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Old 04-13-2014, 09:24 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert M Prince View Post
Very interesting post. Those who believe in a secret rapture of the church to heaven, later to be followed by Christ coming back to earth the 2nd time before the Millinnenium ignore the words of Paul in Thes. 4:[16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:[17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. This describes perfectly the ONLY 2nd coming of Christ at the beginning of the Millinnium with Satan being bound for Christ's 1000 year rule on the earth, after which Satan will be loosed for a short while, before his being banished to hell forever. Jesus will then lay down all His rule and authority and the righteous will be taken up to the 3rd heaven as co-heirs with Christ, where God will be seen as all in all.
Hi Robert,
I think this is interesting: When Christ comes back for the believers of the nations comprising what Paul calls "the body of Christ," He does not set foot on the ground. We meet Him in the air.

Then there is a 7 year period: 3 1/2 years the man of lawlessness succors the Jews and then for 3 1/2 year he promotes the great tribulation of the Jews, i.e. Jewish believers.

Then, according to Romans 11 and Revelation, Christ returns and sets foot on Mt. Zion to battle the 10 kings and the Adversary. Then the Millennial reign of Christ begins on the earth. But the Jews of that resurrection remain on the earth and enter the kingdom on the earth while we remain in the heavens.
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Old 04-13-2014, 02:40 PM
 
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Where is the air? Does it mean the sky?

where in the Gospels did Christ teach about rapture?
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Old 04-13-2014, 02:46 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marlbron View Post
Where is the air? Does it mean the sky?
Yes.

Quote:
where in the Gospels did Christ teach about rapture?
He didn't.
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Old 04-14-2014, 04:34 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
Yes.



He didn't.
It means then that we will be with him forever in the sky? Why did he create you on earth? Why did Christ talk about the coming of his kingdom on earth, and not meeting him in the sky? Seems inconsistent with the core teaching of Jesus. For such an important doctrine, could Christ have been so careless not to teach it or even hint at it?


Then the word "caught up". Paul used that word when he went to the 3rd heaven. The word has only one meaning- at least to Paul, the writer: "in one spiritual accord" or "moved spiritually". it is not a physical movement by any stretch.

Air means the earth. Spirit of the air means the spirits in the earth or earthly spirits. We would be forever with the Lord on the earth.
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Old 04-14-2014, 01:55 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marlbron View Post
It means then that we will be with him forever in the sky? Why did he create you on earth? Why did Christ talk about the coming of his kingdom on earth, and not meeting him in the sky? Seems inconsistent with the core teaching of Jesus. For such an important doctrine, could Christ have been so careless not to teach it or even hint at it?
No, we won't be with Him forever in the sky.
We will be "transported into the kingdom of the Son of His love."

We will be changed in the twinkling of an eye from earth bound humans to celestial bodies to equip us to live among the celestials:

1Co_15:48 Such as the soilish one is, such are those also who are soilish, and such as the Celestial One, such are those also who are celestials."

Eph_1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, Who blesses us with every spiritual blessing among the celestials, in Christ,

Eph_1:20 which is operative in the Christ, rousing Him from among the dead and seating Him at His right hand among the celestials,

Eph_2:6 and rouses us together and seats us together among the celestials, in Christ Jesus,

Eph_3:10 that now may be made known to the sovereignties and the authorities among the celestials, through the ecclesia, the multifarious wisdom of God,

Eph_6:12 for it is not ours to wrestle with blood and flesh, but with the sovereignties, with the authorities, with the world-mights of this darkness, with the spiritual forces of wickedness among the celestials."

We will have part in this administration to head up all in the heavens . . . the vast starry reaches of space as we are told in Ephesians 1:9,10 while at the same time the Jews remain on the earth.


Quote:
Then the word "caught up". Paul used that word when he went to the 3rd heaven. The word has only one meaning- at least to Paul, the writer: "in one spiritual accord" or "moved spiritually". it is not a physical movement by any stretch.
No quite there yet friend in your understanding but you are getting close. Both Paul and John were caught up in spirit to see future things. But one should not interpret eveything by one verse. You see, God won't open up the graves of believers and have them all come out of their graves only for them to experience a spiritual catching away. Our bodies will be changed to equip us for the celestial regions.

Quote:
Air means the earth. Spirit of the air means the spirits in the earth or earthly spirits. We would be forever with the Lord on the earth.
No, "air" means that which surrounds the earth. It is "up" not "on." "Clouds" tells us it is above the earth, not on the earth. First we are caught up in the air and then we are transported to celestial regions.
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Old 04-15-2014, 06:05 AM
 
Location: North Carolina
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I still believe there is only ONE second coming of Christ when all those who have died in Christ will be resurrected first in Spiritual bodies, then we which are alive at His return will in the twinkling of the eye drop our physical bodies and rise to meet Him in the air, at which time Satan is banished from the earth and the reign of Christ wiil commence ON the earth which will be restored to its Edenic purity for the 1000 year Millenium to begin.
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Old 04-15-2014, 08:30 AM
 
Location: Florida
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Led Zeppelin View Post
You mean, you don't see the WORD "rapture" in the Bible, I think.... I need to know specifically what scripture you are refering to with that parable of the husbandman. I believe you are referencing Matthew 18 or 24 or 25

Scripture references? Start with those doctrines of the resurrection of the righteous dead and of the transformation of those left alive until the second coming. Consider Jesus ascension into heaven. Consider 1 Corinthians 15. The parousia is a central doctrine of both the Western and Eastern orthodoxy, the Catholic Church, evangelicals, etc. Ancient doctrines discussed by 1st century fathers. Mark 12:27 - "He is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

I'm not a pre-tribber, a dispensationalist or a fan of the Left Behind mythology. So, you won't see any arguments from me that you would get from a dispensationalist pre-tribber or a novice theologian. As I said before, the rapture has nothing to do with flying to the air, or to heaven, or the location of our eternal state of being. This is the fundamental aspect of the argument that eludes consideration from many pundits. The purpose of the rapture is to transform living believers into their eternal glorified state at the time of the second coming. When the righteous dead are raised "incorruptible". Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of heaven. And this is both a spiritual truth and a literal truth. Thus, the living believer will put on that which is incorruptible.

You ask me if I believe that we will rule on Earth. I ask you, do you believe that dead believers will be resurrected into the same old mortal bodies? Will those believers who are alive at the second coming just stay imperfect as they presently are? This is what the rapture is about. It's not about flying away into the sky.

I've read the NT over 300 times in 25 years. I have no problem at all seeing a doctrine of the transformation of the believers and the righteous dead. The resurrection is a central tenet of the Christian faith.
I have always felt that those who preach and teach the "rapture" have it confused with the promised resurrection. Those who have passed on will be changed (glorified) at the same moment as those who are alive in mortal bodies.
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Old 04-15-2014, 08:48 AM
 
Location: Florida
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trumpethim View Post
I also believe that there is but one Second Coming, and Jesus spoke of it in Matthew 24:29, Mark 13:24, 25, and Luke 21:25, 26. Note how Jesus says "AFTER the tribulation of those days". And also note that He is describing an event that is VERY physical upon the earth. There will be no doubt that it is occurring when it finally comes.

And as far as a rapture is concerned, note that it isn't everyone, it is His elect. God calls many, but few are chosen as His elect. Elect means that He CHOSE them. He ELECTS them. As in the story of Gideon, only 300 were chosen. As in the story of the wise and foolish virgins, only 5 were ready. It doesn't mean that the others were condemned. They JUST WERE NOT CHOSEN FOR THIS EVENT.

Many think that the rapture, (more correctly the First Resurrection), is an event where the Church escapes the wrath of God. That is a totally misdirected statement. The Second Coming is the advent of The Kingdom on earth. It says "AFTER THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE DAYS". The intent of God is not to have the Church escape the tribulation of those days, because this event is AFTER that.

God's intent is to give Jesus His bride and to begin her rulership with Jesus, and they are the ones that are totally devoted to Him. They are pure and clean because their life IS Him. They are the good bride that is totally in union with her husband. They totally follow His leading, and have no self-will. Because of this, they qualify to be the 'elect'. The "Bride of Christ" is not the whole Church as we know it. The elect are chosen to rule and reign with Him. God doesn't need everyone for this. Everyone cannot be an officer, or there will be no enlisted! The ones that God chooses are His business, and they are the ones that 'follow the lamb wheresoever He goes". Not everyone can qualify for this. These people are going to be 'sealed' by God, which means that there is total trust in them by God. But in order for God to fully entrust the Kingdom to these people, they need to be resurrected, because a mortal cannot inherit the Kingdom, nor can they be trusted. So in essence, the 'sealing' IS the transformation that takes place in resurrection.

Jesus gave the criteria to be qualified in Matthew 16:24-27; Luke 9:23-26; Matthew 10:37, 38; Mark 8:34-38; Luke 14:25-30; John 12:24-26.

Here are the verses that Jesus spoke of the Second Coming in His Olivet Discourse:

Matthew 24:29-31
Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.



Mark 13:24-27
But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,

And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

Luke 21:25-28And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh. (Notice that they (everyone) shall see, as opposed to lift up your heads, who are the elect.)
Interesting points and it sounds more in line with the way I see the scriptures. However, I do wonder if those who rule with Jesus in glorified bodies will be ruling over a new earth? If so, will there still be the potential for sin and death, as you see it? It would seem so if those who they are ruling are still dwelling in mortal bodies. This scenario is a little hard for me to imagine - but I can't say I really know for sure.
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Old 04-15-2014, 09:51 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert M Prince View Post
I still believe there is only ONE second coming of Christ when all those who have died in Christ will be resurrected first in Spiritual bodies, then we which are alive at His return will in the twinkling of the eye drop our physical bodies and rise to meet Him in the air, at which time Satan is banished from the earth and the reign of Christ wiil commence ON the earth which will be restored to its Edenic purity for the 1000 year Millenium to begin.
Hi Robert. Interesting post you gave above.

I've been thinking about this every thing about "spiritual bodies." Does the phrase "spiritual bodies" mean we will be "spirit beings without bodies"? I don't think so.

Look at it this way: Right now we have a soulish body. The bible says so. Does this mean we don't have a body but are only comprised of a soul? No. It means our body is basically controlled by soulish sensations.

Likewise, a spiritual body means our body in the future will be controlled by the Spirit.

When Christ comes for the believers of the nations He is going to resurrect the dead believers out of their graves in bodily form. They will receive God's spirit and will be controlled by spirit. It doesn't mean they will come out of their graved bodily and then drop their bodies to become spirit beings. Why would God go to all that trouble to resurrect their bodies if they will just drop them for something else?
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Old 04-15-2014, 04:16 PM
 
Location: central Florida
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The rapture theory is an American invention supported by argument, popular opinion, and contextually misapplied references to scripture. It is based upon nothing else and certainly not the general theme of Biblical prophecy.

It has its roots in ages old interpretations of the millennium. It grew in the first modern development in the writings of an American who attempted to create a diagram of history that agrees with Biblical text and prediction. Finally it flowered in the popular culture of American mass media and publishing.

The study of origins of rapture theory begins with millennialism of which there are three general types; pre-millenialism, post-millenialism and a-millenialism. Each type is based upon separate interpretations as to when the Kingdom of God would arrive. In pre-millenialism, the church was thought to conquer the world with the gospel. In this theory, the second coming of Christ would occur prior to a thousand year golden age. It is closely pegged to a concept of utopianism which in turn was seized upon by every western despot and tyrant in the last five hundred years. The world, they said, was to be made pure (usually in their political image) for the return of Christ.

The post-millenialist theory holds that Christ returns to earth after a thousand years of peace and prosperity. Finally, the a-millenialist ideology teaches that the thousand year reign of Christ is purely figurative - not real and not to be expected at all.

In the 1850's John Nelson Darby jumped into the mix by publishing his linear description of the grace of God in history. Called dispensationalism, Darby also included the developed idea of what it would be like when Christ returns the second time. He formulated several concepts including the condition of human culture, signs from the heavens and the advent of Christ in terms of a mixture of pre-millenialist and post-millenialist theory.

Darby wrote that Christ would arrive not at the beginning or even at the end of the millennium, but at some point in the span of another series of years called the tribulation, which in turn was to precede the millennium. Darby published his work and discussed its implications with three witches or spiritualists in England as the idea was gaining popularity. To this day, the influence of the three witches upon Darby's ideology remains controversial.

In the twentieth century, the rapture theory became popularized in America by the boom in pulp fiction and mass literary marketing as well as radio broadcasting. Rapturism gradually assumed several different theories of its own all usually pegged to the advent of Christ before after or in the middle of the tribulation.

Throughout the entire evolution of the rapture theory, it's proponents utilized scripture quotations and long winded rants to legitimize their interpretation. Through it all, however, the rapture theory remained an obsession among American Christians. It had no reception among other nations in the world and has gradually fallen into disrepute.

At a congress of South African Christian leaders some five or six years ago, a vote was taken to abandon the American rapture ideology. The vote passed generally because the rapture myth was construed to be too divisive and not edifying to the church or to the normal Christian life. There is absolutely no legitimate application of it either in prophecy, the methodical application of Christian principles in life or in the hope of the resurrection. It does, however, sell a lot of fictitious books, magazine articles and even a few movie tickets.

In short, the modern development of the theory has Christ returning to earth not a second time, but a third and even a forth depending upon which interpretation is most popular with any particular group.

The truth that this anomaly of religion is more profit than prophet has escaped far too many. As proof I submit to the reader that acceptance or rejection of this argument will have no impact whatsoever upon the faith of the true believer. It is much ado about nothing. The necessity and the blessing of the second birth far exceeds any part of rapturism, yet rapturists claim to know far more details of their theory than understanding of the nature of the second birth itself.

That, I think, is more telling than a bushel basket full of scripture quotations.

and that's just me, hollering from the choir loft...
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