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Old 04-08-2014, 05:37 AM
 
1,382 posts, read 486,600 times
Reputation: 100

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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Postman View Post
Christians constantly emphasis that the Bible is the rock upon which faith in God, Jesus, salvation, heaven.etc is built on. Christians and Atheists have an 'all or nothing' approach to the Bible: either it's all true, or it's all bunk.

It's claimed that the Bible is the very Word of God, inspired by God. Of course there are tons of issues with it, but when considering the arguments why the Bible is divine, for me, it all hangs on prophecy. For instance, the website gotquestions.org gives the following reasons:

Is the Bible truly God's Word?

To be honest, none of these is that conclusive (let alone proof) except proven prophecy...even that's not totally conclusive, but it at least suggests there's something supernatural, that perhaps some divine intelligence is at work here. Things like archeological evidence - even if the Bible is historically accurate, that means nothing if those divine, supernatural events (God talking to Moses, parting of the Red Sea, Virgin Birth, Resurrection) did not take place. Internal/external evidences don't tell us anything about whether it's divine/inspired or not...nor does the 'unity' or the 'integrity of it's human authors' which is probably the weakest of the arguments, as well as the argument that many lives have been changed by it. Many lives have been changed by the Quran or Dale Carnegie's 'How to win friends and influence people' but that does not make Dale Carnegie God.

I'm a struggling Christian, and I honestly wish there were more solid reasons to believe that the Bible is God's word, but considering so much of it is implausible (Noah's ark, Jewish cosmology, anthropocentric God) or disturbing/depression (that most people are pre-destined to be condemned to eternal torment, which I don't believe the Bible teaches actually but that's what many believe it teaches) I feel I need more solid reasons to believe.

So can anyone help me out here? Provide me with rock solid evidence that the Bible has a supernatural author that cannot be easily explained away?
Dear postman,
Yeshua declared the O.T. as Scripture, which can not be broken (John 10:35).
John 10:35 NAS "If he called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken "

As for the N.T., it was compiled and canonized by the Roman church. The Roman church believes that the church is built on the "rock" of Peter". The Protestants, while wrong with regards to the rock the church is build on, which is the "Spirit of Revelation", which includes the testimony of Yeshua (Rev 19:10), but not the testimony of the leaven of the Pharisees, which would include the testimony of Paul.

Mt 16:16-18,"Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." 17 And Jesus said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. 18 "I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church ; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it. "
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Old 04-08-2014, 05:48 AM
 
9,760 posts, read 6,723,628 times
Reputation: 2484
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Postman View Post
Christians constantly emphasis that the Bible is the rock upon which faith in God, Jesus, salvation, heaven.etc is built on. Christians and Atheists have an 'all or nothing' approach to the Bible: either it's all true, or it's all bunk.

It's claimed that the Bible is the very Word of God, inspired by God. Of course there are tons of issues with it, but when considering the arguments why the Bible is divine, for me, it all hangs on prophecy. For instance, the website gotquestions.org gives the following reasons:

Is the Bible truly God's Word?

To be honest, none of these is that conclusive (let alone proof) except proven prophecy...even that's not totally conclusive, but it at least suggests there's something supernatural, that perhaps some divine intelligence is at work here. Things like archeological evidence - even if the Bible is historically accurate, that means nothing if those divine, supernatural events (God talking to Moses, parting of the Red Sea, Virgin Birth, Resurrection) did not take place. Internal/external evidences don't tell us anything about whether it's divine/inspired or not...nor does the 'unity' or the 'integrity of it's human authors' which is probably the weakest of the arguments, as well as the argument that many lives have been changed by it. Many lives have been changed by the Quran or Dale Carnegie's 'How to win friends and influence people' but that does not make Dale Carnegie God.

I'm a struggling Christian, and I honestly wish there were more solid reasons to believe that the Bible is God's word, but considering so much of it is implausible (Noah's ark, Jewish cosmology, anthropocentric God) or disturbing/depression (that most people are pre-destined to be condemned to eternal torment, which I don't believe the Bible teaches actually but that's what many believe it teaches) I feel I need more solid reasons to believe.

So can anyone help me out here? Provide me with rock solid evidence that the Bible has a supernatural author that cannot be easily explained away?
The book is just a spiritual guide. If you use it as the word of God you may end up as a Bibliolatrist of Bible worshiper which is borderline idololatry.

Otherwise, the book has great teachings. Thomas Jefferson took the bible and removed the magic supernatural stuff. It is called the Jefferson Bible and available in Amazon.com.
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Old 04-09-2014, 04:35 AM
 
39,033 posts, read 10,825,389 times
Reputation: 5082
How interesting to read this after the 'evolution poll' thread. and how similar is the take.

About 2 thirds accept that the Bible isn't reliable as fact, but it is reliable as a spiritual guide.

About half or more (I couldn't know whether the 'adaptation' vote implied rejection of "macro-evolution") accepted that evolution was true, but though that God had used it.

It seems that the divide is between insisting on Bible-literalism or believing in the religious message rather than in the book.
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Old 04-10-2014, 04:54 PM
 
Location: Near Orlando
225 posts, read 127,014 times
Reputation: 44
Quote:
=The Postman;31643555]Christians constantly emphasis that the Bible is the rock upon which faith in God, Jesus, salvation, heaven.etc is built on. Christians and Atheists have an 'all or nothing' approach to the Bible: either it's all true, or it's all bunk.

It's claimed that the Bible is the very Word of God, inspired by God. Of course there are tons of issues with it, but when considering the arguments why the Bible is divine, for me, it all hangs on prophecy. For instance, the website gotquestions.org gives the following reasons:

Is the Bible truly God's Word?

To be honest, none of these is that conclusive (let alone proof) except proven prophecy...even that's not totally conclusive, but it at least suggests there's something supernatural, that perhaps some divine intelligence is at work here. Things like archeological evidence - even if the Bible is historically accurate, that means nothing if those divine, supernatural events (God talking to Moses, parting of the Red Sea, Virgin Birth, Resurrection) did not take place. Internal/external evidences don't tell us anything about whether it's divine/inspired or not...nor does the 'unity' or the 'integrity of it's human authors' which is probably the weakest of the arguments, as well as the argument that many lives have been changed by it. Many lives have been changed by the Quran or Dale Carnegie's 'How to win friends and influence people' but that does not make Dale Carnegie God.

I'm a struggling Christian, and I honestly wish there were more solid reasons to believe that the Bible is God's word, but considering so much of it is implausible (Noah's ark, Jewish cosmology, anthropocentric God) or disturbing/depression (that most people are pre-destined to be condemned to eternal torment, which I don't believe the Bible teaches actually but that's what many believe it teaches) I feel I need more solid reasons to believe.

So can anyone help me out here? Provide me with rock solid evidence that the Bible has a supernatural author that cannot be easily explained away?
My dear friend in Christ,

2nd. Tim. 3: 16-17 and Mt. 4:4 expalin why the bible has lasted 2,000 years and is the most often read book in world history. THAT ALONE ought to give one an assurence of its import to God, and even more to all of us.

The Bible [a term BTW, not found in the bible], lie the Commandments, like the RCC, [also 2,000 years young] and the "birth parents of the bible"; as Catholics chose the books of the OT to be included and it was the early Catholics [Christians] who AUTHORED the entire New Testament. WHY? So that God's WORDS would be available to be shared and faith could be learned.

In line with this was Christ following His Own OT tradition of:
Only One True God:

Exodus 6:7 "And I will take you to myself for my people, I will be your God: and you shall know that I am the Lord your God who brought you out from the work prison of the Egyptians"

Only One set of Faith beliefs
Leviticus 18:4 "You shall do my judgments, and shall observe my precepts, and shall walk in them. I am the Lord your God."

And Only One Chosen people and both of these passages teach.

Christ too taught that He was the ONLY true God [meaning of couse the Blessied Trinity:
Mt. 3: 13-17 "Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to the Jordan, unto John, to be baptized by him. But John stayed him, saying: I ought to be baptized by thee, and comest thou to me? [15] And Jesus answering, said to him: Suffer it to be so now. For so it becometh us to fulfill all justice. Then he suffered him. And Jesus being baptized, forthwith came out of the water: [GOD THE SON]and lo, the heavens were opened to him: and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove [GOD THE HOLY SPIRIT] and coming upon him. And behold a voice from heaven, saying: This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased."
[GOD THE FATHER] AND Mt. 28:18-19 "And Jesus coming, spoke to them, saying: All power is given to me in heaven and in earth. Going therefore, teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. [20] Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world."

How else my dear friend could we know of such a profound and sublime teaching?


And Only One set of Faith beliefs [Mt. 28:17-19A ABOVE] and Eph. 4: 1-7

And ONLY One Church that Christ founded, guides, guards and protects:
John 17: 13-20

Mt. 16:18-19 &

John 10:16 “And other sheep I have, that are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice, and there shall be one fold and one shepherd”

Eph. 2:19-20 “So then you are no longer strangers and sojourners, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household [SINGULAR] of God, built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, in whom the whole structure is joined together and grows into a holy temple in the Lord; in whom you also are built into it for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.”

So have to get faith and HAVE Faith takes God's Gifts of Wisdom, Knowledge and RIGHT Understanding; ALL Gifts from God; bot also facitilated by GODS WORDS; His Bible

John 1: 1-5 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him: and without him was made nothing that was made. In him was life, and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it"

I left a few references for YOU to look up.

God Bless you my friend,
PJM
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Old 04-12-2014, 02:27 AM
 
Location: NY
774 posts, read 736,963 times
Reputation: 576
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xian Catalyst View Post

The Bible as the sole authority, says point blank it's not the sole authority.
Where in The Bible is that said?
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Old 04-15-2014, 08:49 AM
 
Location: Near Orlando
225 posts, read 127,014 times
Reputation: 44
Quote:
=The Postman;31643555]Christians constantly emphasis that the Bible is the rock upon which faith in God, Jesus, salvation, heaven.etc is built on. Christians and Atheists have an 'all or nothing' approach to the Bible: either it's all true, or it's all bunk.

It's claimed that the Bible is the very Word of God, inspired by God. Of course there are tons of issues with it, but when considering the arguments why the Bible is divine, for me, it all hangs on prophecy. For instance, the website gotquestions.org gives the following reasons:

Is the Bible truly God's Word?

To be honest, none of these is that conclusive (let alone proof) except proven prophecy...even that's not totally conclusive, but it at least suggests there's something supernatural, that perhaps some divine intelligence is at work here. Things like archeological evidence - even if the Bible is historically accurate, that means nothing if those divine, supernatural events (God talking to Moses, parting of the Red Sea, Virgin Birth, Resurrection) did not take place. Internal/external evidences don't tell us anything about whether it's divine/inspired or not...nor does the 'unity' or the 'integrity of it's human authors' which is probably the weakest of the arguments, as well as the argument that many lives have been changed by it. Many lives have been changed by the Quran or Dale Carnegie's 'How to win friends and influence people' but that does not make Dale Carnegie God.

I'm a struggling Christian, and I honestly wish there were more solid reasons to believe that the Bible is God's word, but considering so much of it is implausible (Noah's ark, Jewish cosmology, anthropocentric God) or disturbing/depression (that most people are pre-destined to be condemned to eternal torment, which I don't believe the Bible teaches actually but that's what many believe it teaches) I feel I need more solid reasons to believe.

So can anyone help me out here? Provide me with rock solid evidence that the Bible has a supernatural author that cannot be easily explained away?
I'll TRY to help you.

Prophesises by themselves ought to make evident that the Bible is an inspired work.

A second evidence is that it is the most read book in the history of the world. And has existed for some 1,900 years [1,600] after the Bibles Canon was set]

Third: Without out the Bible it is highly questionable that Catholicism would have lasted its nearly 2,000 years. With out True Faith Guide lines, this alone requires a miracle of Gods intervention.

Mt. 10: 1-8
READ Mt. 16: 15-19
John 17:13-22
Mk. 16:14-15
& Mt. 28:26-20

Each gives testiamony that 1. There is but One TRUE God; Faith and Church 2. That this One God; Faith and Church remains today's CC 3. That God guides, protects and LEADS the CC.

I CAN understand why a non-catholic Christian MIGHT have a problem with the bible where it is with amazing regularty misquoted, not rightly understood and used as a higly selectivech; resulting in THOUSANDS of denominations and sects.

2 Peter 2: 1-3 “But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction. And many will follow their licentiousness, and because of them the way of truth will be reviled. And in their greed they will exploit you with false words; from of old their condemnation has not been idle, and their destruction has not been asleep.

2nd. Peter 3: 14-17 “Therefore, beloved, since you wait for these, be zealous to be found by him without spot or blemish, and at peace. And count the forbearance of our Lord as salvation. So also our beloved brother Paul wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, speaking of this as he does in all his letters. There are some things in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures. You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, beware lest you be carried away with the error of lawless men and lose your own stability

2nd. Peter 1: 16-21 “You will do well to pay attention to this as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts. First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation, because no prophecy ever came by the impulse of man, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.”

John 5: 37 “And the Father who sent me has himself borne witness to me. His voice you have never heard, his form you have never seen; and you do not have his word abiding in you, for you do not believe him whom he has sent. You search the scriptures, because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness to me; yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life [Speaking of accepting the entire WORD of GOD]. I do not receive glory from men .[Meaning disobedience is rampant!] But I know that you have not the love of God within you. I have come in my Father's name, and you do not receive me” [Obey Me!]

Eph.3: 9 to 12 “And to make all men see what is the plan of the mystery hidden for ages in God who created all things; that through the church [SINGULAR: meaning THE CATHOLIC Church] the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known to the principalities and powers in the heavenly places. This was according to the eternal purpose which he has realized in Christ Jesus our Lord, in whom we have boldness and confidence of access through our faith in him”

Mt. 7: 21-23 "Not every one who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?' And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you evildoers.”

2nd. Cor. 9: 13 “Under the test of this service, you will glorify God by your obedience in acknowledging the gospel of Christ,”

2 Tim. 4: 1-4 ”I charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus who is to judge the living and the dead, and by his appearing and his kingdom: preach the word, be urgent in season and out of season, convince, rebuke, and exhort, be unfailing in patience and in teaching. For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own likings, and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander into myths.”

John 10:16 “And other sheep I have, that are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice, and there shall be one fold and one shepherd”

Eph. 2:19-20 “So then you are no longer strangers and sojourners, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, in whom the whole structure is joined together and grows into a holy temple in the Lord; in whom you also are built into it for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.”

1st. Tim. 4:14-16 “Neglect not the grace that is in thee, which was given thee by prophecy, with imposition of the hands of the priesthood. Meditate upon these things, be wholly in these things: that thy profiting may be manifest to all Take heed to thyself and to doctrine: be earnest in them. For in doing this thou shall both save thyself and them that hear thee.”

Forth: God simply does not permit challanges to His One God; Faith and Church with impuinity. He WITHOLDS right understanding from ALL those who oppose His Divine Will. by forming there own man-made faith and churches. And this is also imposed on all who particiapte in these recently founded "new faiths". UNTIL they TURN back to God and repent and ask God to enlighten them.

Hope you find this helpful?

PRAY MUCH!

IamACatholic
Patrick
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Old 04-15-2014, 10:46 AM
 
11,233 posts, read 11,256,867 times
Reputation: 3445
The Bible was written as if Stone-Age people were trying to explain the mysteries of the universe and their existence with the technology they had at that time--which was zilch, obviously. It's only logical that the Old Testament would come out as a collection of myths, fables, and allegories identical to other religions of that time.

With today's technology and understanding of biology, astronomy, virology, histology, archaeology, etc we get a clearer picture of just how wrong nearly everything in it is. It's not the fault of the people who wrote it. They were working with what they had. So to ascribe all these supernatural "inerrant, perfect word of God' attributes to it is so out in left field it's laughable. Christianity has to get into the 21st century if it has any hope of surviving. People like William Lane Craig and Mack Slick and others of their ilk who try to maintain the status quo are fighting a losing battle with their insistence on staying faithful to fundamentalism.

Last edited by thrillobyte; 04-15-2014 at 11:02 AM.. Reason: corrections
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Old 04-15-2014, 10:51 AM
Status: "Smacking fundies." (set 23 hours ago)
 
Location: Ontario, Canada
25,775 posts, read 13,404,281 times
Reputation: 11668
Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
The Bible was written as if Stone-Age people were trying to explain the mysteries of the universe and their existence with the technology they had at that time--which was zilch, obviously. It's only logical that the Old Testament would come out as a collection of myths, fables, and allegories identical to other religions of that time.

With today's technology and understanding of biology, astronomy, virology, histology, archaeology, etc we get a clearer picture of just how wrong nearly everything in it is. It's not the fault of the people who wrote it. They were working with what they had. So to ascribe all these supernatural "inerrant, perfect word of God' attributes to it is so out in left field it's laughable. Christianity has to get into the 21st century if it has any hope of surviving. People like William Lane Craig and Mack Slick and others of their ilk are fighting a losing battle with their insistence of staying faithful to fundamentalism.
Truth.
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Old 04-15-2014, 11:01 AM
 
11,233 posts, read 11,256,867 times
Reputation: 3445
Quote:
Originally Posted by TroutDude View Post
Truth.
Thanks, Trout. Tried to rep you but, as usual, the system is malfunctioning.
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Old 04-15-2014, 11:21 AM
 
40,043 posts, read 26,725,598 times
Reputation: 6048
Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
The Bible was written as if Stone-Age people were trying to explain the mysteries of the universe and their existence with the technology they had at that time--which was zilch, obviously. It's only logical that the Old Testament would come out as a collection of myths, fables, and allegories identical to other religions of that time.

With today's technology and understanding of biology, astronomy, virology, histology, archaeology, etc we get a clearer picture of just how wrong nearly everything in it is. It's not the fault of the people who wrote it. They were working with what they had. So to ascribe all these supernatural "inerrant, perfect word of God' attributes to it is so out in left field it's laughable. Christianity has to get into the 21st century if it has any hope of surviving. People like William Lane Craig and Mack Slick and others of their ilk who try to maintain the status quo are fighting a losing battle with their insistence on staying faithful to fundamentalism.
Amen!
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