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I came across those old thread and would like to make some comments about it.
This is a common passage used to prove there's a rapture:
[my emphasis]
When I was a young believer I was told/taught that upon death believers went to heaven. At the time I had no reason to doubt it, but when I began to read the Scriptures for myself and I noticed several things, that when put together, puzzled me:
Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
Dan. 12:1,2
1 ¶ And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
Then there's the story of Mary/Martha's brother Lazarus' death whom Christ resurrected from where? Heaven? No, from the grave: Joh 11
41 Then they took away the stone from the place where the dead was laid. And Jesus lifted up his eyes, and said, Father, I thank thee that thou hast heard me.
42 And I knew that thou hearest me always: but because of the people which stand by I said it, that they may believe that thou hast sent me.
43 And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth.
This was the beginning of my understanding that the 'dead' aren't in heaven [or sent to hell fire], but in the grave asleep waiting for the resurrection at the *last day.
*Christ's own words in regards to the last day:
Joh 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Joh 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will *raise him up at the last day
*anistemi
Note also Martha's reply to Christ in Joh. 11:
24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at *the last day.
And His reply back to her in v. 25:
Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
*What did Christ mean by the last day?
He says again that eternal life is after the resurrection or The Resurrection of the Righteous,
[see Dan. 12:1,2 above]
Acts 24:15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.
Luke 14:
12 Then said he also to him that bade him, When thou makest a dinner or a supper, call not thy friends, nor thy brethren, neither thy kinsmen, nor thy rich neighbours; lest they also bid thee again, and a recompence be made thee.
13 But when thou makest a feast, call the poor, the maimed, the lame, the blind:
14 And thou shalt be blessed; for they cannot recompense thee: for thou shalt be recompensed at the resurrection of the just.
These passages showed me this did not happen at the time of one's death, but at the time span know as Aharit HaYamim (The End of DAYS ) which is just before Christ's second coming.
BTW, it makes for a very interseting study to find all the passages that speak of the last day, end of days, etc.
Continuing...
Next I rea in 1 Corin. 15
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
32 If after the manner of men I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantageth it me, if the dead *rise not? let us eat and drink; for to morrow we die.
*another example of egeiro
Mark 16:And he saith unto them, Be not affrighted: Ye seek Jesus of Nazareth, which was crucified: he is risen; [egeiro] he is not here: behold the place where they laid him.
Then I was told there is a rapture and I've already mentioned in another thread how I came to realize this 'theory' isn't correct so I won't repeat that, but when I thought about 'going to heaven' when we die I couldn't reconcile that with the quote at the very top of this post: "the dead in Christ shall rise first." Why? this word rise is the exact same word as used here [and many other places]:
1 Thess. 1:10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.
So I asked myself this question. "If believers are in heaven didn't they then have to be resurrected to different body to enter a spiritual realm? And if so then why do the dead in Christ have to be raised from the dead again/twice?(supposedly at a rapture) " The answer should be obvious. They don't. Believers are resurrected or changed at Christ's second coming. ONE coming not 1/1/2.
Again I say, after many years of study became obvious to me...believers aren't resurrected/changed twice, but once at Christ's second coming.
So just for the record I'm not a preterist, universalist, a JW, Morman, or any such thing. I'm just a believer who God has given a 'holy curiosity' to find the truth and be set free from men's traditions.
Very good points. The issue of being raised (rapture) at some point should really not be the issue. It is the other baggage that is the problem. Prior to the Trib, during the trib or after the trib and yes leaving your clothes behind.
The hope is the resurrection of YOU, not a part of you but ALL of you. Kinda limits it to one resurrection/rapture/raising
Matthew, your interpretation is strange as usual. I do not believe you read the scripture Mat 27: 53, how can dead bodies walk and appear to many? The saints were raised after Jesus was raised and are first fruits.
Zur, sorry I was Not more clear. I think we agree that Jesus was Not resurrected the day he died.
Jesus went to the grave the day Jesus died - Acts 2 vs 27,31,32.
Please notice the setting of Matthew 27 is the day of Jesus' death Not his resurrection.
No one could go to heaven before Jesus - John 3 v 13
At Matthew 27 v 52 it is still the day of death, and it was the bodies [ corpses ] Not the living persons themselves being resurrected but arose out of the ground were their dead bodies. [ Matthew adds in verse 53 about after Jesus' resurrection which we know was Not the day of his death as verse 52 is.] On the day of his death was the exposing earthquake.
So, the ' who ' that came out of the graves or grave yard and went to the holy city Jerusalem ' after ' Jesus was resurrected on Sunday in verse 53 is Not mentioned. Jesus does Not ascend to heaven until the time of Acts 1 v 9 which was well after his resurrection day. Jesus is Not given the resurrection keys until the time of Revelation [ 1 vs 5,18 ] which was Not the first century. Revelation was written long after the day of Jesus death and resurrection. Revelation was written at the end of the first century, but the time setting for Revelation is for our day or time frame.
Also, there would have been No need for Paul's question at 1st Cor. 4 v 8 if they were already resurrected saints or holy ones already ruling ' without ' the rest of them.- Daniel 7 vs 13,14; 18.22,27
The saints, or holy ones, are called to reign with Christ in heaven meaning their resurrection is Not in the ' flesh ' because ' flesh' [physical ] can Not inherit the kingdom according to 1st Cor. 15 v 50. No physical resurrection for saints or holy ones.
They are raised as heavenly first fruits before the earthly resurrection starts during Jesus' millennial-long day of reigning over earth, or over earthly subjects of God's thousand-year kingdom.- Psalm 72 v 8
You are confusing the Tribulational saints with the church. They are two different groups of people. The church will be removed from the earth in the rapture before the Tribulation, and then return with Christ to the earth at the end of the Tribulation. All the Jews from wherever they are on the earth will be gathered to Israel when Christ returns. They will not be removed from the earth.
There are only saints mentioned in Revelation. You are making another group of people out of them. This Tribulation saints die in Christ (Rev 14:13). They belong to the church and are blessed. You have a scripture that someone in Christ does not belong to the church? According the Jews, God will deal differently with them as you think. He will graft them in, the Gentiles job is to help them to come to Christ. If you replace them you are in danger to be cut off (Rom 11:22).
First, the holy ones or saints of Matthew 27 v 52 were raised up Not as in resurrected but as their bodies were exposed because of the quake. Exposed as to mean lifted up or arose out of the ground. Their lifeless bodies were tossed around out in the open. Remember Jesus is firstborn from the dead. No one resurrected to heaven before Jesus- Col. 1 v 18; John 3 v 13 Jesus was Not resurrected the day he died.- Acts 2 vs 27,31
So, it would be the living people at the grave site who would be the ones who went into the holy city appearing before many.
Those saints or spiritual ' brothers' of Christ [ Daniel 7 v 18 ] have a first or earlier resurrection to heaven [ Rev. 20 v 6.] before the majority of mankind is resurrected back to healthy physical life on earth during Jesus' 1000-year kingdom reign over earth, or over earthly subjects of God's kingdom.- Psalm 72 v 8
Let's look at the passages first: Matt.27
50 ¶ Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which sleptarose,
53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
Quote:
First, the holy ones or saints of Matthew 27 v 52 were raised up Not as in resurrected but as their bodies were exposed because of the quake. Exposed as to mean lifted up or arose out of the ground. Their lifeless bodies were tossed around out in the open.So, it would be the living people at the grave site who would be the ones who went into the holy city appearing before many.
Okay, I'm not sure if I fully understand what you are saying here? Are you saying these 'saints' didn't come back to life
( arose means "to return to life again') and go into Jerusalem?
Quote:
So, it would be the living people at the grave site who would be the ones who went into the holy city appearing before many.
I'm sorry, but I don't see this in those passages at all??
Quote:
Remember Jesus is firstborn from the dead.
Yes...
Quote:
No one resurrected to heaven before Jesus- Col. 1 v 18; John 3 v 13
Agreed. In fact John 3:3 says no one has ascended to heaven except Christ.
Quote:
Jesus was Not resurrected the day he died.- Acts 2 vs 27,31
No, of course not. He was in the grave 3 full days and 3 full nights. He died on Wed. or Passover and rose from the dead 3 days later on the weekly Sabbath/Sat.
Quote:
Those saints or spiritual ' brothers' of Christ [ Daniel 7 v 18 ] have a first or earlier resurrection to heaven [ Rev. 20 v 6.]
Again, sorry, but I don't see these 'brothers' resurrect to heaven in the passages you posted.
Quote:
before the majority of mankind is resurrected back to healthy physical life on earth during Jesus' 1000-year kingdom reign over earth, or over earthly subjects of God's kingdom.- Psalm 72 v 8
One again, I don't see the majority of mankind resurrect back to life anywhere in the Scriptures, let alone in Psa. 72:8.
According to Matthew 20 v 28 Jesus' ransom sacrifice for us covers MANY. Many or the majority of mankind [ exception Matthew 12 v 32 ] will have a resurrection. Only some as first fruits having a first or earlier resurrection to heaven [ Rev. 20 v 6; 5 vs 9,10; 2 v 10 ], but the majority [ John 3 v 13 ] will have a resurrection on earth as being part of the righteous and unrighteous.- Acts 24 v 15.
Remember God's promise to Abraham [ Genesis 12 v 3; 22 v 18] that all families of earth will be blessed, and all nations of earth will be blessed. Blessed with the healing and curing of earth's nations through Jesus as Messiah.- Rev. 22 v 2
Why do you say at the end of the millennium ?________
Satan is released at the end - Rev. 20 v 7 - but by that time all of the dead, who are not called to heaven, will be resurrected on earth out of the grave [ Bible's temporary hell ] according to Rev. 20 vs 13,14, then emptied-out hell and death are cast into that symbolic ' second death' for vacated hell [ grave ].
Satan is loosed of of his prison to try to deceive those who are already resurrected on earth during [ Not at the end ] but during Jesus millennial-long day of reigning over earth.
Those who died last will be resurrected first on earth, meaning the last ones who died before the ' time of separation ' of Matthew 25 vs 31,32 will be resurrected first on earth to be on hand to welcome back those who died before them. Going all the way back to one of Noah's three sons to Noah to Adam. [ the only exception will be those who are called to be ' princes' in the earth - Psalm 45 v 16 - such as the faithful ones of old listed in Hebrews chapter 11 those believers will be back on earth sooner ]. Also, all who lived before Jesus died will have a healthy physical resurrection back to life on earth.
- John 3 v 13; Acts 24 v 15
Satan cannot tempt the saints who are resurrected in the First Resurrection, they have everlasting life. The rest of the dead will be the just and unjust at the final white throne judgement. Read 1. Cor 15, it gives you the order of the resurrections. Between the First and last resurrection are 1000 years, the time of the Millennium. The ones that are on earth during the millennium are the left behind, they are few, but will multiply again, obviously living longer, but death is not yet done away. The OT saints are resurrected with Christ and are now in Heaven. John 3:13 confirms that Jesus is the first that went to Heaven. The First Resurrection that is also the Rapture is for them that are in Christ. All the rest of the dead are raised 1000 years later.
I think it is not. And I will go through all the pro rapture verses to explain it to all who care to listen. There simply is no rapture. And the 1000 year of Christ is an event that has happened spiritually. I will prove all of this with reference to scripture.
John 14:1-4
Where is his father's house? It is the earth, the heavens, the multiverse, everywhere! Not all the mansions are led by him. Only one of the mansion is led by him. It means the other mansions are not dealing directly with the truth. They cannot be dealing directly with God, since he is the only way. In the context of the verses, he is going once, to prepare a special mansion for us...
He is coming again to receive us in that mansion himself. It tells me straight away that the mansion will be on earth. He is coming back to the earth to receive his chosen ones to himself. Note that he will be the one to select those he will receive into himself. That you are a church member or a christian cannot guarantee access to His Mansion. It is a process of election. Note that the mansion cannot be outside the earth because it is stated that he is coming again to receive us to himself in his particular mansion!
So the question is How will Christ come a second time. Is he going to be born a second time, or is he going to descend from heaven, or is he going to suspend in the air? Note that if he is going to suspend in the air, he will not be human, he will be an angel. But scripture tells us that his second coming is to rule. An angel will not rule. Man alone will rule. So he must come as man, not as an angel. For guidance see Heb 1: 5
Heb 2:16
These verses confirm that the coming Christ must come as man. This is further cemented in the revelations to John the divine, and Isaiah
Rev 12:
Isaiah 9:
Some folks argue that Isaiah 9 was referring to the birth of Jesus Christ, but that is false as the birth of Jesus was already predicted in Isaiah 7:14, and in 9, the child was meant to physically rule on earth, consistent with Rev 12. They both are referring to the rule of Christ on earth, his second coming.
GINOLJC,
Addressing the OP only.
I agree to a point. the Lord's return is two fold. what do I mean by that?. his return is a Spiritual one FIRST, then a bodily one. on the day of Pentecost he did return in Spirit, and in Power. that is his first of his two fold coming. which he fulfilled according to Matthew 16:28, "Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom". he came into his Kingdom in Spirit and Power, which is the Holy Spirit. and you're right the mansion is Spiritual. and the second coming of his two fold return is in Bodily form, so that every eye will see him. supportive scripture, Revelation 1:7 "Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen".
and again, I agree, that you're correct in the first return is spiritual, unseen, but the second of the two folds return, as in Rev 1:7 is a seen one, supportive scripture, Hebrews 9:28 "So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation".
but addressing Isaiah 9:6. I believe it is speaking of our Lord's birth. here's why I say this. this child, this son, is called the "EVERLASTING FATHER", and that's God. and he have the government on his shoulders, and that's God. supportive scripture, Matthew 2:4 "And when he had gathered all the chief priests and scribes of the people together, he demanded of them where Christ should be born.5 And they said unto him, In Bethlehem of Judaea: for thus it is written by the prophet,6 And thou Bethlehem, in the land of Juda, art not the least among the princes of Juda: for out of thee shall come a Governor, that shall rule my people Israel”. and the prophet that wrote that was, Micah 5:2 "But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting”. here in this verse, “RULER”, is the Hebrew word, H4910 מָשַׁל mashal, which the KJV can translate as “GOVERNOR”. and now the question, who is the Governor?. Psalms 22:28 "For the kingdom is the LORD'S: and he is the governor among the nations”. LORD, all caps, So it is God who is the Governor. and here in Psalms, “GOVERNOR”, is “RULER”, as in Micah 5:2,the Same word. so se can see that the Lord Jesus is God in flesh as Matthew 1:23 states, “God with us”.
but if you have something else to the fact, please post it.
I think it is not. And I will go through all the pro rapture verses to explain it to all who care to listen. There simply is no rapture. And the 1000 year of Christ is an event that has happened spiritually. I will prove all of this with reference to scripture.
John 14:1-4
Where is his father's house? It is the earth, the heavens, the multiverse, everywhere! Not all the mansions are led by him. Only one of the mansion is led by him. It means the other mansions are not dealing directly with the truth. They cannot be dealing directly with God, since he is the only way. In the context of the verses, he is going once, to prepare a special mansion for us...
He is coming again to receive us in that mansion himself. It tells me straight away that the mansion will be on earth. He is coming back to the earth to receive his chosen ones to himself. Note that he will be the one to select those he will receive into himself. That you are a church member or a christian cannot guarantee access to His Mansion. It is a process of election. Note that the mansion cannot be outside the earth because it is stated that he is coming again to receive us to himself in his particular mansion!
So the question is How will Christ come a second time. Is he going to be born a second time, or is he going to descend from heaven, or is he going to suspend in the air? Note that if he is going to suspend in the air, he will not be human, he will be an angel. But scripture tells us that his second coming is to rule. An angel will not rule. Man alone will rule. So he must come as man, not as an angel. For guidance see Heb 1: 5
Heb 2:16
These verses confirm that the coming Christ must come as man. This is further cemented in the revelations to John the divine, and Isaiah
Rev 12:
Isaiah 9:
Some folks argue that Isaiah 9 was referring to the birth of Jesus Christ, but that is false as the birth of Jesus was already predicted in Isaiah 7:14, and in 9, the child was meant to physically rule on earth, consistent with Rev 12. They both are referring to the rule of Christ on earth, his second coming.
You are so far into left field you are in a completely different ball park altogether.
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