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Old 10-05-2013, 08:18 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arleigh View Post
We will be at an impass, I do not regard Paul as the word of God.
Mike , you disregard the anointing received from Jesus, not men.
(Reference is to post #26)

On the contrary. But as Scripture shows, one of the functions of the apostles was to teach. It remains the function of pastor/teachers to teach. Jesus Himself told His disciples to teach His commandments.
Matthew 28:19 ''Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, 20] teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.''
As shown, the false argument that human teachers are not legitimate is based on cherry picking certain verses and disregarding others.

Last edited by Mike555; 10-05-2013 at 09:26 PM..
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Old 10-05-2013, 08:21 PM
Status: "Land is in California; World is in Florida" (set 1 day ago)
 
Location: Galaxy’s Edge
16,429 posts, read 8,949,870 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arleigh View Post
We will be at an impass, I do not regard Paul as the word of God.
The Apostle Peter (who walked with Jesus) did.

2 Peter 3

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Old 10-05-2013, 08:26 PM
 
Location: where people are either too stupid to leave or too stuck to move
3,997 posts, read 5,744,235 times
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we burn in hell for all eternity
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Old 10-05-2013, 08:38 PM
 
Location: california
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I am thankful that what Jesus said is true , and the Holy Spirit teaches me and gives me guidance day by day.
I have known the Lord, since I was seven ,and had His tutelage since I was 20 and now am 63. Been to bible school and even served on evangelistic team around the continent , and know the hand of God in ways you can only imagine.
I have labored over this issue for many years, and the bottom line still holds. Jesus said "My sheep know my voice ."
Obedience can only come from knowing the tutelage of the Holy Spirit, Just as Jesus said .
How do you call him Lord, if you don't know His voice nor obey Him?
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Old 10-05-2013, 09:04 PM
 
Location: Dallas TX
304 posts, read 248,129 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
The only trustworthy authority under the New Covenant is the Holy Spirit (Comforter) and what God has "written in our hearts." You are refusing to trust the Living Word of God who abides with us and what God has "written in your heart" . . . in favor of what is in a book with words "written in ink" and interpreted by men. If you read the words without asking WWJT . . . you will not know the truth. If you do not sincerely query your heart of hearts . . . you will not know the truth.
Which spirit?

Can't be the same spirit that everyone says gives them the truth. It's like a room fulla schizophrenics arguing about who's voices know the real truth.
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Old 10-05-2013, 09:07 PM
 
Location: Dallas TX
304 posts, read 248,129 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arleigh View Post
One can really know God ,It is why Jesus provided the Holy Spirit to teach in Jesus place .
Read the gospel of John all of it . then 1John 2; all of it.
It has always been God's intention to be our teacher.
And if one has not learned to obey in this life he will hardly be welcomed in the next. Matthew 7; all of it.
And if a man acts as a self serving leach then John 15 applies.
Final note, if one falsely calls Jesus Lord, and does not obey Him , it is a lie God must judge ,, not defend.
Arleigh, as you stated that, you are contradicting scripture in a profound way. But it's a pathodentic dymentia in the Protestant churches.

That, as you put it, will not fit in scripture.

I don't care what you believe, or that you believe that, I'm not telling you what to believe, but if I contradicted it, I'd wanna know sooner not later. ya know?
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Old 10-05-2013, 09:09 PM
 
Location: Dallas TX
304 posts, read 248,129 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arleigh View Post
We will be at an impass, I do not regard Paul as the word of God.
Mike , you disregard the anointing received from Jesus, not men.
Yeah, I wouldn't either he came with horrible credentials. Jesus, The earliest church, the later church, the ones who walked with him, who saw his miracles, what the heck do they know. THey aren't as smart as we are, are they?
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Old 10-05-2013, 11:06 PM
 
40,298 posts, read 26,876,846 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
This is an example of cherry picking, the very topic of this thread. It's an appeal to 1 John 2:27 in order to dismiss the need of being taught by others.
As for you, the anointing which you received from Him abides in you, and you have no need for anyone to teach you; but as His anointing teaches you about all things, and is true and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you abide in Him.
The Expositor's Bible Commentary, vol. 12, p. 327, states regarding 1 John 2:27;
Since they have received their ''teaching'' from the Son through those who were his witnesses from the beginning and have his ''anointing,'' they have in fact no need for anyone more to teach them, not even John himself.
Your claim that we have no need of teaching because we have Christ and the Holy Sprit to teach us ignores both the immediate context and what is said elsewhere in the NT. John was writing to relatively spiritually mature believers who had previously received apostolic teaching under the filling of the Holy Spirit. At the very beginning of his letter, John writes that what the apostles had heard from the beginning, they had proclaimed (taught) to the recipients of his letter (1 John 1:1-3).
We have been over this many times, Mike and you know that it is not just one verse. It is many verses and they all speak of the change wrought by Christ and the New Covenant. You are mired in the ancient ignorance of the OT and rejecting and ignoring the truth of the New Covenant that Christ established . . . because you think it has yet to be established under your mentors' theology ("precepts and doctrines of men.")

John 5:37-40 Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

37 `And the Father who sent me Himself hath testified concerning me; ye have neither heard His voice at any time, nor His appearance have ye seen;
38 and His word ye have not remaining in you, because whom He sent, Him ye do not believe.
39 `Ye search the Writings (OT), because ye think in them to have life age-during, and these are they that are testifying concerning Me;
40 and ye do not will to come unto Me, that ye may have life;

The purpose of the OT was to prepare us for Christ under the schoolmaster of the Law.

Galatians 3:23

But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. 24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

Hebrews 8:7-13 King James Version (KJV)

7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

Hebrews 9:15

For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance—now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.

John 14:26 King James Version (KJV)

26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.


1 John 2:27 (King James Version)

27But the anointing which ye have received of Him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in Him.

2 Corinthians 3: 2-6 (King James Version)

2Ye are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read of all men:
3Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.
4And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward:
5Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;
6Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter
, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

2 Corinthians 3:14-17

But their minds were blinded (blind minds= veil of ignorance): for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
15But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
16Nevertheless when it (the heart) shall turn to the Lord (Christ), the vail shall be taken away.
17Now the Lord is that Spirit (Holy Spirit): and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
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Old 10-05-2013, 11:31 PM
 
22,042 posts, read 16,797,262 times
Reputation: 8796
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
We have been over this many times, Mike and you know that it is not just one verse. It is many verses and they all speak of the change wrought by Christ and the New Covenant. You are mired in the ancient ignorance of the OT and rejecting and ignoring the truth of the New Covenant that Christ established . . . because you think it has yet to be established under your mentors' theology ("precepts and doctrines of men.")

John 5:37-40 Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

37 `And the Father who sent me Himself hath testified concerning me; ye have neither heard His voice at any time, nor His appearance have ye seen;
38 and His word ye have not remaining in you, because whom He sent, Him ye do not believe.
39 `Ye search the Writings (OT), because ye think in them to have life age-during, and these are they that are testifying concerning Me;
40 and ye do not will to come unto Me, that ye may have life;

The purpose of the OT was to prepare us for Christ under the schoolmaster of the Law.

Galatians 3:23

But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. 24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

Hebrews 8:7-13 King James Version (KJV)

7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

Hebrews 9:15

For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance—now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.

John 14:26 King James Version (KJV)

26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.


1 John 2:27 (King James Version)

27But the anointing which ye have received of Him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in Him.

2 Corinthians 3: 2-6 (King James Version)

2Ye are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read of all men:
3Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.
4And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward:
5Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;
6Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter
, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

2 Corinthians 3:14-17

But their minds were blinded (blind minds= veil of ignorance): for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
15But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
16Nevertheless when it (the heart) shall turn to the Lord (Christ), the vail shall be taken away.
17Now the Lord is that Spirit (Holy Spirit): and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
(Reference is to posts #26 and 31)

Deny it though you may, there is no getting around the fact that you are simply ignoring the New Testament Scriptures which clearly show that human teachers are legitimate in God's plan for communicating spiritual truths to believers both in the previous dispensation of Israel and in the current Church age. By ignoring certain verses in favor of other verses which you wrongly think say that human teachers are not necessary, you are cherry picking. As shown in post #26 the readers to whom John wrote in 1 John 2:27 and to which he said did not need anyone to teach them, had already previously received apostolic teaching. They did not need any additional teaching to avoid being deceived by the false teachers to whom he referred.

The Holy Spirit who indwells every Church age believer, and who is the true Mentor, uses the Scriptures and human teachers (Pastor/teachers) to teach believers. To deny that in the face of the Scriptures which speak of human teachers is, again, cherry picking.

Anyone who is objective and honest can recognize that fact no matter how much you choose to deny it.
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Old 10-06-2013, 02:22 AM
 
Location: Southern Oregon
16,370 posts, read 7,706,669 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
(Reference is to post #26)

On the contrary. But as Scripture shows, one of the functions of the apostles was to teach. It remains the function of pastor/teachers to teach. Jesus Himself told His disciples to teach His commandments.
Matthew 28:19 ''Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, 20] teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.''
As shown, the false argument that human teachers are not legitimate is based on cherry picking certain verses and disregarding others.
I did not see that asserted. Maybe I'm missing something. All I saw asserted is that we are to learn from the Holy Spirit, which IS true and that Spirit is what was promised us to lead us into all truth.

teachers may be and are used by the Spirit. Paul also never said that anyone who teaches should use the title of "teacher" or claim the authority associated wiht the title. The Spirit is ALWAYS the authority and anyone who teaches is a tool for good or bad depending on whether they teach IN the Spirit.
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