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Old 11-09-2013, 06:18 AM
 
Location: North Carolina
1,542 posts, read 1,059,229 times
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I just discovered this post today, and find myself caught up in the turmoil.
My personal belief is that Hank Hannegraff (The Bible Answer Man on radio) is correct when he says the great tribulation occurred in AD 70 when the Temple was completely destroyed. See mark 13:[1] And as he went out of the temple, one of his disciples saith unto him, Master, see what manner of stones and what buildings are here! [2] And Jesus answering said unto him, Seest thou these great buildings? there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. Hannegraff said that the words of Jesus in Matt.24:[21] For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be - referred to the abomination of desolation, which Jesus had described in Matt. ch.24, and Hannegraff interpreted as having happened in AD 70. So Hannegraff shot down the "Left behind" theorists who say that the Great Tribulation is yet to come 3 1/2 years after a fantasized rapture.

At the same time I agree with Malbron and Hannegraff that the rapture doctrine is false, that there will be only one 2nd coming of Christ. See 1 Cor. 15[52] In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed - at which time the 1000 year milenium reign of Christ on this earth will commence.
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Old 11-10-2013, 09:27 PM
 
264 posts, read 285,738 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marlbron View Post
I think it is not. And I will go through all the pro rapture verses to explain it to all who care to listen. There simply is no rapture. And the 1000 year of Christ is an event that has happened spiritually. I will prove all of this with reference to scripture.

John 14:1-4



Where is his father's house? It is the earth, the heavens, the multiverse, everywhere! Not all the mansions are led by him. Only one of the mansion is led by him. It means the other mansions are not dealing directly with the truth. They cannot be dealing directly with God, since he is the only way. In the context of the verses, he is going once, to prepare a special mansion for us...

He is coming again to receive us in that mansion himself. It tells me straight away that the mansion will be on earth. He is coming back to the earth to receive his chosen ones to himself. Note that he will be the one to select those he will receive into himself. That you are a church member or a christian cannot guarantee access to His Mansion. It is a process of election. Note that the mansion cannot be outside the earth because it is stated that he is coming again to receive us to himself in his particular mansion!

So the question is How will Christ come a second time. Is he going to be born a second time, or is he going to descend from heaven, or is he going to suspend in the air? Note that if he is going to suspend in the air, he will not be human, he will be an angel. But scripture tells us that his second coming is to rule. An angel will not rule. Man alone will rule. So he must come as man, not as an angel. For guidance see Heb 1: 5



Heb 2:16



These verses confirm that the coming Christ must come as man. This is further cemented in the revelations to John the divine, and Isaiah

Rev 12:


Isaiah 9:



Some folks argue that Isaiah 9 was referring to the birth of Jesus Christ, but that is false as the birth of Jesus was already predicted in Isaiah 7:14, and in 9, the child was meant to physically rule on earth, consistent with Rev 12. They both are referring to the rule of Christ on earth, his second coming.



Rev. 12:5 is the birth of the son's of God or children of God (Man Child-Body of Christ) who will be CAUGHT UP in the twinkling of an eye to God's throne, rather it means to a place called heaven or to the heavenly realm of high governmental positions as kings and priests and out of harms way is to be seen. Jesus ascended up to heaven, he was not caught up in a hurry as these will be before Satan and his fallen angels are thrown out of heaven.

There are only 3 times that the term CAUGHT UP is mentioned in the Bible and they all refer to heaven!
2 Cor 12:2
2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven.
KJV
As you see here, it happens at the sound of the angels trumpet.... 7th trumpet that is!
Rev 11:14-15
14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
KJV

1 Thess 4:16-17
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


Here in Rev 12:5 is our mother, heavenly Jerusalem above, the Bride being the Barren Woman who bores no natural children births the spiritual children of God in the MIDST/middle of the 7 years at the 3-1/2 yr. mark while the rest of her offspring who were not ready at his coming for his holy body will go to a place prepared by God.
KJV
Rev 12:5-6
5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
KJV
Rev 2:25-27
25 But that which ye have already hold fast till I come.
26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.
KJV
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Old 11-10-2013, 11:11 PM
 
91 posts, read 79,848 times
Reputation: 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert M Prince View Post
I just discovered this post today, and find myself caught up in the turmoil.
My personal belief is that Hank Hannegraff (The Bible Answer Man on radio) is correct when he says the great tribulation occurred in AD 70 when the Temple was completely destroyed. See mark 13:[1] And as he went out of the temple, one of his disciples saith unto him, Master, see what manner of stones and what buildings are here! [2] And Jesus answering said unto him, Seest thou these great buildings? there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. Hannegraff said that the words of Jesus in Matt.24:[21] For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be - referred to the abomination of desolation, which Jesus had described in Matt. ch.24, and Hannegraff interpreted as having happened in AD 70. So Hannegraff shot down the "Left behind" theorists who say that the Great Tribulation is yet to come 3 1/2 years after a fantasized rapture.

At the same time I agree with Malbron and Hannegraff that the rapture doctrine is false, that there will be only one 2nd coming of Christ. See 1 Cor. 15[52] In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed - at which time the 1000 year milenium reign of Christ on this earth will commence.
The word “rapture” does not appear in the Bible. The English word “rapture” is taken from the Latin word “rapere” and means to “catch away.” Theologically, it means that Christians will be caught away or taken to Heaven while they are still alive. There are several scriptural passages that Christians believe relate to this event, but the most cited is I Thessalonians 4:16, 17: “For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up (Greek word “harpazo”) together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”
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Old 11-12-2013, 06:01 AM
 
Location: North Carolina
1,542 posts, read 1,059,229 times
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There is only ONE 2nd coming of Christ and that is, as you quoted, I Thessalonians 4:16, 17: “For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.” The great tribulation occured in AD 70 as Christ said in Matt. 24:[21] For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
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Old 11-12-2013, 11:21 AM
 
17,570 posts, read 10,635,974 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert M Prince View Post
There is only ONE 2nd coming of Christ and that is, as you quoted, I Thessalonians 4:16, 17: “For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.” The great tribulation occured in AD 70 as Christ said in Matt. 24:[21] For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
The tribulation on Jerusalem occurred in 70 AD, the final or "Great Tribulation" prefigured by the one in 70 AD is yet to hit the entire world. The "rapture" of the "we which are alive and remain " occurs when Christ comes again, and he hasn't yet.
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Old 11-13-2013, 05:52 AM
 
Location: North Carolina
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Are you saying the rapture occurs when Jesus returns, beginning the 1000 year millenium? THAT IS WHAT i BELIEVE!
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Old 11-13-2013, 06:37 AM
 
17,570 posts, read 10,635,974 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert M Prince View Post
Are you saying the rapture occurs when Jesus returns, beginning the 1000 year millenium? THAT IS WHAT i BELIEVE!
Christ's return is to remove all wicked men and governments and establish his rule fully and firmly on the earth. Fulfilling the Lord's Prayer "... On earth as it is in heaven",and returning the earth to the condition God intended it to be in, such as the lion and lamb laying down together in peace and fulfilling Rev 21: 1-4.
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Old 12-18-2013, 04:37 PM
 
Location: North Carolina
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The sermon summary today on http://www.city-data.com/forum/group...ible-talk.html gives advice about being ready for the return of Christ just prior to the beginning of the Millenium.
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Old 12-18-2013, 04:54 PM
 
5,147 posts, read 2,533,544 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by expatCA View Post
The tribulation on Jerusalem occurred in 70 AD, the final or "Great Tribulation" prefigured by the one in 70 AD is yet to hit the entire world. The "rapture" of the "we which are alive and remain " occurs when Christ comes again, and he hasn't yet.
Is it rapture or resurrection ? Please notice it is death's sleep that is the subject at 1st Thess. 4 vs 13-17
[ some will have a first or earlier resurrection - Rev. 20 v 6 ]
' Flesh and blood ' [ physical ] can Not inherit the kingdom - 1st Cor. 15 v 50
Jesus was caught up in the clouds [ Acts 1 v 9 ] after he was resurrected from death, not before death and resurrection.
So, before the start of Jesus' 1000-year kingdom reign over earth, those resurrected to heaven [ Rev. 20,6; 5 vs 9,10 ]
will serve mankind along with Jesus as kings and priests over earth, or over earthly subjects of God's kingdom government in the hands of Christ Jesus.-- Psalm 72 vs 8,12-14
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Old 12-18-2013, 04:59 PM
 
Location: Florida -
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The 'Rapture' discussion seems to go round and round and round, ... but, does it really matter whether one believes in the 'rapture' or not? All believers will ultimately meet the Lord in the air, whether at the 'Rapture' or their own death. Further, a belief in the 'Rapture' (or not) has no bearing on one's Salvation or relationship with God in Christ. Even so, I believe there are many strong, compelling, scripture-based reasons to believe that the 'Rapture' will occur:

“10 Compelling Proofs for a Pre-Tribulation Rapture.”

1) A pre-Tribulation Rapture is referenced in Scripture -- Scripture repeatedly refers to the sudden removal (‘Rapture’) of believers. God’s promises to keep His people from His wrath and the time of the Great Tribulation.
a) Some are taken, others are left behind - Mat 24:37-44
b) Caught up to meet Lord in the clouds - 1 Th. 4:16-17
c) Some are kept from wrath - Rev 3:10, I Th. 5:9; Lk 21:36
d) Changed in the twinkling of an eye – 1 Cor 15:51-52
e) Wicked punished (Tribulation) Eph 5:6-7; Is. 26:20-21


2)God’s wrath and Great Tribulation judgment are not intended for Christ’s church - God has always removed His people from the path of His wrath and judgment.
a) God’s divine protection - ITh.1:10; 5:9; Rom 5:9; Eph 5:6;
Gal 3:16; 2 Pet 2:9; Rev 3:10
b) Noah–Gn7:1;Lot–Gn19:23-25; Passover-Ex12:12-14
c) Salvation: Rom 3:23; 6:23; IJN 1:10
d). Pray for deliverance from Great Tribulation (Lk 21:36)

3) Christ’s church is mysteriously absent during the entire 16 chapter description of the Great Tribulation on earth
a) “Church” 20 times and 7 letters - Rev 1-3
b) No reference to the church on earth during Great Tribulation
c) God’s people (church) appears from Heaven (Rev 19, 21:22) .

4) God’s protection of some believers, and wrath for others, is unprecedented
a) Only 144,000 are sealed / protected on earth Rev 7:1-14
b) “God is no respecter of persons” - Act 10:34
c) All believers are one; One bread/body - Gal 3:28; 1Cor 10:17


5). The removal of God’s Holy Spirit makes way for the rise of the Antichrist during the Great Tribulation.[Yet God has promised to never leave or take His Spirit from believers]
a) Holy Spirit removed - 2 Thes 2:7-8
b) Satan’s empowered to make war against saints - Rev 13:7-8
c) Take a number; worship the beast – Rev. 13:14-16
d) God will be with believers always - Mat 28:20+
e). Nothing separates believers from God’s love – Rom 8:36-38

6). The 7-year Great Tribulation is a final opportunity for the lost to repent and be saved

a) Remaining new believers are martyred (#5) - Rev 6:9-11
b) Multitude of martyred Tribulation believers – Rev. 7:14
c) It is not God’s will that any should perish - 2 Pet 3:9
d) Lives of last generation lost otherwise cut short

7) Christ will first return in the air/clouds (rapture)After the Tribulation, Christ will return to earth on the Mount of Olives

a) Meet Lord in the Clouds - I Thes 4:16-17
b) “I will come back and take you with me” - Jn 14:23
c) Return with army of believers.- Rev 19:14
d) Feet will stand on mount of Olives – Zech. 14:3-4
e) City Split in three parts - Zech 14 & Rev 16:17-19

8) (Pre-Trib Rapture) Conditions on earth toward the middle and end of the Great Tribulation are horrific and inconsistent with those described when believers are caught-up to meet the Lord in the air (Rapture) –Mat. 24:37-44; 1Thes 4:16-17

a) There will be Tribulation on earth unlike any time ever before or again. - Mat 24:21
b) People working side-by-side in fields; on roofs; etc.; eating, drinking, marrying and suddenly taken - Mat 24:37-44; Lk 17
c) All grass and wheat destroyed; Ships & marine life are destroyed; Fresh water is poison and turned to blood;
Men attacked by demons; develop boils, and are killed. Rev 8:7; 16:3-17

9).. A mid Tribulation rapture leaves no saints on earth to make war against, during Satan’s 42-month War
a) At 42-months, beast given power to make war against the saints and overcome (martyr) them. - Rev 13:4-8 –

10) There are significant differences between Christ’s Rapture of the church, and the Glorious Appearing of Christ at the end of the Great Tribulation
a) Believers are gathered from heaven as army; The earth will mourn - Mat 24:30-31 – Rev 19:14;
b) Believers rejoice when Christ Comes - Jn 16:21-22; I Ch 16:10; Lk 19:37; Rev 12:12
c). Earth will mourn at final return of Christ
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