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I can only hope that there is a pre-tribulation rapture. I don't want to be here during the Great Tribulation!!
You can be quite confident both that the rapture is real, and that it is pre-tribulational. I hope you have read my thread on the subject. Whether by physical death or by the rapture, no Church-age believer will be in the Tribulation. I hope that the reference to my own thread which I have not named or linked to is not construed as an attempt to hi-jack this thread. That is not my intention.
Last edited by Michael Way; 10-09-2013 at 10:05 AM..
1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 (15) For this we are saying to you by the word of the Lord, that we, the living, who are surviving to the presence of the Lord, should by no means outstrip those who are put to repose, (16) for the Lord Himself will be descending from heaven with a shout of command, with the voice of the Chief Messenger, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ shall be rising first, (17) Thereupon we, the living who are surviving, shall at the same time be snatched away together with them in clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. And thus shall we always be together with the Lord."
The snatching away is not an invention of man. The problem however is that "The Left Behind" camp take certain verses from the gospels and improperly use them as if they are instructing the Jews on a "rapture."
For instance, take the verses:
Mat 24:40 Then two shall be in the field; one is taken along and one left:
Mat 24:41 two grinding at the millstone; one is taken along and one left.
The Left Behind rapture camp believes the two above verses are talking about the rapture. They aren't about it at all.
Jesus will come back to Israel with His fiery messengers and will cull out of Israel all the bad Israelites:
Mat 13:41 The Son of Mankind shall be dispatching His messengers,
and they shall be culling out of His kingdom all the snares and those doing lawlessness,
So one of the two in the field will be taken out of Israel and cast out.
One of the two at the millstone will be taken out of Israel and cast out.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marlbron
if you take it literally, then you miss the point. Will you be with Lord always in the clouds? Or in the air? Where is the air? Is the air = the clouds?. The use of the term snatched away conveys a carnal meaning to a spiritual write up.
That's O.K. Marlbronn if you don't take the snatching away to meet the Lord in the air literally. Are the dead in Christ literally dead? Are they literally in their graves? Were the Thessalonians literally grieving over them? Of course the snatching away to MEET the Lord in the air is just as literal as all the literal points Paul brought up just prior. Paul does not intimate we will always be together with the Lord IN THE AIR. We meet Him in the air and then we will always be with Him wherever He takes us among the celestials.
Quote:
God has created only one channel for a human to enter the earth - the womb of a woman for now. Any other way, that being is no more human but an angel. But an angel cannot rule over man, so Christ 2nd coming must be as his brethren in all respects and must be born the way you and I are, hence we see in Rev 12:5.
Um, sorry to have to break this to ya but Christ is still alive and doesn't need to be re-born to enter the earth again.
Quote:
Isreal refers to the whole world, not the state Israel. If you recollect the parable of the wicked husbandmen, Christ categorically stated that the physical location will not be among the Jews. In Revelation he talked about a New Jerusalem.
Israel refers to a collective group of 12 tribes and refers at times to true Israelite believers. Please post the exact quote about the wicked husbandman.
That's O.K. Marlbronn if you don't take the snatching away to meet the Lord in the air literally. Are the dead in Christ literally dead? Are they literally in their graves? Were the Thessalonians literally grieving over them? Of course the snatching away to MEET the Lord in the air is just as literal as all the literal points Paul brought up just prior. Paul does not intimate we will always be together with the Lord IN THE AIR. We meet Him in the air and then we will always be with Him wherever He takes us among the celestials.
1st Thess. 4 v 17 connects 'caught up ' with 'clouds'
Jesus was Not caught up while alive on earth in the clouds. Jesus was Not caught up until ' after ' his resurrection and ascension to heaven. - Acts 1 v 9
Meeting in the air for Jesus' spiritual ' brothers ' [ 1st Thess 4 v13; 1st Cor. 15 v 50; Matthew 25 v 40 ] would be at the time of their death - 1st Cor. 15 v 52 - at the sound of the resurrection trumpet's call.- 1st Thess. 4 v 16
I think it is not. And I will go through all the pro rapture verses to explain it to all who care to listen. There simply is no rapture. And the 1000 year of Christ is an event that has happened spiritually. I will prove all of this with reference to scripture.
John 14:1-4
Where is his father's house? It is the earth, the heavens, the multiverse, everywhere! Not all the mansions are led by him. Only one of the mansion is led by him. It means the other mansions are not dealing directly with the truth. They cannot be dealing directly with God, since he is the only way. In the context of the verses, he is going once, to prepare a special mansion for us...
He is coming again to receive us in that mansion himself. It tells me straight away that the mansion will be on earth. He is coming back to the earth to receive his chosen ones to himself. Note that he will be the one to select those he will receive into himself. That you are a church member or a christian cannot guarantee access to His Mansion. It is a process of election. Note that the mansion cannot be outside the earth because it is stated that he is coming again to receive us to himself in his particular mansion!
So the question is How will Christ come a second time. Is he going to be born a second time, or is he going to descend from heaven, or is he going to suspend in the air? Note that if he is going to suspend in the air, he will not be human, he will be an angel. But scripture tells us that his second coming is to rule. An angel will not rule. Man alone will rule. So he must come as man, not as an angel. For guidance see Heb 1: 5
Heb 2:16
These verses confirm that the coming Christ must come as man. This is further cemented in the revelations to John the divine, and Isaiah
Rev 12:
Isaiah 9:
Some folks argue that Isaiah 9 was referring to the birth of Jesus Christ, but that is false as the birth of Jesus was already predicted in Isaiah 7:14, and in 9, the child was meant to physically rule on earth, consistent with Rev 12. They both are referring to the rule of Christ on earth, his second coming.
The mansion of Jn 14 is not on earth, it is the New Jerusalem, which is now in Heaven and will come down into the new earth and heaven after the Millennium. Jesus has now a resurrected body, which is not mortal as our human body from dust, but immortal out of heavenly material, which can go through walls, can disappear in a moment, can travel through the air as Jesus all did, and the bible says, we will have the same body. Jesus comes back as He went (Act 1:11) in the air, before it is dark, because the sun, moon and stars are not shining and than Jesus appears in the glory of His Farther and the whole earth are lightened as a stroke does. He will not be born again from a woman, from where you have such a teaching?
Heb says that He is the High Priest and the Son of man, so He can rule from the throne of David over the whole earth in His resurrected body.
Isa says in 7:14 that Jesus is born from a virgin and in chapter 9 that this child is the Son of God (given to us). He will rule and He is a wonder, a counselor, a spiritual father and the mighty God for them, that believe in Him. But they that do not believe like the Jews have other interpretations.
The mansion of Jn 14 is not on earth, it is the New Jerusalem, which is now in Heaven and will come down into the new earth and heaven after the Millennium. Jesus has now a resurrected body, which is not mortal as our human body from dust, but immortal out of heavenly material, which can go through walls, can disappear in a moment, can travel through the air as Jesus all did, and the bible says, we will have the same body. Jesus comes back as He went (Act 1:11) in the air, before it is dark, because the sun, moon and stars are not shining and than Jesus appears in the glory of His Farther and the whole earth are lightened as a stroke does. He will not be born again from a woman, from where you have such a teaching?
Heb says that He is the High Priest and the Son of man, so He can rule from the throne of David over the whole earth in His resurrected body.
Isa says in 7:14 that Jesus is born from a virgin and in chapter 9 that this child is the Son of God (given to us). He will rule and He is a wonder, a counselor, a spiritual father and the mighty God for them, that believe in Him. But they that do not believe like the Jews have other interpretations.
Zur
Someone on earth says he is coming back, and you say he was reffering to heaven? The mansion he prepared for us is the kingdom of God on earth. I think you also pray "our Father who art in heaven"? If you reflect carefully on that prayer, we are praying for the heavenly kingdom to manifest on earth.
How did Christ prepare this mansion? It was prepared by the death on the cross as a foundation and it is now sustained by the Holy Spirit.
That kingdom on earth is located in a New Jerusalem, not the old Jerusalem in contention now. He had already told the Jews that.
What body did he have in the heavens before his first advent?
There is no rapture and you don't go to heaven when you die. OT: sleeping with their fathers. NT: asleep in christ (Yahshua).
You remain in the grave until the return of Yahshua.
There are three resurrections.
The condemned.
The Righteous.
The entire House of Israel, see Valley of the Dry Bones.
There is no hell, not as christianity teaches. The second death is the death of death (satan, Lucifer) therefore there can be no hell. Spirit beings cannot be burned. Fire is cleansing, removes, destroys, renews.
See 'sea of glass', a place where the 'converted' will be taken as the earth is again reformed and readied for Yahuah's reign on earth, His Kingdom.
Before Yahshua's return He will destroy the earth 1/3 at a time, destroying the so-called christian with everyone else. Everyone gets the tribulation. Yahuah always leaves a remnant, His seed will survive the tribulation.
The idea that the 'christian' will be whisked away is laughable.
Zur
Someone on earth says he is coming back, and you say he was reffering to heaven? The mansion he prepared for us is the kingdom of God on earth. I think you also pray "our Father who art in heaven"? If you reflect carefully on that prayer, we are praying for the heavenly kingdom to manifest on earth.
How did Christ prepare this mansion? It was prepared by the death on the cross as a foundation and it is now sustained by the Holy Spirit.
That kingdom on earth is located in a New Jerusalem, not the old Jerusalem in contention now. He had already told the Jews that.
What body did he have in the heavens before his first advent?
The kingdom of God is now hidden in believers, it is not yet manifest, this will be at Christ second coming. The New Jerusalem is now in Heaven. The bible tells us that this city is not built by man but by God. It is part of the kingdom of God but it is not the same.
I do not know what you mean with prepared at the cross and sustained by the Spirit. You have a scripture?
The New Jerusalem comes down from Heaven, it is not the old or a new on this earth. It is part of the new creation of Heaven and earth.
Abraham saw 3 angels, one was the Lord Jesus in His preexistence.
that was precise and funny, Thrillobyte. Will they ever learn? These people have refused to see the big picture! Pharisees, anyone?
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