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Old 10-09-2013, 09:02 AM
21,808 posts, read 16,674,400 times
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To anyone who says that it's not important what you believe about Jesus, Jesus responds with;
''Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He You will die in your sins.'' (John 8:24)
Salvation is strictly the work of God. God the Father commissioned the Second Person of the Trinity to enter into the human race as true humanity, but without sin, and to go to the Cross where He bore the sins of the world in His body. While Jesus died in His humanity (for deity cannot die), nevertheless, because Jesus is also God His death as perfect man had infinite value and was therefore able to pay the penalty for the sins of the world in the 3 hour period between 12 noon and 3 pm. That was the period of time in which God the Father sent a supernatural darkness over the land. It was Jesus' spiritual death, not His physical death which paid the penalty for our sins. He was physically alive when He said, Tetelestai - It has been accomplished (Perfect Indicative).
Perfect Tense
The basic thought of the perfect tense is that the progress of an action has been completed and the results of the action are continuing on, in full effect. In other words, the progress of the action has reached its culmination and the finished results are now in existence. Unlike the English perfect, which indicates a completed past action, the Greek perfect tense indicates the continuation and present state of a completed past action. Greek Verbs (Shorter Definitions)
Having paid the penalty for our sins, Jesus then dismissed His spirit into the hands of the Father and died physically so that He could be resurrected and defeat physical death and be the firstfruits of those who are asleep (1 Cor. 15:20).

As a result of the finished work of Christ on the Cross, anyone who simply puts his trust in Christ Jesus - for that is the means by which one receives the free gift of eternal life - is saved, delivered from the penalty of sin which is spiritual death - everlasting separation from God in the lake of fire.
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Old 10-09-2013, 09:55 AM
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Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
The lack of understanding and ignorance revealed here happens to be about the reason the emphasis has been on WHAT you believe ABOUT Christ and NOT about following Christ's instructions to His Disciples to "love God and each other" daily and repent when you don't. Believing specific things ABOUT Christ is directly related to being part of a Christian religion . . . and NOT about being a follower of Christ. It is no straw man. It is the entire reason the churches have so badly corrupted Christ's Gospel beyond recognition. Jesus has to be appalled at the mess the churches have made of His message of love and reconciliation.
Originally Posted by FundamentalBibleBeliever View Post
You are not following the conversation very closely are you? You keep talking about other things.
I am following the discussion very closely. The correct answer to the OP is BOTH are true . . . NOT in regard to the same aspect of our salvation. Christ has saved us ALL, period. We have NOTHING to do with it (Monergism). BUT . . . we are responsible for our sanctification under His love and grace by following His instructions to His disciples to "love God and each other" daily and repent when we don't.(Synergism). To our ancestors . . . this meant we needed to believe Jesus or we would not DO that. But that does NOT mean that the "believe IN" things ABOUT Jesus was the important part. The phrase pisteuo eis (believe ON/INTO") Jesus actually means that having the inner conviction to actually follow His instructions to His disciples was the important part. The churches have twisted it and exploited the belief nonsense to their advantage . . . and have been a stumbling block to actually following Christ.
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Old 10-09-2013, 11:25 AM
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Xian Catalyst , in the Opening Post, asked regarding salvation : “ Is it something YOU do or something HE does, or both?

Hi Xian,

Almost any discussion regarding the nature of salvation and how it is accomplished is bound to result in controversy.

However, I view the concept of interactions between God and Mankind as closely intertwined in terms of how mankind salvation is accomplished. If one looks two waltzing dancers and asks : “which one is dancing”, one must admit that they both are. Though one dancer might lead, it is still a partnership of sorts. If one asks about the covenants and relationship between God and Mankind and which of the two parties have to live up the the conditions of “the new covenant”, whereby mankind may expect to be "saved", I feel the base model of partnership still applies. God and man must both fulfill their parts of this covenant between the two for salvation to be accomplished.

If God had wanted to try to “save” mankind without any input or involvement on mankinds part, he would have engineered mortality differently. On the other hand, I do not believe that man has sufficient power and knowledge to save himself without a greater, external power being involved.

The concept of “partners in a covenant” that seems to underlie and infuse so much of God’s dealings with man also seems more consistent with two (or more) unequal individuals who are involved in a shared enterprise or goal involving the salvation of mankind.

This covenant or contract between God and man seems to consist (on it’s most basic level) of the enterprise of God, offering “salvation” to mankind, based upon man’s obedience to God’s conditions. That is, man cannot be saved by being disobedient or rebellious to God’s conditions. Thus, I believe that a model of partnership where each party to this covenant or contract is involved in this goal of salvation of mankind.

One simple description of this early judeo-christian model regarding how a covenant between God and man works comes from the Zohars mishnic description of mankind redemption as a partnership covenant : “...let her be redeemed’ [Exod. 21:8], as it stands written: ‘He redeems his soul from going into the pit’ [Job 33:28]. This has the meaning that man is counseled to redeem his soul by his repentance. In truth, there is a twofold meaning in the words, ‘then he let her be redeemed,’ for they allude to a man’s own redemption of his soul by repentance, and after it, the redemption from Gehinnom by the Holy One, be blessed.” The Zohar - The Destiny of the Soul

In any case, I wish you the best of luck in coming to your own model of how salvation is to be accomplished and what you will believe regarding this covenant relationship between God and Mankind as it refers to salvation.


Last edited by Clear lens; 10-09-2013 at 12:14 PM..
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Old 10-09-2013, 11:53 AM
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Originally Posted by mszlady View Post
Mystic, I happen to partly agree with you. There should be less focus on WHAT we believe about Christ, and focus on just striving daily to live like him. But, I'm trying to understand, do you not believe in organized religion at all? Meaning you don't go to church? As long as you live as God requires following Christ, you are saved? I'm not disagreeing, I just want a little clarification. Some believe you MUST go to church to be saved, because we're not supposed to forsake the assembly. What is your belief?
If going to church edifies and enhances your relationship with God . . . fine. But it is not necessary. If it becomes a stumbling block to following Christ . . . which many if not most churches have become . . . then do not attend. Attendance has nothing to do with our salvation. Our salvation was achieved by Christ. We take advantage of His love and grace by following His instructions to His disciples to "love god and each other" daily and repent when we don't. Church attendance provides opportunities to follow Christ and experience and show His love for us all . . . but so does everyday life. Christ abides with us.
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Old 10-09-2013, 07:24 PM
Location: Florida
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Originally Posted by romans519 View Post
Salvation was accomplished for you by Jesus. When you choose to believe in Jesus, God gives you a new heart and you are born again. This is something God does to you, after making a choice. Our part is only to choose to believe or not in what Jesus has already done for us.
John 1: 12-14

12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of Godó 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husbandís will, but born of God.

1 Corinthians 12:8-10

8 To one there is given through the Spirit a message of wisdom, to another a message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, 10 to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues,[a] and to still another the interpretation of tongues

Matthew 11:27
ďAll things have been committed to me (Jesus) by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.

God Bless,
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