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Old 10-16-2013, 03:01 PM
 
Location: Denver, CO
9,327 posts, read 5,515,746 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bartstarr1960 View Post
I've read through all the posts on this thread and some posters do not appear to fall into one of the four eschatological millennial views.
  1. Amillennialism
  2. Postmillennialism
  3. Historic Premillennialism
  4. Dispensational Premillennialism
I'm not going to bore everyone by expounding on each view, there are thousands, if not millions of websites that do that better than I could.
I would like to add one more view---

God's gonna do what God's gonna do.

Can't find anywhere in the scripture or early church history where we are commanded to figure out what God's intentions are for the end of time, although I'm pretty sure some early Christians had some sort of view.

But since none of it means a thing in terms of walking in Jesus' footsteps, then what a waste of thought and time for Christians to dwell on it.
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Old 10-17-2013, 12:38 AM
 
910 posts, read 1,086,111 times
Reputation: 119
Wardendresden,
I think the scripture has a view on end times. Jesus talked about the coming Kingdom, the prophets, the apostles and Paul all had views on it. The problem is not in the works but in our interpretation of their works. For instance Jesus sanctiöned reincarnation but most Christians do not believe in it. Jesus said he will be in the earth's belly for 3days and 3nights, most christians claim he died on friday and resurrected on sunday: which is 2days, a direct contradiction to what Christ said. When he was lifted up a cloud received him from their sight but they kept looking up. 2 angels appeared and questioned why they were looking up? That Christ will come back in the same manner he went up. What manner did he go up? As a human being. How is a human born? Through the womb of a woman. The bible went on to reveal in his 2nd advent that he will be born of a woman (Rev 19:5), yet mainstream Christianity would want us to believe that he would suspend in the cloud and folks will rapture to meet him in the air and be with him in the air forever!

My question is "where is the air?" The air is in the world, therefore we will be with him in the world. But the understanding is still skewed, just like the jews are still awaiting his first coming from the sky, our fellow christians are also caught up in that folly.
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Old 10-17-2013, 06:22 AM
 
6,438 posts, read 9,975,701 times
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The Rapture is biblical and is a literal event that WILL happen. Just not anytime soon. We have many years upon this Earth before then. God is coming for a spotless church. We are nowhere near that. But that doesn't mean you need to fear your time on this Earth. This is the going to be the greatest time to be alive.
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Old 10-17-2013, 06:25 AM
Zur
 
949 posts, read 650,359 times
Reputation: 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marlbron View Post
Wardendresden,
I think the scripture has a view on end times. Jesus talked about the coming Kingdom, the prophets, the apostles and Paul all had views on it. The problem is not in the works but in our interpretation of their works. For instance Jesus sanctiöned reincarnation but most Christians do not believe in it. Jesus said he will be in the earth's belly for 3days and 3nights, most christians claim he died on friday and resurrected on sunday: which is 2days, a direct contradiction to what Christ said. When he was lifted up a cloud received him from their sight but they kept looking up. 2 angels appeared and questioned why they were looking up? That Christ will come back in the same manner he went up. What manner did he go up? As a human being. How is a human born? Through the womb of a woman. The bible went on to reveal in his 2nd advent that he will be born of a woman (Rev 19:5), yet mainstream Christianity would want us to believe that he would suspend in the cloud and folks will rapture to meet him in the air and be with him in the air forever!

My question is "where is the air?" The air is in the world, therefore we will be with him in the world. But the understanding is still skewed, just like the jews are still awaiting his first coming from the sky, our fellow christians are also caught up in that folly.
How do you interpret scripture? When the angel said, that He comes back as He went, then that means, He will not come back through the womb of a woman! Rev 19:5 does not say that. You are way off scripture.
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Old 10-17-2013, 07:37 AM
 
910 posts, read 1,086,111 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zur View Post
How do you interpret scripture? When the angel said, that He comes back as He went, then that means, He will not come back through the womb of a woman! Rev 19:5 does not say that. You are way off scripture.
Zur,
I goofed, its Rev 12:5! This proves conclusively that Christ must be born of a woman as it happened the first time. In all things he must be like us, not like angels who were not given to rule over man.

That is why Rev 3:12 confirms that he comes with a new name. If he is not born, how can you know his new name and his birth place- New Jerusalem?

The angels who noticed that his disciples were looking up, querried them. "Why do you stand gazing ", means it was not necessary doing that. He went up as a human, he will come back as a human. Jesus is the same, yesterday, today and evermore! AMEN! Thank you Father!
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Old 10-18-2013, 08:20 AM
Zur
 
949 posts, read 650,359 times
Reputation: 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marlbron View Post
Zur,
I goofed, its Rev 12:5! This proves conclusively that Christ must be born of a woman as it happened the first time. In all things he must be like us, not like angels who were not given to rule over man.

That is why Rev 3:12 confirms that he comes with a new name. If he is not born, how can you know his new name and his birth place- New Jerusalem?

The angels who noticed that his disciples were looking up, querried them. "Why do you stand gazing ", means it was not necessary doing that. He went up as a human, he will come back as a human. Jesus is the same, yesterday, today and evermore! AMEN! Thank you Father!
Rev 12:5 does not say, that Jesus comes back to earth incarnated through a woman. This man child is not born after the Tribulation, when Jesus comes back, but before the Antichrist reigns, so it cannot be the second coming of Christ. Jesus told us in Mat 24:29+30; Rev 1:7 how He comes back, after the Tribulation. Read it, that you may know. Your faith is not christian faith. There is no reincarnation. The bible says we have one life and than comes judgement. This life is a dressing room for eternity, it distinguishes our eternity, eternal life in the presence of God or eternal damnation separated from God (Dan 12:2). There is no second chance.
There are 3 literal resurrections, in the order and form Paul describes in 1. Cor 15. Jesus was resurrected in an immortal body 3 days and 3 nights after His crucifixion. He died once and for all for our sins and lives for ever (Rev1:18). If you think a resurrected immortal body will come back to earth through a woman in the same body we have now, it is nonsense, than we would die again.
But your faith may be related to the Antichrist, who may claim to come as reincarnation of Christ, born from a woman. But anyone that takes the mark of the beast is doomed to hell. Be careful what you believe. Eternity is not a game, you can play with. Every one that is not found in Jesus (His Holy Spirit guides us in all truth) will loose against the devil, it does not matter, if someone believes that he exist or not. IMO you are just ignorant and deceived.
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Old 10-19-2013, 01:17 PM
 
910 posts, read 1,086,111 times
Reputation: 119
Quote:
Rev 12:5 does not say, that Jesus comes back to earth incarnated through a woman. This man child is not born after the Tribulation, when Jesus comes back, but before the Antichrist reigns, so it cannot be the second coming of Christ
Compare your quote to what the Bible actually says

Rev 12:1-5
Quote:
The woman and the dragon
1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: 2 and she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. 4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
Q1: Was the Child not Christ in His 2nd incarnation?
Q2: Was Christ not meant to rule in his 2nd coming?
Q3: Was their any reference to rapture?

Again, you claim

Quote:
Your faith is not christian faith. There is no reincarnation. The bible says we have one life and than comes judgement. This life is a dressing room for eternity, it distinguishes our eternity, eternal life in the presence of God or eternal damnation separated from God (Dan 12:2). There is no second chance.
But Christ whom you say you believe had this to say about John's true identity

Mathew 11

Quote:
13 For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John. 14 And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come. 15 He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.
If you are still in doubt about Christ professing reincarnation, you can also read this:
Mathew 17

Quote:
10 And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come?
11 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things. 12 But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them. 13 Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.
The Jews who were expecting Elijah to descend from the sky like he ascended up, did not understand that he had come ( in the spirit of Elijah...) as John the Baptist. They knew him not. In a like manner, folks who say they are Christians will not know the "thief" already in our midst.They would be looking up in the sky for him to come and "rapture' them. No matter what they think, the plan of God is immutable. So much for reincarnation. But, before I leave that I want to dwell on your faulty interpretation of the Bibilical passage that " it is appointed unto man once to die and after judgment". Every human being dies once in each lifetime. After that there is a mandatory judgment, which might necessitate coming to live another lifetime to pay for that sin. In the case of Elijah, he committed murders in the name of God, but paid for it in another life as John the Baptist. That was why as righteous as he was, God did not lift a finger to save him, and because of that he was so worried that he sent his disciples to ascertain from Christ if he was the Messiah. Elijah had a second chance, who knows how many times you yourself have reincarnated into this world?

Quote:
If you think a resurrected immortal body will come back to earth through a woman in the same body we have now, it is nonsense, than we would die again.
I am not quite sure you read 1Cor 15 verfy well. if you did, you will observe, that once that body is sown, God gives the quickened body a new body as it suits Him. A resurrected body is a spiritual or angelic body, nothing more, nothing less. Do not get confused about this. It is a spiritual body. Every spirit is born through the womb of a woman for earthly dwelling.That is God's plan for now, and possibly after the final resurrection it will be that way, only that women will not need sex to have babies and would not feel pain to have babies. I am a spirit, you are a spirit, the only thing is that we are clothed with blood and water (flesh) for earthly dwelling. Nothing special , my dear friend about a resurrected body!

Paul in this submission admitted reincarnation

Quote:
5 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? 36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die: 37 and that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain: 38 but God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
You could live in Canada, when you die, your spirit resurrects and the next incarnation, you are born to a family in Sudan or Malaysia as it pleases God. That is why it is stated that "their works follow after them" ..in other words their deeds in their incarnations are rewarded in the next incarnation. As a child of God, it is expected of you to always do good at all times, so that your good works follow after you.

I am glad you mentioned the anti-Christ. An anti-Christ by my reckoning is one who opposes the teaching of Christ. If Christ said he will sleep for 3 days and 3 nights, and you observe it for 2 days and 2 nights, what are you? if he tells you that John the Baptist was Elijah and you say their is no reincarnation, who are you? If you claim the title Holy Father and sit in a temple, with people paying obeisance to you and you are a mere man, subject to angels, are you not an anti-Christ?

The anti-Christ had been in existence from the time of the apostles. The 666 refereed to in Revelation means the rule of man. Man being created on the 6th day of creation, has given his soul to the devil. His worship of God (religion) has for so long been controlled by worldly teachings, not spiritual teachings. The true teachings of Our Lord Jesus Christ were lost, and what you have is a shaky foundation - the rule of man. However, we are happy that he has come by himself to establish his kingdom at this end of time. All mankind and religions have never held on to the accurate knowledge of the truth and would be shocked when they know the truth about God and the returned Christ. Christ had given a hint about this when he said that all nations would mourn.

Quote:
Jesus told us in Mat 24:29+30; Rev 1:7 how He comes back, after the Tribulation.
Lets look them up; for clarity I have started from earlier verses and I would also stack up Luke in the mix.

Quote:
. 25 Behold, I have told you before. 26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. 27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 and then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory
Verse 28 is key to understanding all of this. The carcase (Christ returned) will already be somewhere with his eagles (the real children of God), while folks speculate about his coming. He already sneaks in (like a thief), gathers his elect to himself while the peripheral believers will be looking all over for him - desert, secret chambers, etc. Note in John 14, he said " he will come again and receive us unto himself "

Verse 30, says the sign of the son of man. Sign. That sign will cause all the earth to mourn. Question is why the mourning? Even "Christians" will mourn. Perhaps that sign is not only the cross, it has something else, something unexpected, something little known and unregarded, something even distasteful to their inaccurate beliefs. Christ had also testified in Luke 18:

Quote:
Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?
If he does not find faith on earth when he comes, is it any surprise that the world will mourn when they finally realize he is the one?

Coming in the clouds of heaven is not a literal descent from the sky, otherwise verse 28 will have been hopeless. Ver 28, as also Revelation Chap 4, 5, 6,7 & (Dan 7:9-13) confirm that he will already be set up in his kingdom with all these things happening. All shall be aware of the presence of the returned Christ and witness the power and glory of God. In his first advent, he told the Jews that he came down from heaven. No man saw him descending. Why should you hope to see literally descent in this case? Never mind that in your 'rapture believe' he is suspended in mid air. The carnal interpretation of spiritual events is a major failing of the world's religions. But no worries, The Kingdoms of this world have now become the kingdom of Jehovah God and His Christ and he will reign for ever and ever.. Amen.

Last edited by Marlbron; 10-19-2013 at 01:30 PM..
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Old 10-20-2013, 06:49 AM
Zur
 
949 posts, read 650,359 times
Reputation: 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marlbron View Post
Compare your quote to what the Bible actually says

Rev 12:1-5Q1: Was the Child not Christ in His 2nd incarnation?
Q2: Was Christ not meant to rule in his 2nd coming?
Q3: Was their any reference to rapture?

Again, you claim

But Christ whom you say you believe had this to say about John's true identity

Mathew 11

If you are still in doubt about Christ professing reincarnation, you can also read this:
Mathew 17

The Jews who were expecting Elijah to descend from the sky like he ascended up, did not understand that he had come ( in the spirit of Elijah...) as John the Baptist. They knew him not. In a like manner, folks who say they are Christians will not know the "thief" already in our midst.They would be looking up in the sky for him to come and "rapture' them. No matter what they think, the plan of God is immutable. So much for reincarnation. But, before I leave that I want to dwell on your faulty interpretation of the Bibilical passage that " it is appointed unto man once to die and after judgment". Every human being dies once in each lifetime. After that there is a mandatory judgment, which might necessitate coming to live another lifetime to pay for that sin. In the case of Elijah, he committed murders in the name of God, but paid for it in another life as John the Baptist. That was why as righteous as he was, God did not lift a finger to save him, and because of that he was so worried that he sent his disciples to ascertain from Christ if he was the Messiah. Elijah had a second chance, who knows how many times you yourself have reincarnated into this world?

I am not quite sure you read 1Cor 15 verfy well. if you did, you will observe, that once that body is sown, God gives the quickened body a new body as it suits Him. A resurrected body is a spiritual or angelic body, nothing more, nothing less. Do not get confused about this. It is a spiritual body. Every spirit is born through the womb of a woman for earthly dwelling.That is God's plan for now, and possibly after the final resurrection it will be that way, only that women will not need sex to have babies and would not feel pain to have babies. I am a spirit, you are a spirit, the only thing is that we are clothed with blood and water (flesh) for earthly dwelling. Nothing special , my dear friend about a resurrected body!

Paul in this submission admitted reincarnation

You could live in Canada, when you die, your spirit resurrects and the next incarnation, you are born to a family in Sudan or Malaysia as it pleases God. That is why it is stated that "their works follow after them" ..in other words their deeds in their incarnations are rewarded in the next incarnation. As a child of God, it is expected of you to always do good at all times, so that your good works follow after you.

I am glad you mentioned the anti-Christ. An anti-Christ by my reckoning is one who opposes the teaching of Christ. If Christ said he will sleep for 3 days and 3 nights, and you observe it for 2 days and 2 nights, what are you? if he tells you that John the Baptist was Elijah and you say their is no reincarnation, who are you? If you claim the title Holy Father and sit in a temple, with people paying obeisance to you and you are a mere man, subject to angels, are you not an anti-Christ?

The anti-Christ had been in existence from the time of the apostles. The 666 refereed to in Revelation means the rule of man. Man being created on the 6th day of creation, has given his soul to the devil. His worship of God (religion) has for so long been controlled by worldly teachings, not spiritual teachings. The true teachings of Our Lord Jesus Christ were lost, and what you have is a shaky foundation - the rule of man. However, we are happy that he has come by himself to establish his kingdom at this end of time. All mankind and religions have never held on to the accurate knowledge of the truth and would be shocked when they know the truth about God and the returned Christ. Christ had given a hint about this when he said that all nations would mourn.

Lets look them up; for clarity I have started from earlier verses and I would also stack up Luke in the mix.

Verse 28 is key to understanding all of this. The carcase (Christ returned) will already be somewhere with his eagles (the real children of God), while folks speculate about his coming. He already sneaks in (like a thief), gathers his elect to himself while the peripheral believers will be looking all over for him - desert, secret chambers, etc. Note in John 14, he said " he will come again and receive us unto himself "

Verse 30, says the sign of the son of man. Sign. That sign will cause all the earth to mourn. Question is why the mourning? Even "Christians" will mourn. Perhaps that sign is not only the cross, it has something else, something unexpected, something little known and unregarded, something even distasteful to their inaccurate beliefs. Christ had also testified in Luke 18:

If he does not find faith on earth when he comes, is it any surprise that the world will mourn when they finally realize he is the one?

Coming in the clouds of heaven is not a literal descent from the sky, otherwise verse 28 will have been hopeless. Ver 28, as also Revelation Chap 4, 5, 6,7 & (Dan 7:9-13) confirm that he will already be set up in his kingdom with all these things happening. All shall be aware of the presence of the returned Christ and witness the power and glory of God. In his first advent, he told the Jews that he came down from heaven. No man saw him descending. Why should you hope to see literally descent in this case? Never mind that in your 'rapture believe' he is suspended in mid air. The carnal interpretation of spiritual events is a major failing of the world's religions. But no worries, The Kingdoms of this world have now become the kingdom of Jehovah God and His Christ and he will reign for ever and ever.. Amen.
I am sorry, I can not say Amen to your "faith" or better religion. Any reader can make up his own mind. The Rapture is the word "caught up", but when we speak of the Rapture in 1.Thess 4:17 it goes together with the resurrection of the just. The resurrected bodies will not be born again from a woman. The bible speaks of Christ second coming, not of His second incarnation. The saints will come with Him to rule the earth, I can promise you, there are so many (Jude 14), there are not enough women to give birth to their incarnation. But you believe that this has already happen, I can tell you that the devil is still very much activ and when he is thrown to the earth, Jesus says it will be a time of tribulation (3 1/2 years) as it was not before nor afterwards. You should make a study how the world will be when Jesus reigns, the world will be full of His glory as the waters cover the see. I think you agree that this is now not the case.
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Old 10-20-2013, 07:31 AM
 
183 posts, read 140,650 times
Reputation: 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marlbron View Post
Wardendresden,
I think the scripture has a view on end times. Jesus talked about the coming Kingdom, the prophets, the apostles and Paul all had views on it. The problem is not in the works but in our interpretation of their works. For instance Jesus sanctiöned reincarnation but most Christians do not believe in it. Jesus said he will be in the earth's belly for 3days and 3nights, most christians claim he died on friday and resurrected on sunday: which is 2days, a direct contradiction to what Christ said. When he was lifted up a cloud received him from their sight but they kept looking up. 2 angels appeared and questioned why they were looking up? That Christ will come back in the same manner he went up. What manner did he go up? As a human being. How is a human born? Through the womb of a woman. The bible went on to reveal in his 2nd advent that he will be born of a woman (Rev 19:5), yet mainstream Christianity would want us to believe that he would suspend in the cloud and folks will rapture to meet him in the air and be with him in the air forever!

My question is "where is the air?" The air is in the world, therefore we will be with him in the world. But the understanding is still skewed, just like the jews are still awaiting his first coming from the sky, our fellow christians are also caught up in that folly.

Please post specifically where that is written.







Edit: I see the other posters covered this.


Clearly the church teaches so much trash, it's no wonder so many are confused.
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Old 10-20-2013, 07:41 AM
 
910 posts, read 1,086,111 times
Reputation: 119
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShepherdMaster View Post
Please post specifically where that is written.







Edit: I see the other posters covered this.


Clearly the church teaches so much trash, it's no wonder so many are confused.
Rev 12:5, covered already in other posts. My error, but I guess its too late to edit as other comments on it will be meaningless.
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