thess. 4:13-17 is the rapture. It is the rapturo, the harpazó, the catching up or snatching away of the church.

When Christ returns, the church will return with Him, and all the Jews in the world will be gathered to Israel. Old Testament saints and Tribulational martyrs will be resurrected, and all Gentile survivors of the Tribulation will be judged at the judgment of the Nations (Matthew 25:32-46). The sheep (believers) will go into the earthly Millennial kingdom, and the goats (unbelievers) will go into the eternal fire.

The church has to be removed from the earth before the Tribulation can begin. The Tribulation is God's judgment on Israel and on the unbelieving Gentile nations. The church is neither one but is the bride of Christ and must be removed from the earth and be evaluated for the purpose of rewards at the judgment seat of Christ and then be wed to Christ. All of this will take place in heaven before returning with Christ at the end of the Tribulation.




The purpose of the Tribulation is to make the Jews realize that Jesus is the Messiah and ask Him to return, at which time He will. It is also to judge the Gentile

"To Seize By Force" (?)

"And He will send His Angels with the great sound of a trumpet and
they will GATHER Together His elect from the 4 winds." - Matt.24:31

~ No all the saints will not be removed from the earth before the great tribulation can begin?
Because The Great Multitude will come out of the great tribulation. - Rev.7:14
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Old 01-30-2014, 10:50 PM
 
21,862 posts, read 16,696,582 times
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[quote=RevelationWriter;33261637]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post


"To Seize By Force" (?)

"And He will send His Angels with the great sound of a trumpet and
they will GATHER Together His elect from the 4 winds." - Matt.24:31

~ No all the saints will not be removed from the earth before the great tribulation can begin?
Because The Great Multitude will come out of the great tribulation. - Rev.7:14
You are confusing the Tribulational saints with the church. They are two different groups of people. The church will be removed from the earth in the rapture before the Tribulation, and then return with Christ to the earth at the end of the Tribulation. All the Jews from wherever they are on the earth will be gathered to Israel when Christ returns. They will not be removed from the earth.
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Old 03-02-2014, 11:08 AM
 
1,534 posts, read 1,643,879 times
Reputation: 267
I came across those old thread and would like to make some comments about it.

This is a common passage used to prove there's a rapture:

Quote:
and the dead in Christ will rise first
[my emphasis]

When I was a young believer I was told/taught that upon death believers went to heaven. At the time I had no reason to doubt it, but when I began to read the Scriptures for myself and I noticed several things, that when put together, puzzled me:

Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Dan. 12:1,2
1 ¶ And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Then there's the story of Mary/Martha's brother Lazarus' death whom Christ resurrected from where? Heaven? No, from the grave: Joh 11

41 Then they took away the stone from the place where the dead was laid. And Jesus lifted up his eyes, and said, Father, I thank thee that thou hast heard me.
42 And I knew that thou hearest me always: but because of the people which stand by I said it, that they may believe that thou hast sent me.
43 And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth.

This was the beginning of my understanding that the 'dead' aren't in heaven [or sent to hell fire], but in the grave asleep waiting for the resurrection at the *last day.

*Christ's own words in regards to the last day:

Joh 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Joh 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will *raise him up at the last day

*anistemi

Note also Martha's reply to Christ in Joh. 11:

24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at *the last day.

And His reply back to her in v. 25:

Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

*What did Christ mean by the last day?

He says again that eternal life is after the resurrection or The Resurrection of the Righteous,
[see Dan. 12:1,2 above]

Acts 24:15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

Luke 14:
12 Then said he also to him that bade him, When thou makest a dinner or a supper, call not thy friends, nor thy brethren, neither thy kinsmen, nor thy rich neighbours; lest they also bid thee again, and a recompence be made thee.
13 But when thou makest a feast, call the poor, the maimed, the lame, the blind:
14 And thou shalt be blessed; for they cannot recompense thee: for thou shalt be recompensed at the resurrection of the just.

These passages showed me this did not happen at the time of one's death, but at the time span know as Aharit HaYamim (The End of DAYS ) which is just before Christ's second coming.

BTW, it makes for a very interseting study to find all the passages that speak of the last day, end of days, etc.

Continuing...

Next I rea in 1 Corin. 15

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

32 If after the manner of men I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantageth it me, if the dead *rise not? let us eat and drink; for to morrow we die.

*another example of egeiro

Mark 16:And he saith unto them, Be not affrighted: Ye seek Jesus of Nazareth, which was crucified: he is risen; [egeiro] he is not here: behold the place where they laid him.

Then I was told there is a rapture and I've already mentioned in another thread how I came to realize this 'theory' isn't correct so I won't repeat that, but when I thought about 'going to heaven' when we die I couldn't reconcile that with the quote at the very top of this post: "the dead in Christ shall rise first." Why? this word rise is the exact same word as used here [and many other places]:

1 Thess. 1:10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

So I asked myself this question. "If believers are in heaven didn't they then have to be resurrected to different body to enter a spiritual realm? And if so then why do the dead in Christ have to be raised from the dead again/twice?(supposedly at a rapture) " The answer should be obvious. They don't. Believers are resurrected or changed at Christ's second coming. ONE coming not 1/1/2.

Again I say, after many years of study became obvious to me...believers aren't resurrected/changed twice, but once at Christ's second coming.


So just for the record I'm not a preterist, universalist, a JW, Morman, or any such thing. I'm just a believer who God has given a 'holy curiosity' to find the truth and be set free from men's traditions.

Last edited by mshipmate; 03-02-2014 at 11:19 AM.. Reason: correct spelling
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Old 03-02-2014, 02:57 PM
Zur
 
949 posts, read 649,226 times
Reputation: 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by mshipmate View Post
I came across those old thread and would like to make some comments about it.

This is a common passage used to prove there's a rapture:

[my emphasis]

When I was a young believer I was told/taught that upon death believers went to heaven. At the time I had no reason to doubt it, but when I began to read the Scriptures for myself and I noticed several things, that when put together, puzzled me:

Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Dan. 12:1,2
1 ¶ And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Then there's the story of Mary/Martha's brother Lazarus' death whom Christ resurrected from where? Heaven? No, from the grave: Joh 11

41 Then they took away the stone from the place where the dead was laid. And Jesus lifted up his eyes, and said, Father, I thank thee that thou hast heard me.
42 And I knew that thou hearest me always: but because of the people which stand by I said it, that they may believe that thou hast sent me.
43 And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth.

This was the beginning of my understanding that the 'dead' aren't in heaven [or sent to hell fire], but in the grave asleep waiting for the resurrection at the *last day.

*Christ's own words in regards to the last day:

Joh 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Joh 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will *raise him up at the last day

*anistemi

Note also Martha's reply to Christ in Joh. 11:

24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at *the last day.

And His reply back to her in v. 25:

Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

*What did Christ mean by the last day?

He says again that eternal life is after the resurrection or The Resurrection of the Righteous,
[see Dan. 12:1,2 above]

Acts 24:15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

Luke 14:
12 Then said he also to him that bade him, When thou makest a dinner or a supper, call not thy friends, nor thy brethren, neither thy kinsmen, nor thy rich neighbours; lest they also bid thee again, and a recompence be made thee.
13 But when thou makest a feast, call the poor, the maimed, the lame, the blind:
14 And thou shalt be blessed; for they cannot recompense thee: for thou shalt be recompensed at the resurrection of the just.

These passages showed me this did not happen at the time of one's death, but at the time span know as Aharit HaYamim (The End of DAYS ) which is just before Christ's second coming.

BTW, it makes for a very interseting study to find all the passages that speak of the last day, end of days, etc.

Continuing...

Next I rea in 1 Corin. 15

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

32 If after the manner of men I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantageth it me, if the dead *rise not? let us eat and drink; for to morrow we die.

*another example of egeiro

Mark 16:And he saith unto them, Be not affrighted: Ye seek Jesus of Nazareth, which was crucified: he is risen; [egeiro] he is not here: behold the place where they laid him.

Then I was told there is a rapture and I've already mentioned in another thread how I came to realize this 'theory' isn't correct so I won't repeat that, but when I thought about 'going to heaven' when we die I couldn't reconcile that with the quote at the very top of this post: "the dead in Christ shall rise first." Why? this word rise is the exact same word as used here [and many other places]:

1 Thess. 1:10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

So I asked myself this question. "If believers are in heaven didn't they then have to be resurrected to different body to enter a spiritual realm? And if so then why do the dead in Christ have to be raised from the dead again/twice?(supposedly at a rapture) " The answer should be obvious. They don't. Believers are resurrected or changed at Christ's second coming. ONE coming not 1/1/2.

Again I say, after many years of study became obvious to me...believers aren't resurrected/changed twice, but once at Christ's second coming.


So just for the record I'm not a preterist, universalist, a JW, Morman, or any such thing. I'm just a believer who God has given a 'holy curiosity' to find the truth and be set free from men's traditions.
There are 3 resurrections of the just, Paul gives us in 1. Cor 15 a picture of an harvest. After His resurrection the first fruits, which were the just of the OT saints. Than at His second coming the main harvest, they that died in Christ (1 Th 4:14). They were with Christ in Heaven. Their spiritual body (soul and spirit went at death to Heaven to be with the LORD as Paul said, the dead body goes to the grave. The body is resurrected and changed (First resurrection and Rapture). Than 1000 years later the rest (all), that sleep not in Christ, but in the grave (earth John 5: 28). They are judged according to their works. They that have done good to live and they that have done evil to the second death, to damnation. I believe that the second resurrection of all the rest of the dead is a resurrection of the just and the unjust. They that are written in the book of life are saved and the others are damned. Why should in the Millenium not just people live? Christian doctrine condemns them all, I think that is wrong. The resurrection of Lazarus is different. Jesus and the first fruits are the first that went to Heaven. Lazarus and even Jesus was at His death in the earth, they were not in Heaven. The last day Jesus speaks of must be the last day of an age (aeon), otherwise it does not go with 3 resurrections. there would be only one resurrection.
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Old 03-02-2014, 06:52 PM
 
1,534 posts, read 1,643,879 times
Reputation: 267
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zur View Post
There are 3 resurrections of the just, Paul gives us in 1. Cor 15 a picture of an harvest. After His resurrection the first fruits, which were the just of the OT saints. Than at His second coming the main harvest, they that died in Christ (1 Th 4:14). They were with Christ in Heaven. Their spiritual body (soul and spirit went at death to Heaven to be with the LORD as Paul said, the dead body goes to the grave. The body is resurrected and changed (First resurrection and Rapture). Than 1000 years later the rest (all), that sleep not in Christ, but in the grave (earth John 5: 28). They are judged according to their works. They that have done good to live and they that have done evil to the second death, to damnation. I believe that the second resurrection of all the rest of the dead is a resurrection of the just and the unjust. They that are written in the book of life are saved and the others are damned. Why should in the Millenium not just people live? Christian doctrine condemns them all, I think that is wrong. The resurrection of Lazarus is different. Jesus and the first fruits are the first that went to Heaven. Lazarus and even Jesus was at His death in the earth, they were not in Heaven. The last day Jesus speaks of must be the last day of an age (aeon), otherwise it does not go with 3 resurrections. there would be only one resurrection.

Quote:
There are 3 resurrections of the just, Paul gives us in 1. Cor 15 a picture of an harvest. After His resurrection the first fruits, which were the just of the OT saints.
Okay, I'm guessing [correct me if I'm wrong] by the words 'just of the OT saints' you are referring to this:

Mt 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose.53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

Not sure if you are saying they went to heaven, but if you are...where does it say that?

Then I have a question for you. If these ppl were raised to eternal life wouldn't they still be walking around? Same with Lazarus so that tells me they weren't raised to immortality, but back to a mortal life to die once again.


Quote:
Than at His second coming the main harvest, they that died in Christ (1 Th 4:14). They were with Christ in Heaven.
Another question. IF these were with Christ in Heaven why do they have to be raised to life again or twice?
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Old 03-02-2014, 07:03 PM
 
5,140 posts, read 2,532,429 times
Reputation: 383
[quote=RevelationWriter;33261637]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
"And He will send His Angels with the great sound of a trumpet and
they will GATHER Together His elect from the 4 winds." - Matt.24:31
~ No all the saints will not be removed from the earth before the great tribulation can begin?
Because The Great Multitude will come out of the great tribulation. - Rev.7:14
For sure the living-on-earth ' sheep ' of Matthew [ 25 vs 31,32 ] come out of the great tribulation.- Rev. 7 v 14
But, as for Jesus' spiritual ' brothers' [ saints or holy ones] of Matthew [ 25 v 40 ] it does Not say that.
Jesus ' brothers' [ 1st Cor 15 v 50 ] are Not the great multitude.
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Old 03-02-2014, 07:18 PM
 
5,140 posts, read 2,532,429 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mshipmate View Post
Okay, I'm guessing [correct me if I'm wrong] by the words 'just of the OT saints' you are referring to this:
Mt 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose.53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
Not sure if you are saying they went to heaven, but if you are...where does it say that?
Then I have a question for you. If these ppl were raised to eternal life wouldn't they still be walking around? Same with Lazarus so that tells me they weren't raised to immortality, but back to a mortal life to die once again.
Another question. IF these were with Christ in Heaven why do they have to be raised to life again or twice?
First, the holy ones or saints of Matthew 27 v 52 were raised up Not as in resurrected but as their bodies were exposed because of the quake. Exposed as to mean lifted up or arose out of the ground. Their lifeless bodies were tossed around out in the open. Remember Jesus is firstborn from the dead. No one resurrected to heaven before Jesus- Col. 1 v 18; John 3 v 13 Jesus was Not resurrected the day he died.- Acts 2 vs 27,31
So, it would be the living people at the grave site who would be the ones who went into the holy city appearing before many.

Those saints or spiritual ' brothers' of Christ [ Daniel 7 v 18 ] have a first or earlier resurrection to heaven [ Rev. 20 v 6.] before the majority of mankind is resurrected back to healthy physical life on earth during Jesus' 1000-year kingdom reign over earth, or over earthly subjects of God's kingdom.- Psalm 72 v 8
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Old 03-03-2014, 11:01 AM
Zur
 
949 posts, read 649,226 times
Reputation: 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by mshipmate View Post
Okay, I'm guessing [correct me if I'm wrong] by the words 'just of the OT saints' you are referring to this:

Mt 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose.53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

Not sure if you are saying they went to heaven, but if you are...where does it say that?

Then I have a question for you. If these ppl were raised to eternal life wouldn't they still be walking around? Same with Lazarus so that tells me they weren't raised to immortality, but back to a mortal life to die once again.




Another question. IF these were with Christ in Heaven why do they have to be raised to life again or twice?
Yes, I am referring to Mt 27:52. They came out of the grave means they were resurrected. Because Paul mentions them in the resurrection of the just as the First Fruits, the Ot Saints got the same body as in the First Resurrection, they are of the same fruit. How do I know they are in Heaven? I know it from witnesses, they spoke with them in Heaven. The resurrection of Lazarus is different, before Christ nobody got an immortal body. He came out in his death clothes, the ones that get a new body get also new clothes, all is new!
The OT Saints are with Christ now as the resurrected in the First Resurrection will be with Christ forever, there is another resurrection at the end of the Millennium, Paul says every one will be raised in his order, not twice. If we are in Christ , He is the resurrection and the life, even if we die, we will live. There is no death in Christ. The resurrection is of the body, the body dies that is right, but will be raised immortal with a glorious body .Once in every ones order. Praise be to the LORD.

Last edited by Zur; 03-03-2014 at 11:36 AM.. Reason: Wrong performance
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Old 03-03-2014, 11:14 AM
Zur
 
949 posts, read 649,226 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthew 4:4 View Post
First, the holy ones or saints of Matthew 27 v 52 were raised up Not as in resurrected but as their bodies were exposed because of the quake. Exposed as to mean lifted up or arose out of the ground. Their lifeless bodies were tossed around out in the open. Remember Jesus is firstborn from the dead. No one resurrected to heaven before Jesus- Col. 1 v 18; John 3 v 13 Jesus was Not resurrected the day he died.- Acts 2 vs 27,31
So, it would be the living people at the grave site who would be the ones who went into the holy city appearing before many.

Those saints or spiritual ' brothers' of Christ [ Daniel 7 v 18 ] have a first or earlier resurrection to heaven [ Rev. 20 v 6.] before the majority of mankind is resurrected back to healthy physical life on earth during Jesus' 1000-year kingdom reign over earth, or over earthly subjects of God's kingdom.- Psalm 72 v 8
Matthew, your interpretation is strange as usual. I do not believe you read the scripture Mat 27: 53, how can dead bodies walk and appear to many? The saints were raised after Jesus was raised and are first fruits.
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Old 03-03-2014, 11:28 AM
 
5,140 posts, read 2,532,429 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zur View Post
They are with Christ now as the resurrected in the First Resurrection will be with Christ forever, there is another resurrection at the end of the Millennium, Paul says every one will be raised in his order, not twice. If we are in Christ , He is the resurrection and the life, even if we die, we will live. There is no death in Christ. The resurrection is of the body, he dies that is right, but will be raised immortal with a glorious body .Once in every ones order. Praise be to the LORD.
Why do you say at the end of the millennium ?________

Satan is released at the end - Rev. 20 v 7 - but by that time all of the dead, who are not called to heaven, will be resurrected on earth out of the grave [ Bible's temporary hell ] according to Rev. 20 vs 13,14, then emptied-out hell and death are cast into that symbolic ' second death' for vacated hell [ grave ].
Satan is loosed of of his prison to try to deceive those who are already resurrected on earth during [ Not at the end ] but during Jesus millennial-long day of reigning over earth.
Those who died last will be resurrected first on earth, meaning the last ones who died before the ' time of separation ' of Matthew 25 vs 31,32 will be resurrected first on earth to be on hand to welcome back those who died before them. Going all the way back to one of Noah's three sons to Noah to Adam. [ the only exception will be those who are called to be ' princes' in the earth - Psalm 45 v 16 - such as the faithful ones of old listed in Hebrews chapter 11 those believers will be back on earth sooner ]. Also, all who lived before Jesus died will have a healthy physical resurrection back to life on earth.
- John 3 v 13; Acts 24 v 15
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