U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 10-05-2013, 04:27 PM
 
Location: New England
32,222 posts, read 21,097,983 times
Reputation: 2274

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by ScarletWren View Post
I don't know what I would do, it's unimaginable to me that the one who created us and gave us life and the ability to do evil would torture us for that, especially since we have such little control over any aspect of our life, including our mental faculties, the way we react, etc. He had 'eternity' to finish us and make us right. As for annhilation, that would seem more lenient on those who acted more wickedly than those who think they do good, but what effect does that have upon the mothers or siblings of those persons who loved them? It isn't right to do a lobotomy on what made up much of our earthly life if that life is supposedly what we are judged on. If I can love a child who is capable of evil, and my love is not perfect, I can't imagine a creator who could not only turn his back on one of His but allow him to survive in endless misery. It just does not compute. He created us to be the recipient of His love, not for someone to love Him, once we realize the full measure of His love, it will heal everyone. That's my opinion
I love your spirit and post SC. The reason behind evil will come to light one day, and we'll discover it was not God influenced.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 10-06-2013, 07:11 AM
 
Location: Gettysburg, PA
1,617 posts, read 1,619,269 times
Reputation: 2989
Quote:
Originally Posted by Torpedos View Post
For ETers: if you see that there is no hell and the bad people have come to an understanding and are there is heaven with you. Or if the bad people are just annihilated . No hell? Would you be mad that people are not burning?
Oh my gosh, no, I'd be thrilled to death. This is what I'm hoping will happen, though it's not what I believe because it appears that scripturally there is some sort of eternal punishment for unbelievers. Nevertheless, God knows what is in my heart and it is useless to lie about how I hope there will be no eternal punishment. I am a human. I can't just cut off my human affections and hope people (even people who don't believe in God) will be eternally tormented. It's just not in my make-up.

One thing I have come to an understanding of is that it is impossible to fully comprehend God. The finite cannot contain the infinite. One such thing I feel it is impossible to understand by us finite creatures is God's sovereignty and our own free will. The two seem contradictory. It is just something we must take by faith and not demand that our own limited minds be able to perceive how this is possible (at least this is how I understand it).

I feel the same about eternal punishment. I know that God is compassionate and that His mercy endureth forever. I trust in Him. The idea of someone being eternally tormented for their transgressions does not fit in my mind as something capable of a compassionate, merciful God. Nevertheless, I am a finite creature and He is infinite. There are some things I am never going to be able to comprehend about Him no matter how much I try to rationalize it. We walk by faith, not by what our minds can fully comprehend.

I suppose that there might be some who feel that if they can't rationally comprehend something, then they will not believe it for I guess they refuse to lower themselves to that sort of level of believing things without being able to comprehend it because there are so many things which they can comprehend (? I don't know--I'm not quite sure how to describe that feeling; perhaps they feel they're being taken advantage of, or if they start to believe that then they might be duped in to believing other things or something like that). Personally, I feel that that is the pride of human knowledge setting in, as in if someone can't understand something then it has no place in someone's very high mind which is replete with all kinds of understanding. It's arrogance. I know that God has given us the gift of reason, yet it seems very reasonable to me to understand that the infinite cannot be perceived by something finite.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-06-2013, 09:16 AM
 
Location: california
5,654 posts, read 4,878,328 times
Reputation: 6681
I worked in production on stents for the heart and other arteries .
The rejection rate depended on a very high list of manufacturing requirements ,with a spirit of our product could actually be applied to some on in our own family.
With that in mind ,while you doing our work ,just how sloppy are you going to be ?
If caught being sloppy ,one is reprimanded ,until either you change your attitude or are moved to something less sensitive , or fired.
There is no tolerance for sloppy , it not only reflects on the company as a whole and is a serious liability , any negative issues with customers and every one looses.
It's a really big deal.
Out of something 4mmx10mm.
Flaws matter.
Don't they matter to you ?
Do you put rotten food on you table for every one to eat? why not ?
What do you do with rotten food ?
I put it either in the garbage or on the mulch pile .
Does any one that cares about their life, deliberately put cancer in their body? NO (some one that smokes does not care about their life nor those around them, knowing full well what it does)
So why would any one think God would bring rebellion to heaven and endanger His home and those He loves ?
So , what do you do with infectious disease ?
God removed Satan from heaven for rebellion, along with a third of the angels .
That should be a lesson for those of you choosing to embrace the questionable tutelage of men rather than God him self.
I would leave you with this last thing,
Jesus said it is a narrow way, and FEW there be that find it.
Revelation reveals that heaven is a measured fixed size .
On the other hand the old testament reveals that hell is ever expanding .
Interesting to note that the earth's core is molten iron among other things ,and it seems that the earth is expanding as well. Earth quakes in the pacific ring of fire are evidence of that.
How would early man know such things?
Elements such a argon gas are so heavy they not only drop to the ground but continue through the dirt down word.
With out something to house it, it fallows it's natural course.
With out God's intervention and healing, man's dormant soul has only this body to support it . Once the body has begun to decay ,what's left will be consumed into the earth naturally including the unregenerated soul.
Jesus said ,"except a man is borne again he cannot see the kingdom of heaven."
This is a healing or a quickening of the soul/spirit, binging the dormant to life like a seed getting water and soil.
What it feeds on matters ,because God will still judge the use or abuse of this gift, just as Satan is judged.
Choosing to feed your born again soul/spirit from the table of men, rather than the hand of God, is an insult for the investment wouldn't you agree ?
John 15; Jesus said God will have fruitless branches (like leaches) removed off His son and burned. These are folks that got connected born again initially, fed of the word of men, and use Jesus name for their own means, and are not obedient to God. Matthew 7; 21,22,23, Not just preachers, but many that have only a casual faith.
I do not sport these verses litely, there is a personal examination that goes on every day, that I should pray and obey.
There is an eternal perspective that is different ,when one hangs around God .
I so wish you could see it .
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-06-2013, 09:17 AM
 
Location: USA
15,906 posts, read 8,166,085 times
Reputation: 2103
Quote:
Originally Posted by Basiliximab View Post
Oh my gosh, no, I'd be thrilled to death. This is what I'm hoping will happen, though it's not what I believe because it appears that scripturally there is some sort of eternal punishment for unbelievers. Nevertheless, God knows what is in my heart and it is useless to lie about how I hope there will be no eternal punishment. I am a human. I can't just cut off my human affections and hope people (even people who don't believe in God) will be eternally tormented. It's just not in my make-up.

One thing I have come to an understanding of is that it is impossible to fully comprehend God. The finite cannot contain the infinite. One such thing I feel it is impossible to understand by us finite creatures is God's sovereignty and our own free will. The two seem contradictory. It is just something we must take by faith and not demand that our own limited minds be able to perceive how this is possible (at least this is how I understand it).

I feel the same about eternal punishment. I know that God is compassionate and that His mercy endureth forever. I trust in Him. The idea of someone being eternally tormented for their transgressions does not fit in my mind as something capable of a compassionate, merciful God. Nevertheless, I am a finite creature and He is infinite. There are some things I am never going to be able to comprehend about Him no matter how much I try to rationalize it. We walk by faith, not by what our minds can fully comprehend.

I suppose that there might be some who feel that if they can't rationally comprehend something, then they will not believe it for I guess they refuse to lower themselves to that sort of level of believing things without being able to comprehend it because there are so many things which they can comprehend (? I don't know--I'm not quite sure how to describe that feeling; perhaps they feel they're being taken advantage of, or if they start to believe that then they might be duped in to believing other things or something like that). Personally, I feel that that is the pride of human knowledge setting in, as in if someone can't understand something then it has no place in someone's very high mind which is replete with all kinds of understanding. It's arrogance. I know that God has given us the gift of reason, yet it seems very reasonable to me to understand that the infinite cannot be perceived by something finite.
Basil, I appreciate the spirit of your post, and also that you are (from another post you wrote) planning to study this topic for yourself, and based on your tone, I'm sure it will be with an open heart.

But one thing I would say to you is that there is a difference between a finite mind not being able to comprehend the infinite (I agree), and not being able to reconcile the doctrine of eternal torment with what God IS ... love. They are not compatible beliefs so you're not talking about something that isn't comprehensible to the human mind (it is the human mind that conceived ET, and sometimes revels in it), but something that is in direct opposition to and conflict with the very nature and character of God.

What we can't comprehend with our finite minds is the magnitude of how loving and good God's plan is:

“Eye has not seen, nor ear heard,
Nor have entered into the heart of man
The things which God has prepared for those who love Him.”

(1 Cor 2) But you have the mind of Christ, so you CAN judge whether or not something is of the Spirit of God, who is love. That is what you need in order to be able to comprehend that faith in the God who is love and a belief in eternal torment are not compatible.

The fact that you are hoping that eternal hell is not true is proof to me that you do have the mind of Christ. If we hope that God would be so merciful, and God is not, that would make us finite humans MORE loving and merciful than God, and we know that's not possible, right?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-06-2013, 09:29 AM
 
Location: USA
15,906 posts, read 8,166,085 times
Reputation: 2103
Quote:
Originally Posted by arleigh View Post
So why would any one think God would bring rebellion to heaven and endanger His home and those He loves ?
No one is saying that.


Quote:
So , what do you do with infectious disease ?
Do you know any doctors who say, "I can't cure this disease so I'm going to kill the patient instead because I don't want him to infect the whole hospital?" That's what you are saying God does about spiritual sickness. Only ET takes it a huge step further and says that he's not just going to kill the patients, he's got to torture them for eternity.

Last edited by Pleroo; 10-06-2013 at 09:38 AM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-06-2013, 09:35 AM
 
7,099 posts, read 24,491,677 times
Reputation: 7302
"would you be mad?''

IF you are mad, angry, disappointed, or whatever, do you really think that you would be in heaven? Or would you be among those that aren't burning up?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-06-2013, 12:35 PM
 
40,043 posts, read 26,725,598 times
Reputation: 6048
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pleroo View Post
Basil, I appreciate the spirit of your post, and also that you are (from another post you wrote) planning to study this topic for yourself, and based on your tone, I'm sure it will be with an open heart.

But one thing I would say to you is that there is a difference between a finite mind not being able to comprehend the infinite (I agree), and not being able to reconcile the doctrine of eternal torment with what God IS ... love. They are not compatible beliefs so you're not talking about something that isn't comprehensible to the human mind (it is the human mind that conceived ET, and sometimes revels in it), but something that is in direct opposition to and conflict with the very nature and character of God.

What we can't comprehend with our finite minds is the magnitude of how loving and good God's plan is:

“Eye has not seen, nor ear heard,
Nor have entered into the heart of man
The things which God has prepared for those who love Him.”

(1 Cor 2) But you have the mind of Christ, so you CAN judge whether or not something is of the Spirit of God, who is love. That is what you need in order to be able to comprehend that faith in the God who is love and a belief in eternal torment are not compatible.

The fact that you are hoping that eternal hell is not true is proof to me that you do have the mind of Christ. If we hope that God would be so merciful, and God is not, that would make us finite humans MORE loving and merciful than God, and we know that's not possible, right?
You are posting so many great posts I cannot spread my reps around fast enough to rep you, Pleroo . . . so
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-06-2013, 02:44 PM
 
Location: Tucson, Arizona
987 posts, read 908,249 times
Reputation: 295
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pleroo View Post
Do you know any doctors who say, "I can't cure this disease so I'm going to kill the patient instead because I don't want him to infect the whole hospital?" That's what you are saying God does about spiritual sickness. Only ET takes it a huge step further and says that he's not just going to kill the patients, he's got to torture them for eternity.
And not only that but humans are not all-knowing and all powerful. Is there any disease or evil that God can not cure, erradicate, or overcome with His loving kindness and mercy? Within the 'confines' of eternity, can He not find a way to remake every heart into a loving one, just as he broke the clay vessels in Israel so He could refashion them? If your heart is not replaced can you honestly think that you won't have a moment of rebellion or boredom or anything else that we are plagued with here? How do we know we can follow all the rules? How many 'evil' people are so because of faulty neurons, faulty consciences unable to feel sympathy, remorse or sorrow for others. Tumors on the brain are things that can be discovered but there are countless other reasons that combine to create one who we believe is evil. We are so quick to judge some one else's actions, declaring "I" would NEVER do that. How do you know that you would not do the exact same thing if you had lived that person's life, had the same kind of thought patterns, etc? You can't! God certainly has the insight to know why everyone does what he does and He even declares that He turns the hears of kings as He can turn the river. Could you be patient as long as Job if all your children were killed, your wealth removed, your skin covered with boils? Your friends accusing you of some hidden secret sin?

We are not failed attempts by God to create something perfect. We are works in progress.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-06-2013, 04:30 PM
 
Location: Clanton, AL
668 posts, read 570,628 times
Reputation: 81
Did anyone notice the OP saying they would be upset at God for doing what He revealed He would do? I don't think threatening God is a wise thing to do.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-06-2013, 09:58 PM
 
Location: San Antonio
2,819 posts, read 2,873,492 times
Reputation: 1246
Quote:
Originally Posted by FundamentalBibleBeliever View Post
Did anyone notice the OP saying they would be upset at God for doing what He revealed He would do? I don't think threatening God is a wise thing to do.
Threatening God? Wow, how did you figure that out. I sure would not want to worship a god that would burn people up. A god that burns people is not a god at all. So I guess you can say I will threaten such a god. But I would never lift such a thought against the Almighty God.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top