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Old 04-16-2014, 09:04 AM
 
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Originally Posted by The Postman View Post
Christians constantly emphasis that the Bible is the rock upon which faith in God, Jesus, salvation, heaven.etc is built on. Christians and Atheists have an 'all or nothing' approach to the Bible: either it's all true, or it's all bunk.

It's claimed that the Bible is the very Word of God, inspired by God. Of course there are tons of issues with it, but when considering the arguments why the Bible is divine, for me, it all hangs on prophecy. For instance, the website gotquestions.org gives the following reasons:

Is the Bible truly God's Word?

To be honest, none of these is that conclusive (let alone proof) except proven prophecy...even that's not totally conclusive, but it at least suggests there's something supernatural, that perhaps some divine intelligence is at work here. Things like archeological evidence - even if the Bible is historically accurate, that means nothing if those divine, supernatural events (God talking to Moses, parting of the Red Sea, Virgin Birth, Resurrection) did not take place. Internal/external evidences don't tell us anything about whether it's divine/inspired or not...nor does the 'unity' or the 'integrity of it's human authors' which is probably the weakest of the arguments, as well as the argument that many lives have been changed by it. Many lives have been changed by the Quran or Dale Carnegie's 'How to win friends and influence people' but that does not make Dale Carnegie God.

I'm a struggling Christian, and I honestly wish there were more solid reasons to believe that the Bible is God's word, but considering so much of it is implausible (Noah's ark, Jewish cosmology, anthropocentric God) or disturbing/depression (that most people are pre-destined to be condemned to eternal torment, which I don't believe the Bible teaches actually but that's what many believe it teaches) I feel I need more solid reasons to believe.

So can anyone help me out here? Provide me with rock solid evidence that the Bible has a supernatural author that cannot be easily explained away?
Prophecy that has come to past should be proof enough.

Now as to 'rock solid evidence' I can give you my experiences with Scripture, but then you'd have to believe I'm being truthful. BTW, I will share them if you think it would help you.

Now as to believing for yourself the Scriptures are what the claim to be; here's some passages about the Scriptures:

[1] law, first 5 book of OT

[2] testimony, The Prophets
Isa 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

Isa 8:16 Bind up the testimony, seal the law among my disciples.

Ps 19:7 The law of the Yahweh is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of Yahweh is sure, making wise the simple.
From Psa. 119:
2 Blessed are they that keep his testimonies, and that seek him with the whole heart.

9 Wherewithal shall a young man cleanse his way? by taking heed thereto according to thy word.

11 ¶ Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee.

14 I have rejoiced in the way of thy testimonies, as much as in all riches.

16 I will delight myself in thy statutes: I will not forget thy word.

17 ¶ Deal bountifully with thy servant, that I may live, and keep thy word.

18 ¶ Open thou mine eyes, that I may behold wondrous things out of thy law.

28 ¶ My soul melteth for heaviness: strengthen thou me according unto thy word.

31 I have stuck unto thy testimonies: O Yahweh, put me not to shame.

41 ¶ Let thy mercies come also unto me, O Yahweh, even thy salvation, according to thy word

42 So shall I have wherewith to answer him that reproacheth me: for I trust in thy word.

49 ¶ Remember the word unto thy servant, upon which thou hast caused me to hope

57 Thou art my portion, O Yahweh: I have said that I would keep thy words.

67 ¶ Before I was afflicted I went astray: but now have I kept thy word.

81 My soul fainteth for thy salvation: but I hope in thy word

103 ¶ How sweet are thy words unto my taste! yea, sweeter than honey to my mouth!
IMO I believe Psa. 119, all by itself, proves the Scriptures are the Word of God.

Last edited by mshipmate; 04-16-2014 at 09:12 AM..
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Old 04-16-2014, 09:25 AM
 
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I forgot this one. And IMHO, this one should make believers stop and take pause...
Ho 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.
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Old 04-20-2014, 02:09 PM
 
Location: Near Orlando
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Quote:
=mshipmate;34390644]I forgot this one. And IMHO, this one should make believers stop and take pause...
Ho 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.
I too glossed over "this one".

But tell me my friend, what is its relivance with the multitude of differing faith beliefs in the "Bible Church community?"

Continued Blessings,

IamACatholic

Patrick
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Old 04-20-2014, 03:23 PM
 
1,534 posts, read 1,646,428 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IamACatholic View Post
I too glossed over "this one".

But tell me my friend, what is its relivance with the multitude of differing faith beliefs in the "Bible Church community?"

Continued Blessings,

IamACatholic

Patrick
Who were God's ppl back when Hosea wrote this verse? They were the Hebrews/Israelites. What was their sin? They forgot God's laws and as a result they lost the knowledge of their Creator. What happens when ppl do have knowledge of their Creator? They have life; eternal life.

Who are God's ppl today? See this is where the claim of the RCC is that they alone are the true church, they alone are saved, and that their "Church" is the only one started when Peter made his confession. And their claim this makes Peter the first pope and so on and so on, creates a big problem. Why is it a problem? [1]Because when Christ said I will built, the word build has the meaning of 'building up' or "adding to;" not starting something 'new.' [2] And So the problem is also the RCC is leaving out all the righteous ppl from the OT.

Think of it this way. God has always had a ppl from righteous Abel up to believers of today. And were these 'first' ppl Catholic? We all know the answer is, no. Now for those of you who think I just made this up, let's look at what the Scripture says about this same 'subject.'
Ac 7:38 This is he, [Moses] that was in the * church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:
* church. See the problem comes in when ppl misuse the word 'church.' It's ekklesia and means "Catholics," right? No, it means the called out ones' So tell me this, did Christ/God just first began to 'call ppl' when Peter made his confusion, and then ONLY Catholic ppl? Or did God call ppl right from the beginning and continues to do so today?

So back to my question. Who are God's ppl today? They are *believers, call out ones, who come from all walks of life, all races, all countries of the world. Some have been believers most of their life, some will be called out of various 'religions' and some will be called out as unbelievers, all to be grafted into the olive tree [Israel] who's root is Christ.

So I repeat. God has always had a ppl and when these ppl, these believers, turn away from God's law/commandments they are 'destroyed' because they lose their connection with their Creator and lose the blessings of God, and possibly eternal life.

*believers, The Scriptures call them "Israel" whether born or adopted/grafted in. Now I know this will offend some but God is called, The God of Israel. Peter stood up and addressed, Catholics? No, "ye men of Israel," etc. etc.

Last edited by mshipmate; 04-20-2014 at 03:45 PM.. Reason: corretions
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Old 04-20-2014, 03:47 PM
 
Location: Diocese of Raleigh
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Originally Posted by mshipmate View Post
Who are God's ppl today? See this is where the claim of the RCC is that they alone are the true church,
True. But there is a really long explanation required...normative necessities, implicit baptism of desire...it's complicated.

Quote:
they alone are saved,
Yes and no based on really precise understanding of who "they" are. But for simplicity, this is a false understanding of what Catholics believe.

Quote:
and that their "Church" is the only one started when Peter made his confession.
Close. The Catholic Church is the only one Jesus promised to build upon Peter who was named "Rock" after his confession.

Quote:
And their claim this makes Peter the first pope and so on and so on, creates a big problem. Why is it a problem? Because when Christ said I will built, the word build has the meaning of 'building up' or "adding to;" not starting something 'new.' So the problem is the RCC is leaving out all the righteous ppl from the OT.
Not exactly. Jesus did promise to build, not "add to", but he also descended to the place of the dead and preached to those who had died prior to his resurrection. Thus, they became members of His body, also, and the body of Christ has been known as the Catholic Church since the end of the first century.
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Old 04-20-2014, 03:51 PM
 
Location: Diocese of Raleigh
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Originally Posted by mshipmate View Post
See the problem comes in when ppl misuse the word 'church.' It's ekklesia and means "Catholics," right? No, it means the called out ones' So tell me this, did Christ/God just first began to 'call ppl' when Peter made his confusion, and then ONLY Catholic ppl?
No, the problem comes in when ppl don't know history and have been misinformed by their pastors who don't know or don't tell them the truth.

The early Church - the Church founded by Christ as promised in Matthew 16:18 - was that which was originally known as “the Way” (cf. Acts 24:14). Later, those individuals who followed Christ began to be called “Christians” beginning at Antioch (cf. Acts 11:26). As early as 107 A.D., those same individuals referred to themselves collectively as the “Catholic Church”. In a letter to the Church of Smyrna, Ignatius of Antioch wrote:
You must all follow the bishop as Jesus Christ follows the Father, and the presbytery (priest) as you would the Apostles. Let no one do anything of concern to the Church without the bishop. Wherever the bishop appears, let the people be there; just as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church (Letter to the Smyrnaeans, A.D. 107, [8,1])
Notice that Ignatius does not take pains to introduce the term "Catholic Church"; instead he uses it in a manner suggesting that the name was already in use and familiar to his audience. This further suggests that the name, Catholic Church, had to have been coined much earlier in order to have achieved wide circulation by the time of this writing. In other words, the Christian assembly was calling itself the Catholic Church during the lifetime of the last Apostle, John, who died near the end of the first century. John, the beloved disciple, may have thought of himself as a member of the Catholic Church!

The Catholic Church began with Peter and the Apostles and continued without interruption or cessation through their disciples (Ignatius, Irenaeus, Polycarp, Clement, Justin Martyr, etc.) down to the present day. As a side note, it appears that the believers in Antioch may have coined both terms still in use today: “Christian” and “Catholic Church” – terms they used to describe the one body of believers in Christ.
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Old 04-23-2014, 04:16 PM
 
Location: Near Orlando
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=mshipmate;34448017]Who were God's ppl back when Hosea wrote this verse? They were the Hebrews/Israelites. What was their sin? They forgot God's laws and as a result they lost the knowledge of their Creator. What happens when ppl do have knowledge of their Creator? They have life; eternal life.

Who are God's ppl today? See this is where the claim of the RCC is that they alone are the true church, they alone are saved, and that their "Church" is the only one started when Peter made his confession. And their claim this makes Peter the first pope and so on and so on, creates a big problem. Why is it a problem? [1]Because when Christ said I will built, the word build has the meaning of 'building up' or "adding to;" not starting something 'new.' [2] And So the problem is also the RCC is leaving out all the righteous ppl from the OT.

Think of it this way. God has always had a ppl from righteous Abel up to believers of today. And were these 'first' ppl Catholic? We all know the answer is, no. Now for those of you who think I just made this up, let's look at what the Scripture says about this same 'subject.'
Ac 7:38 This is he, [Moses] that was in the * church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:
* church. See the problem comes in when ppl misuse the word 'church.' It's ekklesia and means "Catholics," right? No, it means the called out ones' So tell me this, did Christ/God just first began to 'call ppl' when Peter made his confusion, and then ONLY Catholic ppl? Or did God call ppl right from the beginning and continues to do so today?

So back to my question. Who are God's ppl today? They are *believers, call out ones, who come from all walks of life, all races, all countries of the world. Some have been believers most of their life, some will be called out of various 'religions' and some will be called out as unbelievers, all to be grafted into the olive tree [Israel] who's root is Christ.

So I repeat. God has always had a ppl and when these ppl, these believers, turn away from God's law/commandments they are 'destroyed' because they lose their connection with their Creator and lose the blessings of God, and possibly eternal life.

*believers, The Scriptures call them "Israel" whether born or adopted/grafted in. Now I know this will offend some but God is called, The God of Israel. Peter stood up and addressed, Catholics? No, "ye men of Israel," etc. etc.
A reply with evidence:

Quote:
Mshipmate
Christian FORUM: Why is the Bible Gods Word

Who were God's ppl back when Hosea wrote this verse? They were the Hebrews/Israelites. What was their sin? They forgot God's laws and as a result they lost the knowledge of their Creator. What happens when ppl do have knowledge of their Creator? They have life; eternal life.
Thanks for your reply.

Sorry to be late in responding; Tuesday I was out of town and today we helped our Son move.

I must confess that at 69 years young, I have not the faintest idea what “ppl” means. HUGE SMILE HERE. But in its context, I’ll assume it has to do with who God’s chosen people were [and are.]

I’d like to begin our conversation with a bible quote and a definition, to get us off on a firm and solid footing.

Malachi 3:6 “For I am the Lord, and I change not”

James 1:17 “Every best gift, and every perfect gift, is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no change, nor shadow of alteration”

Have you my friend ever come across the “One Infallible rule for right Understanding of the Bible?” Please permit me to share it here. [caps for emphasis NOT shouting]

“Never-ever
Can, May or DOES
One culled verse, passage or teaching
Have the power and authority
To:
Make void, invalidate or override
Another
Verse, passage or teaching

WERE THIS EVEN THE SLIGHEST POSSIBILITY [ITS NOT!] IT WOULD RENDER THE ENTIRE BIBLE AS WORTHLESS AND USELESS TO TEACH OR SHARE ONES FAITH.

Quote:
Who are God's ppl today? See this is where the claim of the RCC is that they alone are the true church, [[1] TRUE] they alone are saved, [2] FALSE] and that their "Church" is the only one started when Peter made his confession. And their claim this makes Peter the first pope and so on and so on, [TRUE] creates a big problem. [3]VERY TRUE] Why is it a problem? [1]Because when Christ said I will built, the word build has the meaning of 'building up' or "adding to;" not starting something 'new.' [4] And So the problem is also the RCC is leaving out all the righteous ppl from the OT. [4][WRONG, more than FALSE]

I have numbered them so that each can be discussed individually; and I’m going to take a minimalist approach to try to keep this as brief as possible. But please understand, I am willing to enter an in-depth discussion, if you choose to do so.


[1] I posted above a Teaching from both the Old and the New Testament that makes clear one of God’s infallible attributes. God BECAUSE He IS God, can’t change who and what He IS. He can change His mind; BUT not His Judgments. What is right is always RIGHT.

So in summary; God of the Old Testament [Yahweh] is the same identical God as God [Christ] in the New Testament. We therefore ought not be surprised to discover that what Saint Augustine had to say about the bible, has great relevance to our current topic.

{QUOTE]The New Testament is hidden in the Old Testament; and the Old Testament is revealed in the New Testament.”
So the first point I’d like to share is the “number ONE,” and its significance to our first point. “ppl” [Chosen people].

Lev. 26: 12-15 “I will walk among you, and will be your God, and you shall be my people. I am the Lord your God: who have brought you out of the land of the Egyptians, that you should not serve them, and who have broken the chains of your necks, that you might go upright. But if you will not hear me, nor do all my commandments, If you despise my laws, and contemn my judgments so as not to do those things which are appointed by me, and to make void my covenant”

While there is numerous evidence of God’s free choice of Just ONE GOD; Just One set of Faith beliefs [termed Commandments, laws, judgments and precepts… Gen. 26: 5] and as you seem to indicate; Just ONE chosen people; the above passage serves as verification of these Godly choices.

So one ought not be surprised that Christ followed His Own OT tradition; and followed suit with ONLY One God, One set of faith believes and Only One Church.

It is historical fact that today’s RCC was the ONLY “church” to exist anywhere in the entire world for the first THOUSAND years of Christian existence [the Great Easter Schism around 1054 AD].

Add to this fact anther FACT, that exegetes [bible experts] agree that the bible was completely authored by the end of the First Century or very early Second Century; which supports the following statements as provable FACTS.
1. Christ Himself coined the term “”MY” church [Singular]” [Mt. 16:15-19] to signify that he WAS founding a new religion [Just One]; with a NEW [ONE] set of faith beliefs, and under One God [Triune], and under a new single structure of authority.

Mt. 16: 18-19 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon [You Peter]this rock I will build my church, [Singular& implies just One set of faith-beliefs]and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give to thee [ALL OF] the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven. [As a FYI: the terms to “bind” and “to loose” here have so highly significant meanings to our current topic of “ONLY-ONE.” The First meaning was at that time and place a passing of God’s Own authority [if in doubt please read Mt. 10: 1-8; John 17: 18 & John 20:21] to Peter and through Peter to the other apostles was Christ intent. I have an extensive document on the meaning of the Key’s I can share if you’d care to read it.

Major cites at that time and area were, as was and IS, Jerusalem, “walled in” with actual gates, doors, locks and keys. Prior to Rome’s capture, these cites normally had individual kings. These kings would commonly appoint a “Prime Minister” who was empowered to RUN the city on a day to day basis, the power to make and void laws, and was answerable ONLY and directly to that king, andtThus freeing up the king to do “king stuff.” This PM actually did have ALL the KEYS to the “Kingdom.”

This was such a common occurrence that the position and decisions of the PM were enforceable in Jewish Courts of Law. And this is the Precise role that Christ [THE KING] envisioned and was appointing Peter [The Prime Minister]. This was such a common understanding that nowhere in the bible or in secular history do we find a debate or a challenge to what Christ Himself had Ordained, meant and Decreed from the other apostles.

John 10:16 “And other sheep I have, that are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice, and there shall be one fold and one shepherd”

Eph. 2:19-20 “So then you are no longer strangers and sojourners, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, in whom the whole structure is joined together and grows into a holy temple in the Lord; in whom you also are built into it for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.”

[Douay Bible which predates the King James by about 50 YEARS] Acts 20:28 “Take heed to yourselves, and to the whole flock, wherein the Holy Ghost hath placed you bishops, to rule the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood”

1st. Tim. 4:14-16 “Neglect not the grace that is in thee, which was given thee by prophecy, with imposition of the hands of the priesthood. Meditate upon these things, be wholly in these things: that thy profiting may be manifest to all Take heed to thyself and to doctrine: be earnest in them. For in doing this thou shall both save thyself and them that hear thee.”

Eph. 4: 1-7 “I therefore, a prisoner in the Lord, beseech you that you walk worthy of the [ONE] vocation in which you are called, with all humility and mildness, with patience, supporting one another in charity. Careful to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. One body [MEANS ONLY ONE CHURCH] and one Spirit; as you are called in one hope of your calling. One Lord, one faith,[ONLY ONE SET OF FAITH BELIEFS FOLLOWING OT tradition] one baptism. One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in us all. But to every one of us is given grace, according to the measure of the giving of Christ [Which explains why some have a difficult time understanding and therefore accepting these truths.]
2. Next we will point out that the bible itself was “birthed” by the Catholic Church. It was the very early[Catholic]church Fathers who choose the OT books to be included, and it was men who would later [but not much later] be known as Catholics who AUTHORED the entire New Testament, being Inspired by God to do so. 2nd. Tim. 3:16-17.

At First Christ Newly Founded religion was termed “The Way”, Here’s Haydock’s Commentary on this passage: Ver. 14. The Father, and my God. In the Greek, the Lord of our fathers. (Witham) --- According to the way. The Protestant version has sect for way; but in this, as well as in many other points, the original is not attended to, in which we read kata ten odon, as in our translation”; then in in Acts 11:26 “and when he had found him, he brought him to Antioch. For a whole year they met with the church,[Singular] and taught a large company of people; and in Antioch the disciples were for the first time called Christian” And not much later the term “catholic” was first introduced and applied.

CATHOLIC. Its original meaning of "general" or "universal" has taken on a variety of applications in the course of Christian history. First used by St. Ignatius of Antioch (A.D. 35-107) (Letter to the Smyrneans, 8, 2), it is now mainly used in five recognized senses: 1. the Catholic Church as distinct from Christian ecclesiastical bodies that do not recognize the papal primacy; 2. the Catholic faith as the belief of the universal body of the faithful, namely that which is believed "everywhere, always, and by all" (Vincentian Canon); 3. orthodoxy as distinguished from what is heretical or schismatical; 4. the undivided Church before the Eastern Schism of 1054; thereafter the Eastern Church has called itself orthodox, in contrast with those Christian bodies which did not accept the definitions of Ephesus and Chalcedon on the divinity of Christ.

WHENEVER THE BIBLE SPEAKS OF "THE CHURCH" OR REFERENCES "THE CHURCHES"; the bible is referencing directly and specifically, today’s Catholic Church.

It MUST in an absolute sense be today’s Catholic Church. …WHY?
Because there was NO-OTHER churches in existence. Pagan Temples: plenty; Jewish Synagogues: some. Church’s only “the Way” , which soon changed to the new term of “Christian” [about 80 AD, and about 50 years after Christ death and resurrection], and then AROUND 100 AD in Antioch the term “Catholic Church” was first used.

The Moral, Theological and very logical question to be asked seems to me to be:

How [or “if”] One True God [Triune] CAN [is capable of] holding more than ONLY ONE set of Faith beliefs on ANY long defied; precise issue? And the answer has to be; NO!; Not even God [Because He MUST REMAIN GOOD] can hold not only differing; but very often even contradicting positions on the same defined issues. Where my friend does the bible teach otherwise?

3. So What Christ did; what Christ intended and put into effect followed His Own OT tradition of Just One God; with Just One set of acceptable Beliefs and now, One Church instead of just One CHOSEN PEOPLE. God does not change

4. It is beyond the pale of logic that Christ could, would or did wait some 1,200 + years for Henry, Luther, Calvin, Wycliffe, Jones, Smith or anyone else to make His Single set of Faith beliefs known. It is historical and biblical fact that the ONLY Church and Faith Founded by Christ; desired by Chrits, and Protected and guided by Christ is todays Catholic Church. END OF POINT #1.

[2]
Quote:
“They alone are saved” … “FALSE “
From the current catechism of the RCC

780 “The Church in this world is the sacrament of salvation, the sign and the instrument of the communion of God and men.” This MEANS the Normal, not “the ONLY”.

846 “How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.”


847 “This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation”


1260 "Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery." Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity.”

End of # 2

[3]
Quote:
and that their "Church" is the only one started when Peter made his confession. And their claim this makes Peter the first pope and so on and so on
“TRUE”

My dear friend, your lack of right understanding is a result of holding positions that oppose God’s Own Singular truth. This need NOT be a permanent condition. Turn back to God with humility and a Desire to be shown His truth, and God WILL hear your plea.

It is not simply “the Church” that holds this position; but God Himself. And it is provable both historically and biblically.


Once again I remind you:
Malachi 3:6 “For I am the Lord, and I change not”

James 1:17 “Every best gift, and every perfect gift, is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no change, nor shadow of alteration”

With complete continuity, without exception, God [Yahweh] from the beginning of recorded history of the Hebrew Nation [the Jewish people]; God saw fit to choose one man to Lead His chosen People.

From Noe, to Abram, to Moses, to the Judges, to the Kings like David and Solomon, to the Prophets like Isaiah, and John the Baptist [the last OT Prophet], who led to Christ, who then choose Peter, to be the Leader of His New Founded Church [People]. Because I spent much time explaining One God; One Church and only One set of Faith beliefs. I’ll TRY to be more brief here. But know there is much additional evidence I can share, including “50 Bible First” for Peter, if you’d care to see it? The info I share now is directly on this topic.

One does not find the word ”Pope” in the bible. Then again the term “bible” is also NOT found in the Bible either, so the term is a moot point. Logically, because what Christ intended was totally NEW, the terms were changed in the course of time, for man’s benefit.

[RSV bible] Heb. 8: 8 & 13 “For he finds fault with them when he says: "The days will come, says the Lord, when I will establish a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah; & In speaking of a new covenant he treats the first as obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away” This does mean made void; only “superseded.”

Proofs of Peters Primacy
Douay Bible: Mt. 10: 1-8 “And having called his twelve disciples [Apostles] together, he gave them power over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of diseases, and all manner of infirmities. And the names of the twelve apostles are these: The first, Simon who is called Peter, [Even here Matthew affirms Christ choice of Peter to lLEAD] and Andrew his brother, James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother, Philip and Bartholomew, Thomas and Matthew the publican, and James the son of Alpheus, and Thaddeus, Simon the Cananean, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed him. These twelve Jesus sent: commanding them, saying: Go ye not into the way of the Gentiles, and into the city of the Samaritans enter ye not. But go ye rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. And going, preach, saying: The kingdom of heaven is at hand. Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse the lepers, cast out devils: freely have you received, freely give.”

Mt. 16: 18-19 “ And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon [YOU PETER] this rock I will build my church,[Singular] and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. A PROMISE THAT THIS “CHURCH” WOULD LAST FOREVER AND NOT BE DEFEATED BY SATAN] And I will give to thee [ALL OF] the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven”

Eph. 2:19-20 “So then you are no longer strangers and sojourners, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, [Singular] built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, in whom the whole structure is joined together and grows into a holy temple [Singular] in the Lord; in whom you also are built into it for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.”

John 17:13-22 “And now I come to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they may have my joy filled in themselves. I have given them thy word, and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world…. [15] I pray not that thou shouldst take them out of the world, but that thou shouldst keep them from evil. .. As thou hast sent me into the world, I also have sent them into the world. And for them do I sanctify myself, that they also may be sanctified in truth. And not for them only do I pray, but for them also who through their word shall believe in me; That they all may be one, as thou, Father, in me, and I in thee; that they also may be one in us; that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou hast given me, I have given to them; that they may be one, as we also are one. This means exactly what it says: Christ here is once again passing His own Power and Authority to the Apostles through Peter.
FROM THE FINAL CHAPER OF JOHNS GOSPEL … John 20: 16-17 “He saith to him again: Simon, son of John, lovest thou me? He saith to him: Yea, Lord, thou knowest that I love thee. He saith to him: Feed my lambs. He said to him the third time: Simon, son of John, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved, because he had said to him the third time: Lovest thou me? And he said to him: Lord, thou knowest all things: thou knowest that I love thee. He said to him: Feed my sheep.”
Acts20: 28-30 “Take heed to yourselves, and to the whole flock, wherein the Holy Ghost hath placed you bishops, to rule the church of God, [Singular] which he hath purchased with his own blood. I know that, after my departure, ravening wolves will enter in among you, not sparing the flock. And of your own selves shall arise men speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.”

1 Peter 5: 2 “Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking care of it, not by constraint, but willingly, according to God: not for filthy lucre' s sake, but voluntarily”

Luke 22:32 Peter alone among the apostles is exhorted by Jesus to "strengthen your brethren"
And the Lord said: Simon, Simon, behold Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat. But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and thou, being once converted, confirm thy brethren. “

Now just a bit on the Origin of “Succession”
Let’s go back to the top of this section; Mt. 10: 1-8 and look closely at what Christ HAD COMMNADED them specifically to Do and NOT to do.

Mt. 10: 7-8 “Go ye not into the way of the Gentiles, and into the city of the Samaritans enter ye not. But go ye rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.” [ONLY!]

And then at the last moment [but NO DOUBT, long planed], Christ changes this command, changes this MANDATE

Mark 16: 14-15 “ At length he appeared to the eleven [Apostles: Judas had hung himself] as they were at table: and he upbraided them with their incredulity and hardness of heart, because they did not believe them who had seen him after he was risen again. And he said to them: Go ye into the whole world, and preach the gospel to every creature.”

Matthew 28: 16-20 “And the eleven disciples [Apostles] went into Galilee, unto the mountain where Jesus had appointed them. And Jesus coming, spoke to them, saying: All power is given to me in heaven and in earth. Going therefore, teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have [TAUGHT &] commanded you: and behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world.”

So now the Divine Will is made evident and clear. In order to fulfill this NEW expanded mandate, Succession is not an option, but an absolute necessity. And is Christ Himself who commanded it. Anything less than this would mean that Christ intended His New “Church,” New Faith, to end with the demise of the Apostles. An impossible scenario. Peter mandating a replacement for Judas Acts 1 – 15-26; And Christ selection of Paul as the NEW 13th Apostle, make biblically clear that Christ and Peter were of the same mind on this issue of necessary Succession. Acts 9: 1-10. Both of these took place after Christ Resurrection. END OF [#3]

Quote:
[4] And So the problem is also the RCC is leaving out all the righteous ppl from the OT. [4][WRONG more than FALSE]
Keeping to a minimum on this; I will address your statement in the limited manner of JUST the OT, as you phrased it.

The Catholic Church has NOTHING to do effecting the salvation of OT people. This all takes place under the OT Covenants, and mandated conditions. The One rather remote connection has to do with entry into heaven itself; which had been blocked from the Grave sins of Adam and Eve. And a primary effect of Christ Resurrection was to REOPEN the Gate of Heaven, and allowing those Souls that had been waiting for this in the “Limbo of the Just” [similar to heaven BUT lacking the Beatific Vision; the Presence of God]. Non-Catholic-Christians, commonly and in grave error, try to make “Redemption and Salvation” SYNONYMOUS and completely interchangeable terms. THEY ARE NOT. Redemption involved all of humanity; past, present and future; and is an completed and accomplished fact. A primary result of which was to once again make salvation, IN HEAVEN, POSSIBLE and a highly Conditional personal choice.

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Think of it this way. God has always had a ppl from righteous Abel up to believers of today. And were these 'first' ppl Catholic? We all know the answer is, no. Now for those of you who think I just made this up, let's look at what the Scripture says about this same 'subject.'
My dear friend, one MUST separate the people judged By God under the “Laws” and the New Covenant people now under Grace +” laws”. Mt. 19: 17] The criteria and demands are vastly different.

Ac 7:38 This is he, [Moses] that was in the * church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:

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* church. See the problem comes in when ppl misuse the word 'church.' It's ekklesia [GREEK] and means "Catholics," right? [WRONG!] No, it means the called out ones' So tell me this, did Christ/God just first began to 'call ppl' when Peter made his confusion, and then ONLY Catholic ppl? Or did God call ppl right from the beginning and continues to do so today?
From STRONGS [an experts opinion] Bible lexicon for English to GREEK meanings:

file:///D:/Internet%20Shortcuts/Strong's%20Concordance%20with%20Hebrew%20and%20Gre ek%20Lexicon.htm

Result of search for "church":
1577. ekklesia ek-klay-see'-ah from a compound of 1537 and a derivative of 2564; a calling out, i.e. (concretely) a popular meeting, especially a religious congregation (Jewish synagogue, or Christian community of members on earth or saints in heaven or both):--assembly, church.________________________________________
1985. episkopos ep-is'-kop-os from 1909 and 4649 (in the sense of 1983); a superintendent, i.e. Christian officer in genitive case charge of a (or the) church (literally or figuratively):--bishop, overseer.
________________________________________
2941. kubernesis koo-ber'-nay-sis from kubernao (of Latin origin, to steer); pilotage, i.e. (figuratively) directorship (in the church):--government.
________________________________________
4622. Sion see-own' of Hebrew origin (6726); Sion (i.e. Tsijon), a hill of Jerusalem; figuratively, the Church (militant or triumphant):--Sion.
________________________________________
4864. sunagoge soon-ag-o-gay' from (the reduplicated form of) 4863; an assemblage of persons; specially, a Jewish "synagogue" (the meeting or the place); by analogy, a Christian church:--assembly, congregation, synagogue.

From the Catechism of the RCC

751 “The word "Church" (Latin ecclesia, from the Greek ek-ka-lein, to "call out of") means a convocation or an assembly. It designates the assemblies of the people, usually for a religious purpose. Ekklesia is used frequently in the Greek Old Testament for the assembly of the Chosen People before God, above all for their assembly on Mount Sinai where Israel received the Law and was established by God as his holy people. By calling itself "Church," the first community of Christian believers recognized itself as heir to that assembly. In the Church, God is "calling together" his people from all the ends of the earth. The equivalent Greek term Kyriake, from which the English word Church and the German Kirche are derived, means "what belongs to the Lord."

1181 “A church, "a house of prayer in which the Eucharist is celebrated and reserved, where the faithful assemble, and where is worshipped the presence of the Son of God our Savior, offered for us on the sacrificial altar for the help and consolation of the faithful - this house ought to be in good taste and a worthy place for prayer and sacred ceremonial." In this "house of God" the truth and the harmony of the signs that make it up should show Christ to be present and active in this place”.

My friend your position is most interesting, it that it is a rare non-Catholic-Christian who attempts to “lump together” all of , of all ages as being on the same foundation footing for Gods necessary fair and Just Judgment of each of us, being covered under the same identical conditions and Covenants. This is simply wrong; and NOT the way God’s Judgment is, is intended to be and WILL BE based on His Most recent Covenant; from the New Testament:

Luke 5: 36-38 “ And he spoke also a similitude to them: That no man putteth a piece from a new garment upon an old garment; otherwise he both rendeth the new, and the piece taken from the new agreeth not with the old. And no man putteth new wine into old bottles: otherwise the new wine will break the bottles, and it will be spilled, and the bottles will be lost. But new wine must be put into new bottles; and both are preserved.”

Hebrews 8: 6 -13 “But as it is, Christ has obtained a ministry which is as much more excellent than the old as the covenant he mediates is better, since it is enacted on better promises. For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion for a second. For he finds fault with them when he says: "The days will come, says the Lord,
when I will establish a new covenant with the house of Israel [here this means with all of humanity] and with the house of Judah; not like the covenant that I made with their fathers
on the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; for they did not continue in my covenant, and so I paid no heed to them, says the Lord.

This is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord:
I will put my laws into their minds, and write them on their hearts, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall not teach every one his fellow or every one his brother, saying, `Know the Lord,' for all shall [HAVE THE ABILTY TO.. a mind, intellect, freewill] know me, from the least of them to the greatest. For I will be merciful toward their iniquities,

and I will remember their sins no more." ** {see explanation below} In speaking of a new covenant he treats the first as obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away”

Heb. 8: 12 What this is teaching is exactly what it says CONDITIONALLY on John 20:19-23. Once the sins have been Confessed, [sacramental Confession] & FORGIVEN the sins WILL BE forgotten. This is not a teaching that all sins are somehow magically forgotten.

Quote:
So back to my question. Who are God's ppl today? They are *believers, call out ones, who come from all walks of life, all races, all countries of the world. Some have been believers most of their life, some will be called out of various 'religions' and some will be called out as unbelievers, all to be grafted into the olive tree [Israel] who's root is Christ.
That is the RIGHT question to ask. The answer to which is not one easily accepted, or for that matter, easy to accomplish. And the RIGHT answer includes people from all faiths.

Matthew 7: 13-24 Give’s the answer to those who have “eyes to see and ears to hear.”
Mt. 13:13 “Therefore do I speak to them in parables: because seeing they see not, and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.” IF anyone is interested I will gladly get into a discussion of just WHAT this teaching means. But this discussion is already too long.







“Enter ye in at the narrow gate: [singular] for wide is the gate, and broad is the way that leadeth to destruction, and many there are who go in thereat. How narrow is the gate, [singular] and strait is the way that leadeth to life: and few there are that find it! Beware of false prophets, who come to you in the clothing of sheep, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

By their fruits you shall know them. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit, and the evil tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can an evil tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit, shall be cut down, and shall be cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits you shall know them. [AND I WILL JUDGE THEM]

Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven. [THIS DEAR FRIEND IS THE PART WITHER IGNORED NOT CORRECTLY OR FULLY UNDERSTOOD OR GLOSSED OVER] Many will say to me in that day: Lord, Lord, have not we prophesied in thy name, and cast out devils in thy name, and done many miracles in thy name? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, you that work iniquity. Every one therefore that heareth these my words, and doth them, shall be likened to a wise man that built his house upon a rock, And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and they beat upon that house, and it fell not, for it was founded on a rock.
And every one that heareth these my words, and doth them not, shall be like a foolish man that built his house upon the sand, And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and they beat upon that house, and it fell, and great was the fall thereof” Only God’s One true Faith, and the [singular] church is built on Christ chosen ROCK. Amen! Cf. “And upon YOU Peter; THIS ROCK, I will [HAVE] built My Church [Singular.

It seems to ME, [in line with what the RCC teaches] that what non-Catholic-Christians fail to comprehend is that Salvation can and most definitely WILL happen ONLY on God’s terms. Not some come lately men’s, “try my way, it’s easier”. It’s “easier” at a VERY steep price my friends,

Quote:
So I repeat. God has always had a ppl and when these ppl, these believers, turn away from God's law/commandments they are 'destroyed' because they lose their connection with their Creator and lose the blessings of God, and possibly eternal life.

*believers, The Scriptures call them "Israel" whether born or adopted/grafted in. Now I know this will offend some but God is called, The God of Israel. Peter stood up and addressed, Catholics? No, "ye men of Israel," etc. etc.
Actually Peter DOD address Catholics; only they didn’t YET recognize this new term.

May God Bless you and grant unto you HIS Wisdom, Knowledge and Right Understanding. Amen!

IamCatholic
Patrick
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Old 04-24-2014, 01:49 AM
 
Location: Florida
5,965 posts, read 5,771,223 times
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Originally Posted by Julian658 View Post
The book is just a spiritual guide. If you use it as the word of God you may end up as a Bibliolatrist of Bible worshiper which is borderline idololatry.

Otherwise, the book has great teachings. Thomas Jefferson took the bible and removed the magic supernatural stuff. It is called the Jefferson Bible and available in Amazon.com.
I agree with you about the bible being worshipped in place of God and that it has become an idol. I wonder why Thomas Jefferson did not like Jesus' miracles ? I mean life itself is a miracle so I don't know why that bothered him so much. Maybe he just did not believe in the miraculous.
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Old 04-24-2014, 02:31 AM
 
Location: Diocese of Raleigh
555 posts, read 356,931 times
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Originally Posted by The Postman View Post
I'm a struggling Christian, and I honestly wish there were more solid reasons to believe that the Bible is God's word
You're in luck...

Quote:
So can anyone help me out here? Provide me with rock solid evidence that the Bible has a supernatural author that cannot be easily explained away?
...because God provided a sure way of knowing. The Catholic Church tells us the Bible is inspired, and we can take the Church’s word for it precisely because the Church is infallible. Only after having been told by a properly constituted authority—that is, one established by God to assure us of the truth concerning matters of faith—that the Bible is inspired can we reasonably begin to use it as an inspired book.

The full explanation is laid out here:

Proving Inspiration
http://www.catholic.com/tracts/proving-inspiration

Last edited by CRCarson; 04-24-2014 at 03:22 AM..
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Old 04-24-2014, 11:01 AM
Status: "Watching America made small." (set 6 days ago)
 
Location: Ontario, Canada
25,960 posts, read 13,487,179 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CRCarson View Post
You're in luck...



...because God provided a sure way of knowing. The Catholic Church tells us the Bible is inspired, and we can take the Church’s word for it precisely because the Church is infallible. Only after having been told by a properly constituted authority—that is, one established by God to assure us of the truth concerning matters of faith—that the Bible is inspired can we reasonably begin to use it as an inspired book.

The full explanation is laid out here:

Proving Inspiration
Proving Inspiration | Catholic Answers
So, some ancient anonymous writers, all claiming to be channeling god, wrote a bunch of stories they borrowed from other cultures. Over the course of a few hundred years, some other men decided which of those stories really, really, fer-sure came from god-channeling.

And because you believe those old, dead men, it constitutes "proof" of the legitimacy of the bible.

Yeah. Right.

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