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Old 10-03-2013, 03:41 PM
 
Location: Dallas TX
304 posts, read 247,744 times
Reputation: 42

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Quote:
Originally Posted by little elmer View Post
The entire passage is about law! The rich young (denoting immature) ruler came to Jesus with his obedience in mind - that's the Law, righteousness based on our works.
No it's not.

First off, the COMMANDMENTS ARE NOT THE LAW.

NO JEW would assume they were the law, unless you were intending it like "The Law, the songs, and the prophets" to denote which part of their Bible you referenced.

The commandments were a DIFFERENT covenant and was NEVER fulfilled/done away with, excised from the world as the levitical law was.

You have no idea what the RYR had on his mind when he came to Jesus. You just imagine and presume and demand we accept that?

I contend he went to Jesus for a good lesson from a Rabbi about what foods to eat. AND HERE IS THE KICKER, I have as much, or more biblical support than you have for your supposition.

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Old 10-03-2013, 03:48 PM
 
Location: Frisco, TX
7,559 posts, read 11,908,931 times
Reputation: 4519
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xian Catalyst View Post
No it's not.

First off, the COMMANDMENTS ARE NOT THE LAW.

NO JEW would assume they were the law, unless you were intending it like "The Law, the songs, and the prophets" to denote which part of their Bible you referenced.

The commandments were a DIFFERENT covenant and was NEVER fulfilled/done away with, excised from the world as the levitical law was.

You have no idea what the RYR had on his mind when he came to Jesus. You just imagine and presume and demand we accept that?

I contend he went to Jesus for a good lesson from a Rabbi about what foods to eat. AND HERE IS THE KICKER, I have as much, or more biblical support than you have for your supposition.

So answer me this: is it your works and good deeds that give you favor with God?
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Old 10-03-2013, 03:52 PM
 
Location: Dallas TX
304 posts, read 247,744 times
Reputation: 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by little elmer View Post
So answer me this: is it your works and good deeds that give you favor with God?
has nothing to do with anything I've said, nor anything in this chat. Why would you try to derail us like that?

Nobody has said, nor hinted that works save you.
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Old 10-03-2013, 03:58 PM
 
Location: Frisco, TX
7,559 posts, read 11,908,931 times
Reputation: 4519
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xian Catalyst View Post
has nothing to do with anything I've said, nor anything in this chat. Why would you try to derail us like that?

Nobody has said, nor hinted that works save you.
I have maintained that I see the passage of scripture is based upon that very issue, and discussed it from that point of view. You've argued that I'm wrong about what I know, and that makes for a real downer on a "Christian" forum.

See ya.
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Old 10-03-2013, 07:51 PM
 
794 posts, read 678,255 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xian Catalyst View Post
Ok, that's a deduction from scripture but isn't stated in scripture. As a deduction, it is arguable. So, could you explain how you got there for those who don't understand or are new to this discussion in general?




There is nothing that says this. Did you have road to damascus event for this revelation?



Another presumption, you/we don't' know if or if not he would or did do it.



I'm sorry, I really have no clue what that is saying. I'm not commenting on your argument or words, it's self deprecating, I'm lost in the syntax. Please help?



Ok, this is the typical seminary answer, but it's based solely on suppositions, not on scripture. I understand it makes sense to you, but that doesn't make it so. Gideon surely didn't make sense of charging with crock pots and bugles but he went anyway.

So before we start using the suppositions to explore possibilities, let's deal with what we DO have, which is the scripture given above in the opening post. OR OTHER scripture if you have it. But you can't PRESUME a man's thoughts who is dead for 2000 years and proclaim it changes what was written.

That's just not fair and it's esiegetics, not exegetics.
Well, given that the man did not say he lacked in any area pertaining to the law, it is obvious and factual to say that he did indeed not find any fault with him self in his own mind according to his knowledge of the law and righteousness.

As far as whether or not the man would give his things to the poor is irrelevant to the fact that it is something he knew and Jesus knew never had crossed his mind before and would not have to his dieing breath. If it would, Jesus would not have said, "One thing you lack" and then tell him the lack in his life.

The point is until we seize our self efforts and stop relying on our own works and pride to deem us worthy of Heaven, we will never come to the conclusion that we do indeed need someone to save us. That is exactly what Jesus did with this man.
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Old 10-03-2013, 07:54 PM
 
Location: Dallas TX
304 posts, read 247,744 times
Reputation: 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by little elmer View Post
I have maintained that I see the passage of scripture is based upon that very issue, and discussed it from that point of view. You've argued that I'm wrong about what I know, and that makes for a real downer on a "Christian" forum.

See ya.
You are running off on a works saves tangent...

because of this....

Originally Posted by little elmer View Post
So answer me this: is it your works and good deeds that give you favor with God?


That didn't come from any verse. It came from no where. If you are leaving, sorry, but don't try to put it off on me. Talk about downers...
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Old 10-03-2013, 08:55 PM
 
Location: Dallas TX
304 posts, read 247,744 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by romans519 View Post
Well, given that the man did not say he lacked in any area pertaining to the law, it is obvious and factual to say that he did indeed not find any fault with him self in his own mind according to his knowledge of the law and righteousness.
That's pretty darn fair. Paul, for the record, made the same claim.

Quote:
Originally Posted by romans519 View Post
As far as whether or not the man would give his things to the poor is irrelevant to the fact that it is something he knew and Jesus knew never had crossed his mind before and would not have to his dieing breath.
What verse says this? Or are we presupposing again?

Quote:
Originally Posted by romans519 View Post
If it would, Jesus would not have said, "One thing you lack" and then tell him the lack in his life.
I gave you, not only an acceptable reason why Jesus said why youlack, but one with no presupposing, one tha tis consistent through out the NT teachings, and requires only to read the verses as written.

Before the "one thing you lack", he said, IF YOU WOULD BE MATURE or FULL GROWN, sell all you have and come to me a pauper and follow me.

That's exactly what the beatitude says inherits the kingdom, one who is poor in spirit, dependent, can't take care of themselves. JESUS was showing him to the next step of maturity, NOT salvation, that was given and not doubted, apparently, but after salvation, there is maturation. Christ tried to help him on to that.

We are made perfect in our weakness..... same thought. We have to be less, so he can be more. We have to DIE to the prior life, and lean on him fully. Jesus tried to help him down that path. Now, I think you would agree with me that someone won't be spiritually mature BEFORE they are saved, and that salvation comes first. Well, this RYR was (even if you don't accept my view) very logically saved under the covenant of the law to Jesus satisfaction. That is a much easier assumption to make, than Jesus knew he failed, and didn't tell him and sent him off to die and go to hell.

Quote:
Originally Posted by romans519 View Post
The point is until we seize our self efforts
This is why what I'm saying isn't making sense to you. You are focused on self efforts and what man can do. Man's doing has nothing to do with what Jesus told the RYR to do. Jesus was telling the RYR to go get rid of EVERYTHING you can do things with, and come lean on me with nothing.


Quote:
Originally Posted by romans519 View Post
and stop relying on our own works and pride to deem us worthy of Heaven, we will never come to the conclusion that we do indeed need someone to save us. That is exactly what Jesus did with this man.
Because someone was under the law, doesn't mean they were trying to work their way to heaven. EVEN IF THEY KEPT ALL THE LAWS, it doesn't mean they were trying to work their way to heaven. BUT, they might have been, but not everyone had such a rotten heart.
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Old 10-03-2013, 09:22 PM
 
Location: Southern Oregon
16,296 posts, read 7,680,345 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xian Catalyst View Post
Does that mean I can backhandedly comment to ridicule your statements below too? I gotta tell ya, makes for a long day...



Yes, so what. it can happen. Camels went through the eye of the needle all the time in that city. It was one of the gates. AND it doesn't say a camel can't go through the eye. PLUS you are ignoring what the word PERFECT MEANS.

AND You ignore that JESUS LOVED the guy, he would have told him to keep him from dying....
Clearly you wrote this not having read or considered my second post. No one said that the camel thing could not happen, just that it was difficult. I think it fairly significant that camels had to get into a pretty humble position to get through that gate.

As I said, your conclusions are good about maturity. The main point to me is that it requires a healthy dose of agape, the concern for the well-being of others as well as trust in the providence of the Lord.

When you use the shovel quote, credit it to George Pepperdine.
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Old 10-03-2013, 09:39 PM
 
Location: Gulf Coast Texas
28,551 posts, read 15,494,856 times
Reputation: 11431
Just looking at the OP ... I don't think anyone can assume that he was saved.

The Holy Spirit was not given permanently yet.
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Old 10-04-2013, 06:55 AM
 
Location: North Carolina
1,542 posts, read 1,060,741 times
Reputation: 176
Quote:
Originally Posted by DRob4JC View Post
Just looking at the OP ... I don't think anyone can assume that he was saved.

The Holy Spirit was not given permanently yet.
If we hunger and thirst after righteousness, as Cornelius did in Acts ch. 10, I believe we can be filled with that Holy Spirit, as Cornelius and his Gentile friends were. But Hebrews 10:26 gives us a sober warning,
"For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, [which comes with the Holy Ghost] there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins," So if we go back into living a life in deliberate disobedience to our Savior, we forfeit our salvation. As Jesus told the impotent man whom he had made whole, "Sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee [John 5:14]." If we have truly been regenerated by receiving the Holy Ghost, whom Peter said God gives to them that obey Him [Acts 5:32], there remaineth no more sacrifice if we go back into the old house, and we lose that holy Ghost.
But if we commit pardonable sins, which we all do as we mature in our faith, as 1 John 1 says [9] If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
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