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Old 10-04-2013, 07:11 AM
 
Location: california
5,666 posts, read 4,889,400 times
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It seems to me, that if one is attempting to hold God to a written contract, then it is not a love relationship.
Where as one whom is willing/anxious to serve God where ever he happens to be, in an obedient love relationship ,the place makes no difference, does it ?
Review the Lord's prayer .
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Old 10-04-2013, 10:18 AM
 
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I am not going to get into a drawn out discussion about this, and in fact, this will be my only post on this thread. But I just want to say that while people may hold to different views on when the rapture occurs, to say that there is no rapture at all and that it is not found in the Bible is simply without excuse. But human nature being what it is, there are those who will continue to deny it anyway.

The word 'Rapture' is taken from the Latin word 'Rapturo' which is a translation of the Greek word '“Harpazo” which is usually translated as 'caught up' in 1 Thessalonians 4:17. That is the rapture. The 'catching up' of the church which is mentioned in 1 Thessalonians 4:17.

Harpazo; ἁρπάζω

Thayer's Definition
1. to seize, carry off by force
2. to seize on, claim for one's self eagerly
3. to snatch out or away
Strong's #726 - ἁρπάζω - Old & New Testament Greek - Lexicons - StudyLight.org
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Old 10-04-2013, 02:01 PM
 
910 posts, read 1,085,295 times
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Mike

I admire your industry and eagerness wrt biblical things, but am sure you realize that in the grand scheme of things Christ's coming was to unite us to God and to announce the coming of the kingdom of God. The foundation of that in kingdom was laid by the death on the cross. Christ never preached that you will rapture. And do not mention "taken" , as I have shown that those that were taken are destroyed by angels.

Love your neighbour and fear God, but keep your foot on the ground as there is no Rapture.
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Old 10-04-2013, 02:09 PM
 
11,270 posts, read 11,286,561 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marlbron View Post
Love your neighbour and fear God, but keep your foot on the ground as there is no Rapture.
If there's no rapture we'll all have no choice BUT to keep our feet on the ground, eh Marlbron?
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Old 10-04-2013, 02:22 PM
 
Location: Dallas TX
304 posts, read 247,567 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian658 View Post
The rapture is an invention of some Christian groups in the US in the 19th-20th century. I don't believe it is truly biblical or part of the Sacred Tradition.
Yup. It was born around that time. I don't guess that disqualifies it, but it should make it fair to question.

Also, a little before that, the evangelical understanding of "BORN AGAIN" was born. Church History would freak the heck out if they heard that teaching. hehe
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Old 10-04-2013, 02:44 PM
 
2,075 posts, read 1,466,449 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marlbron View Post
Completely agree with you Julian. Does that not remind you of this verse in 2 Pet
I wonder how much the left behind series made in the box office? Think of all the works of charity such funds would have been used for.

The doctrine popularly called "the rapture" in the West was not invented in the 19th century. The doctrine of PRE-TRIBULATIONIST rapture was invented in the 19th century. The timing of this event has been in dispute for the past 120 or so years, thanks to Darbyism, but the belief in the catching up described in the NT is an old belief going back to the first century church in various forms.

The NT clearly describe the event and the purpose of the rapture. The rapture has nothing to do with the sort of event described in the pretribulationist worldview. You are confusing the Bible with the Left Behind mythology and thus you throw out the baby with the bath water. There is a translation of the believer, and an ascension. Corruptible flesh cannot inherit the kingdom of heaven.

This has nothing to do with flying up to heaven like a little birdy to escape suffering.

Really, your confusion centers around the one issue that confuses so many within and without the church. What is the PURPOSE of the rapture? Figure this out, and figure out the historical discussion centering around the event called "the rapture" and then you can rationally discuss the issue.

But you can't mix different bad arguments into one big confused stew of arguments and expect to really shed light on the issue.

Last edited by Led Zeppelin; 10-04-2013 at 03:06 PM..
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Old 10-04-2013, 03:09 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xian Catalyst View Post
Also, a little before that, the evangelical understanding of "BORN AGAIN" was born. Church History would freak the heck out if they heard that teaching. hehe
Jesus was first to use the term "born again". I'm assuming your referring to some questionable interpretation of that phrase by some individual or group of individuals. Beyond that, being born again is the central tenet of the Christian faith. Ultimately it refers to the second resurrection and eternal life. To deny that teaching is to deny the faith.
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Old 10-04-2013, 03:43 PM
 
910 posts, read 1,085,295 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Led Zeppelin View Post
The doctrine popularly called "the rapture" in the West was not invented in the 19th century. The doctrine of PRE-TRIBULATIONIST rapture was invented in the 19th century. The timing of this event has been in dispute for the past 120 or so years, thanks to Darbyism, but the belief in the catching up described in the NT is an old belief going back to the first century church in various forms.

The NT clearly describe the event and the purpose of the rapture. The rapture has nothing to do with the sort of event described in the pretribulationist worldview. You are confusing the Bible with the Left Behind mythology and thus you throw out the baby with the bath water. There is a translation of the believer, and an ascension. Corruptible flesh cannot inherit the kingdom of heaven.

This has nothing to do with flying up to heaven like a little birdy to escape suffering.

Really, your confusion centers around the one issue that confuses so many within and without the church. What is the PURPOSE of the rapture? Figure this out, and figure out the historical discussion centering around the event called "the rapture" and then you can rationally discuss the issue.

But you can't mix different bad arguments into one big confused stew of arguments and expect to really shed light on the issue.
Welcome on board Zepplin.

Would you care to walk me through scripture including Jesus preachings to satisfy me that there is indeed a rapture. I have read the NT and I do not see any near reference to it. While you are at it, can I ask you to read up the parable of the wicked husbandmen and tell me how the rapture will happen taking cognizance of that parable.

You will contribute to this discussion if you take your bearing from scripture. You might want to start from the well known 1 Thes 4; and go through other rapture verses. A word of caution though: the air is not heaven... and even if it were heaven, are we meant to be with Christ forever in heaven? We are never coming to rule on earth? The kingdom of God will never be established on earth?

lastly, do you pray the Lord's prayer? If you do, I want you to this time reflect on its meaning. Pray it out softly and slowly and reflect on the message Christ was passing to all of us.
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Old 10-04-2013, 07:47 PM
 
2,075 posts, read 1,466,449 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marlbron View Post
Welcome on board Zepplin.

Would you care to walk me through scripture including Jesus preachings to satisfy me that there is indeed a rapture. I have read the NT and I do not see any near reference to it. While you are at it, can I ask you to read up the parable of the wicked husbandmen and tell me how the rapture will happen taking cognizance of that parable.

You will contribute to this discussion if you take your bearing from scripture. You might want to start from the well known 1 Thes 4; and go through other rapture verses. A word of caution though: the air is not heaven... and even if it were heaven, are we meant to be with Christ forever in heaven? We are never coming to rule on earth? The kingdom of God will never be established on earth?

You mean, you don't see the WORD "rapture" in the Bible, I think.... I need to know specifically what scripture you are refering to with that parable of the husbandman. I believe you are referencing Matthew 18 or 24 or 25

Scripture references? Start with those doctrines of the resurrection of the righteous dead and of the transformation of those left alive until the second coming. Consider Jesus ascension into heaven. Consider 1 Corinthians 15. The parousia is a central doctrine of both the Western and Eastern orthodoxy, the Catholic Church, evangelicals, etc. Ancient doctrines discussed by 1st century fathers. Mark 12:27 - "He is not the God of the dead, but of the living.”

I'm not a pre-tribber, a dispensationalist or a fan of the Left Behind mythology. So, you won't see any arguments from me that you would get from a dispensationalist pre-tribber or a novice theologian. As I said before, the rapture has nothing to do with flying to the air, or to heaven, or the location of our eternal state of being. This is the fundamental aspect of the argument that eludes consideration from many pundits. The purpose of the rapture is to transform living believers into their eternal glorified state at the time of the second coming. When the righteous dead are raised "incorruptible". Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of heaven. And this is both a spiritual truth and a literal truth. Thus, the living believer will put on that which is incorruptible.

You ask me if I believe that we will rule on Earth. I ask you, do you believe that dead believers will be resurrected into the same old mortal bodies? Will those believers who are alive at the second coming just stay imperfect as they presently are? This is what the rapture is about. It's not about flying away into the sky.

I've read the NT over 300 times in 25 years. I have no problem at all seeing a doctrine of the transformation of the believers and the righteous dead. The resurrection is a central tenet of the Christian faith.

Last edited by Led Zeppelin; 10-04-2013 at 08:35 PM..
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Old 10-05-2013, 04:12 AM
 
8,109 posts, read 7,081,565 times
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The tribulation is from Daniel 12:9-12.....``for the words are closed up and sealed till the end of time ..Many will be purified, and made white, and tried, but the wicked will do wickedly, and none of the wicked will understand , but the wise will understand ...and from the time of the daily sacrifice will be taken away and the abomination that makes desolate set up , there will be a thousand, two hundred and ninety days ..... Blessed is he that waits and comes to the thousand three hundred and thirty five days ``.....................Which is the time of the rapture , does not say where people will have to wait , which can come from the lead in the spirit where faith is expressed for people who are purified through Christ , and listen in faith to God , then when the daily sacrifice which is the sacrifice of the cross of Jesus Christ is banded and outlawed , they will have to wait a thousand three hundred and thirty day to come when the coast is then clear ................... Says it will take Jesus thousand two hundred and ninety day to remove the authority of the antichrist , but says to remain hidden for 45 more days for complete closure from God and His lead in the spirit ........................... Then the thousand year reign will come and it has not come to date, and if you have understand the dispensation of the authority where the devil will be locked up for thousand years , which means NO MORE WARS, NO UNBELIEF IN THE TRUTH OF CHRIST, NO JAILS, NO SIN , NO SELFISHNESS, NO FAITHLESSNESS IN GOD, NO HOSPITALS , NO POLICE NEEDED, NO LACK OF FOOD, NO CLIMATE CHANGE , NO HATE , NO INDIFFERENCES , and so on which spiritual discernment will know
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