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Old 10-02-2013, 12:17 PM
 
Location: Denver, CO
9,328 posts, read 5,515,746 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Postman View Post
Christians constantly emphasis that the Bible is the rock upon which faith in God, Jesus, salvation, heaven.etc is built on. Christians and Atheists have an 'all or nothing' approach to the Bible: either it's all true, or it's all bunk.

It's claimed that the Bible is the very Word of God, inspired by God. Of course there are tons of issues with it, but when considering the arguments why the Bible is divine, for me, it all hangs on prophecy. For instance, the website gotquestions.org gives the following reasons:

Is the Bible truly God's Word?

To be honest, none of these is that conclusive (let alone proof) except proven prophecy...even that's not totally conclusive, but it at least suggests there's something supernatural, that perhaps some divine intelligence is at work here. Things like archeological evidence - even if the Bible is historically accurate, that means nothing if those divine, supernatural events (God talking to Moses, parting of the Red Sea, Virgin Birth, Resurrection) did not take place. Internal/external evidences don't tell us anything about whether it's divine/inspired or not...nor does the 'unity' or the 'integrity of it's human authors' which is probably the weakest of the arguments, as well as the argument that many lives have been changed by it. Many lives have been changed by the Quran or Dale Carnegie's 'How to win friends and influence people' but that does not make Dale Carnegie God.

I'm a struggling Christian, and I honestly wish there were more solid reasons to believe that the Bible is God's word, but considering so much of it is implausible (Noah's ark, Jewish cosmology, anthropocentric God) or disturbing/depression (that most people are pre-destined to be condemned to eternal torment, which I don't believe the Bible teaches actually but that's what many believe it teaches) I feel I need more solid reasons to believe.

So can anyone help me out here? Provide me with rock solid evidence that the Bible has a supernatural author that cannot be easily explained away?
I'm a realist when it comes to reading the scriptures. Even the most conservative textual theologians agree that there are literally THOUSANDS of errors existing between the 5700+ manuscripts of the New Testament alone. In fact, there are more errors than there are words in the New Testament.

So how does the Bible become the "Word of God?"

It is through the eyes of faith. It is through eyes that can see past the mistakes, past the scribal additions, past the sometimes embellished stories, past the dogma of churches and individuals each of whom proclaim to have the "true" message.

Was God able to accomplish His purpose through Abraham a man who lied about his wife being his sister, through Moses who killed a man and broke the first tablets of the ten commandments over a rock, through David who committed adultery and murdered the woman's husband to cover up his sin?

If you believe that God was able to do that, then you can also believe that God's purpose can be divined through reading the scriptures.

Everyone who reads the scriptures interprets them and in some way CHANGES the original meaning of the words by the authors---the authors who ALSO had a purpose in writing them. The mistake we all make is in thinking that God is trying to send exactly the same message to each person. The eyes can't be the ears, the arms don't serve the same purpose as the legs, smell doesn't replace taste. But all CAN work together for a unified body.

So it is with the body of Christ, His universal church. We just keep thinking that the arms ought to be able to reach the branches overhead, the eyes ought to "see" the sound the birds make, and if something smells bad it automatically tastes bad (not always so!).

So I recommend continue reading the scripture, begin a study of the historical times of Jesus, listen to no one who claims to have the one solution. Seek and you will find. Knock and it will be opened to you.

Blessings.
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Old 10-02-2013, 02:50 PM
 
8,116 posts, read 7,091,358 times
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I Believe that the Bible is indeed the very Word of the Living God through the creator of all thing with is Son Jesus and His Spirit are all well and alive ........See I have a personal witness that the bible is true , because I experienced the Promise of the Father God who promised Jesus to send His Spirit as the comforter for those who believe in faith and expect to receive in repentance will receive the Spirit of the living God on their lives through the righteousness of Jesus Christ .... Just like the Chapter of the Books of Acts 2 which the Holy Spirit came on the followers at the day of Pentecost in the upper room .... Lord Jesus brought His Holy Spirit on to my life , just as they had at that day in Jerusalem , where His is still today 15 years here Jesus Spirit will never leave here or forsake here, as Jesus brought here the real deal where God and the Bible is alive ......
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Old 10-02-2013, 03:38 PM
 
40,190 posts, read 26,820,188 times
Reputation: 6059
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xian Catalyst View Post
I hold to the inerrant message. IF Adam was a true tale or not is irrelevant, the lessons and conclusions of it are solid.
if Noah was a true tale or not is irrelevant the lessons and conclusions are solid.
Few people, even atheists doubt that Jesus known as the Christ actually existed,. Correction few serious scholars. The debate is over what/who he was.
The message Christ taught, and His disciples taught, (NOT NECESSARILY the stuff you hear in Church, but what they taught) will change your life. It will change your life how it states it will change your life. KNOWING Him, is a result of maturity in the lifestyle. If you want to KNOW He is there or not, live the life, it says you will have your proof then.
What do you lose, you live a better life, how does that suck?
Quote:
Originally Posted by nateswift View Post
OUTstanding observation! I have a feeling a lot of people would miss what you are saying so I want to emphasize it strongly.
If the Old Testament is a collection of myths, legends, biased histories and amazing social commentary that reflects a growing perception on the nature of God within one ethnic group, is it less of a lesson than if it had been dictated by God with all its faults and contradictions? I think the former view is more inspiring.
If the New Testament is a collection of the ideas, perceptions and memories of the earliest Christians that was subject to some contradictory ideas and to some "creative editing" both before and after composition, but the message of love as a basis for relating with God and man is clear, does it matter that the book is not perfect?
One other point: did Jesus promise a book nto lead us into all truth or something else?
To the extent that nate's take on your post is accurate . . . I have a better and more favorable view of your position, Xian. But the following troubles me a bit.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xian Catalyst View Post
Catholic Dogma doesn't match-up with your first sentence... It's not using the word LOGOS correctly. The Bible and Christ are both LOGOS but they are not the same LOGOS. Your library in high school was LOGOS, your lease agreement was LOGOS, etc.
I have explored this philosophically from an abstract perspective about what a "word" or "logos" actually is. It is a cognitive construct that has meaning and substance ONLY within a consciousness. The symbols that comprise it only attain meaning within a consciousness. Since our reality is established by the consciousness of God (universal field) and since our consciousness is a cellular component (resonant neural field) of God's consciousness . . . the significance of "logos" or the "word" as used in John becomes more salient, IMO. It is the meaning reflecting God's true consciousness or nature. Christ is that reflection . . . NOT the Bible or your lease agreement.
Quote:
I think the one thing you need to know is if someone says the Bible is the ONLY AUTHORITY, Paul told timothy to pass on what he SAID (not wrote) and make sure the next generation passes it on too.
The Bible as the sole authority, says point blank it's not the sole authority.
I agree with this, of course.
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Old 10-02-2013, 07:49 PM
 
Location: Melbourne, Australia
9,781 posts, read 16,288,926 times
Reputation: 2833
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pleroo View Post
I like your take on this, Julian.

Postman, for me the Bible is a mixture of truths and untruths, and a snapshot of ancient beliefs about God. The truths are profound, and the misconceptions about God are an interesting study in themselves.

However, for those of us who were raised and indoctrinated to read the bible through the lens of belief in a wrathful God and of doom and gloom for those who don't believe the "right" things, sometimes putting some distance between ourselves and the bible is a good idea. As well, for those of us who were taught that the only way we could know God was through that collection of books called the Bible, putting it aside for a time can help us to experience more fully that God does not reside in a book, no matter how much wisdom it may hold. It is freeing.
That's the problem, I used to sometimes get anxious reading the Bible, actually the NT more than the OT. Especially Jesus' sayings about the fate of unbelievers, he sometimes seemed so uncompromising and harsh in his parables, like he was making it so hard for people to get into heaven. Also Revelation...first time I read it all the way through it felt like I was reading about a different God than the God of Love preaches gushed about. I have a tendency towards being negative and anxious about things, so I don't think it helps. Perhaps if I was never indoctrinated with certain beliefs I might be able to take a more positive message from the Bible. Indeed, not to say it's all doom and gloom, sometimes it is positive, but I just tend to let the bad stuff outweigh the good.
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Old 10-02-2013, 07:51 PM
 
Location: Melbourne, Australia
9,781 posts, read 16,288,926 times
Reputation: 2833
Quote:
Originally Posted by nateswift View Post
OUTstanding observation! I have a feeling a lot of people would miss what you are saying so I want to emphasize it strongly.

If the Old Testament is a collection of myths, legends, biased histories and amazing social commentary that reflects a growing perception on the nature of God within one ethnic group, is it less of a lesson than if it had been dictated by God with all its faults and contradictions? I think the former view is more inspiring.
If the New Testament is a collection of the ideas, perceptions and memories of the earliest Christians that was subject to some contradictory ideas and to some "creative editing" both before and after composition, but the message of love as a basis for relating with God and man is clear, does it matter that the book is not perfect?

One other point: did Jesus promise a book nto lead us into all truth or something else?
Yeah I think the emphasis on Biblical inerrancy is so important because they will if you can compromise on one thing you can compromise on anything. I think believing the basics is more important than whether or not you believe every single word in the 66 books that a group of men put together is true. I also think other 'Holy Books', which also written by men, might also shed some light on the nature of God.
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Old 10-02-2013, 07:53 PM
 
Location: Melbourne, Australia
9,781 posts, read 16,288,926 times
Reputation: 2833
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wardendresden View Post
I'm a realist when it comes to reading the scriptures. Even the most conservative textual theologians agree that there are literally THOUSANDS of errors existing between the 5700+ manuscripts of the New Testament alone. In fact, there are more errors than there are words in the New Testament.

So how does the Bible become the "Word of God?"

It is through the eyes of faith. It is through eyes that can see past the mistakes, past the scribal additions, past the sometimes embellished stories, past the dogma of churches and individuals each of whom proclaim to have the "true" message.

Was God able to accomplish His purpose through Abraham a man who lied about his wife being his sister, through Moses who killed a man and broke the first tablets of the ten commandments over a rock, through David who committed adultery and murdered the woman's husband to cover up his sin?

If you believe that God was able to do that, then you can also believe that God's purpose can be divined through reading the scriptures.

Everyone who reads the scriptures interprets them and in some way CHANGES the original meaning of the words by the authors---the authors who ALSO had a purpose in writing them. The mistake we all make is in thinking that God is trying to send exactly the same message to each person. The eyes can't be the ears, the arms don't serve the same purpose as the legs, smell doesn't replace taste. But all CAN work together for a unified body.

So it is with the body of Christ, His universal church. We just keep thinking that the arms ought to be able to reach the branches overhead, the eyes ought to "see" the sound the birds make, and if something smells bad it automatically tastes bad (not always so!).

So I recommend continue reading the scripture, begin a study of the historical times of Jesus, listen to no one who claims to have the one solution. Seek and you will find. Knock and it will be opened to you.

Blessings.
Refreshing perspective . Everyone interprets the Bible slightly differently, despite what they've been taught, but it doesn't change the essential principle contained therein: that God loves us and he wants to draw us back to Him. Although sometimes the Bible doesn't really seem to suggest that...it states it, but also says God only pre-destines some, that he has prepared some for destruction...Sometimes I think the God of modern Christianity is quite different to the one of the Bible, and I find it strange how more people often don't see the discrepancy. I actually think preachers in previous times were aware that God really isn't as merciful and forgiving (nor is his love unconditional) as is usually suggested...at least as portrayed in the Bible.
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Old 10-02-2013, 08:06 PM
 
Location: New England
32,314 posts, read 21,165,114 times
Reputation: 2293
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wardendresden View Post
I'm a realist when it comes to reading the scriptures. Even the most conservative textual theologians agree that there are literally THOUSANDS of errors existing between the 5700+ manuscripts of the New Testament alone. In fact, there are more errors than there are words in the New Testament.

So how does the Bible become the "Word of God?"

It is through the eyes of faith. It is through eyes that can see past the mistakes, past the scribal additions, past the sometimes embellished stories, past the dogma of churches and individuals each of whom proclaim to have the "true" message.

Was God able to accomplish His purpose through Abraham a man who lied about his wife being his sister, through Moses who killed a man and broke the first tablets of the ten commandments over a rock, through David who committed adultery and murdered the woman's husband to cover up his sin?

If you believe that God was able to do that, then you can also believe that God's purpose can be divined through reading the scriptures.

Everyone who reads the scriptures interprets them and in some way CHANGES the original meaning of the words by the authors---the authors who ALSO had a purpose in writing them. The mistake we all make is in thinking that God is trying to send exactly the same message to each person. The eyes can't be the ears, the arms don't serve the same purpose as the legs, smell doesn't replace taste. But all CAN work together for a unified body.

So it is with the body of Christ, His universal church. We just keep thinking that the arms ought to be able to reach the branches overhead, the eyes ought to "see" the sound the birds make, and if something smells bad it automatically tastes bad (not always so!).

So I recommend continue reading the scripture, begin a study of the historical times of Jesus, listen to no one who claims to have the one solution. Seek and you will find. Knock and it will be opened to you.

Blessings.
Another great post
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Old 10-02-2013, 08:22 PM
 
Location: Dallas TX
304 posts, read 247,827 times
Reputation: 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
I have explored this philosophically from an abstract perspective about what a "word" or "logos" actually is. It is a cognitive construct that has meaning and substance ONLY within a consciousness. The symbols that comprise it only attain meaning within a consciousness. Since our reality is established by the consciousness of God (universal field) and since our consciousness is a cellular component (resonant neural field) of God's consciousness . . . the significance of "logos" or the "word" as used in John becomes more salient, IMO. It is the meaning reflecting God's true consciousness or nature. Christ is that reflection . . . NOT the Bible or your lease agreement.
The word has meaning. The word has historical uses.

The word wasn't used only in such a fashion. I agree to describe Christ it was. But it would be the word used to discuss the library, the bible, the purchase receipt, etc...

Christ was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God. All that created was created through Him.

How did God create? He said, "let there be..." That is how Christ is the WORD. As the Word, I'd argue that He presented Himself as the burning bush, to Adam in the Garden, as the Angel of the Lord, as the voice at the Ark, and later, he was made manifest as Jesus who became the christ.
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Old 04-08-2014, 12:02 AM
 
1 posts, read 846 times
Reputation: 11
The Bible is the 'inspired word of God' given to men so that they might know Him and learn about the TRUTH.

"All scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness" (II Timothy 3:16)

"Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost." (II Peter 1:20-21)

Oh taste and see that the Lord is Good,...you can never know a taste of a food if you don't taste it. Same principle applies here...you will KNOW the TRUTH and the TRUTH will set you free if you allow JESUS or the Word of God from the Bible to work in you....how does it work,...you read the Bible, meditate on the precious holy words and live it. Then you'll experience God and know the TRUTH and you'll be set free.

May the Lord Jesus Christ open your eyes of understanding to know the TRUTH.
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Old 04-08-2014, 04:06 AM
 
Location: New England
32,314 posts, read 21,165,114 times
Reputation: 2293
Quote:
Originally Posted by dvitayaki View Post
The Bible is the 'inspired word of God' given to men so that they might know Him and learn about the TRUTH.

"All scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness" (II Timothy 3:16)

"Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost." (II Peter 1:20-21)

Oh taste and see that the Lord is Good,...you can never know a taste of a food if you don't taste it. Same principle applies here...you will KNOW the TRUTH and the TRUTH will set you free if you allow JESUS or the Word of God from the Bible to work in you....how does it work,...you read the Bible, meditate on the precious holy words and live it. Then you'll experience God and know the TRUTH and you'll be set free.

May the Lord Jesus Christ open your eyes of understanding to know the TRUTH.
I know many of you will shout blasphemy, but it is your approach to the bible that you have made God that is causing you defeat and failure, and keeping you enslaved in sin.

Your bible, is continually pointing you to direct your faith elsewhere. Awake to righteousness and sin not. Not wakening to righteousness is the root cause of all failure, for all you see is your sin in yourself and the bible pointing it out in you, thus bringing condemnation upon you and you live in this vicious circle of not being right with God.

If the ministry that brought condemnation was glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness

The letter kills, but the spirit gives life.
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