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Old 10-09-2013, 09:37 PM
 
Location: San Antonio
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Checkered24 View Post
As a parent, I do not even understand how some people decline to do everything possible for their child.
Most parents don't. They wait till the kid gets sick the get help. Doctor or faith based. It is silly to see obese kids, this is a sign that parents don't care for the health of the child. The kid gets diabetes and then they begin to beg God for a healing. Most dieases are preventable by good diet. Medical doctors are just as stupid by giving pills for everything. Rarely does one tell you to change your diet. Stay away from processed foods. Only 6% of docs know anything about nutrition.
I usually try to control the diets of my kids, they rarely get sick. No flu shot ever. Nutrition is the key. I don't do it because of faith, but most docs won't let their kids get flu shots either. They know the negative effects.
Yes, there are some that take the faith too far for healing. There is no need for children to die because parents waited for an answered prayer. If you are an adult then do what you want for yourself, but don't cry victim when you can walk because of your weight.
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Old 10-10-2013, 10:14 AM
 
Location: Earth Wanderer, longing for the stars.
12,408 posts, read 16,481,392 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by purehuman View Post
Moderator cut: delete..how do you KNOW that's it's in the best interests of the child. Apparently the child is veeery sick after such treatment. Can the hospital (and courts) GUARANTEE that the chemo won't hasten the childs death? Can they guarantee that the child will live a long life afterwards? I doubt it. The parents should have the rights in this case to choose whatever treatment they want...it's THEIR child...if I were them I'd leave the country pronto. I don't consider religious fundamentalism to have anything to do with these parents making their own informed choice on what they feel is best for their child..I consider it a kind of social mental illness that it's seen as OK to dictate what kind of treatment someone WILL have...whether they like it or not.
Children are not the possession of the parents.
I agree that it's a narrow line between parental rights and when the state should step in.
The fact in this case is that the child had a very good chance of surviving if the treatment were started soon.
I think a lot of states are way too free with their educational mandates. I think children should be prepared as much as possible for their coming of age when they can make a choice to follow the ways of their parents or to enter the outside world. I think parents owe children that and not try to keep them as mental slaves forever tied to the old ways.
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Old 10-10-2013, 10:24 AM
 
1,263 posts, read 1,087,833 times
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So, as a parent you agree that it is up to you to decide if your children get a flu shot.

What are you going to do when the government decides it is mandatory for them to receive the shot?

Government has no business in our health care decisions. Period.
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Old 10-10-2013, 10:33 AM
 
Location: Earth Wanderer, longing for the stars.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TroutDude View Post
As do I, wholeheartedly.
Certainly. Religious fundamentalism often leads a person not to see reality for what it is. This can happen not just in the older religions, but in New Age thinking as well. There are people who believe space brothers are going to scoop them up during some Armageddon. Look at Heaven's Gate (suicide during the Hale Bopp comet episode), Andrea Yates (following her husband's idiotic dictates), Elizabeth Smart's dad (helping a stranger into his home).

It's not a clear cut situation, though. All religion requires a leap of faith. All prefer that you translate your faith into your daily life. I think the depth of faith is not a problem, but blindly following dogma is. Believing that your place of worship or holy book dictates exactly how a god wishes you to live your life. It's not the faith in the Source, but the attachment to some belief system outside of yourself. You are given YOU for a reason.
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Old 10-10-2013, 12:06 PM
 
Location: Frisco, TX
7,559 posts, read 11,897,284 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goldengrain View Post
Certainly. Religious fundamentalism often leads a person not to see reality for what it is.
And that's a good thing. While the world see darkness as reality, a believer refuses to accept it and speaks with faith, "Let there be light". As our scripture details, God "calls things which are not as though they were", and commends us for doing the same.

The world would call us nuts, but our God backs us.

Hard to believe among all the noise, but there are actually very few true believers walking the earth today. You see, the world has a conception of what is the church, what is a follower, what is religion.

But religion is defined as "a return again to bondage" - not at all what a relationship with our Creator really is. There are a few - a remnant - that know their God, and do exploits in His name.
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Old 10-10-2013, 01:25 PM
 
Location: Earth Wanderer, longing for the stars.
12,408 posts, read 16,481,392 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by little elmer View Post
And that's a good thing. While the world see darkness as reality, a believer refuses to accept it and speaks with faith, "Let there be light". As our scripture details, God "calls things which are not as though they were", and commends us for doing the same.

The world would call us nuts, but our God backs us.

Hard to believe among all the noise, but there are actually very few true believers walking the earth today. You see, the world has a conception of what is the church, what is a follower, what is religion.

But religion is defined as "a return again to bondage" - not at all what a relationship with our Creator really is. There are a few - a remnant - that know their God, and do exploits in His name.
Religion can certainly lead a believer into some bad places. I mentioned some in my posting above. Andrea Yates took seriously the command to obey her husband. She certainly should not have. Those kids would still be alive.

Mr. Smart offered Christian love to his child's abductor and allowed him access to his home. He should not have done that.

God does not always seem to back his own. Not all prayers are answered. The innocent often suffer in this world. I think it is our job to do the best we can with what we know. If there were a God, He's probably agree. Otherwise, He would not have created us with brains and curiosity and the need to learn and grow. For most people what God wants for us has progressed from the laws written down by some early tribal folks.

You know that old saying that 'God helps those who help themselves?' It's correct. You have to think for yourself and not rely on God for everything. If there is a way that offers promise that science has devised the wiser move would be to take it.

There was a time in which people would not board planes because 'If God wanted us to fly He would have given us wings' was a pretty widely accepted attitude. Just as in the law, there is the spirit of the law and the letter of the law. The spirit is the intent, and the letter tends to be the dogma. A religious person does well to recognize the difference.

Not all of man's decisions and inventions have been positive. Look at how we've destroyed the environment - but not all of our advances are bad, either, and such are many advancements in modern medicine.

I don't believe we are to lead the lives of cattle, accepting our demise and doing little to prevent it.
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Old 10-10-2013, 02:05 PM
 
Location: Frisco, TX
7,559 posts, read 11,897,284 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goldengrain View Post
Religion can certainly lead a believer into some bad places. I mentioned some in my posting above. Andrea Yates took seriously the command to obey her husband. She certainly should not have. Those kids would still be alive.

Mr. Smart offered Christian love to his child's abductor and allowed him access to his home. He should not have done that.
Andrea Yates, Dena Schlosser, etc. - they "heard" voices that stray from the nature and character of who God is. I know that's easy to say, but His word & His spirit can be known - and life, health, joy etc are His will for mankind.

Believe it, please.

Quote:
Originally Posted by goldengrain View Post
God does not always seem to back his own. Not all prayers are answered. The innocent often suffer in this world.
Of course, and that's part of the plan. As I said earlier, it's for believers to change the course of this world, but they're not answering the call.

Quote:
Originally Posted by goldengrain View Post
I think it is our job to do the best we can with what we know. If there were a God, He's probably agree. Otherwise, He would not have created us with brains and curiosity and the need to learn and grow.
That's the hard way, believe it or not. Mankind can actually band together and do wonders, but God doesn't allow him to succeed. (Gen 11 - tower of Babel)

Quote:
Originally Posted by goldengrain View Post
For most people what God wants for us has progressed from the laws written down by some early tribal folks.
The 10 commandments (now known as the ministry of death) are hardwired in men's consciousness, and it makes God out to be an old man with a baseball bat. The covenant changed 2000 years ago, but the old still dominates what people are hearing and thinking.

Quote:
Originally Posted by goldengrain View Post
You know that old saying that 'God helps those who help themselves?' It's correct.
Uh, no. It's the opposite, actually.

Quote:
Originally Posted by goldengrain View Post
You have to think for yourself and not rely on God for everything. If there is a way that offers promise that science has devised the wiser move would be to take it.
You're stuck in the natural world - life in the spirit is all God - that's His domain, and without Him we can do nothing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by goldengrain View Post
There was a time in which people would not board planes because 'If God wanted us to fly He would have given us wings' was a pretty widely accepted attitude. Just as in the law, there is the spirit of the law and the letter of the law. The spirit is the intent, and the letter tends to be the dogma. A religious person does well to recognize the difference.

Not all of man's decisions and inventions have been positive. Look at how we've destroyed the environment - but not all of our advances are bad, either, and such are many advancements in modern medicine.

I don't believe we are to lead the lives of cattle, accepting our demise and doing little to prevent it.
Agree with you on the concept, but I maintain that the life intended for the believer is far and away much higher than what they commonly know, and certainly different than what the world could conceive. He is the source of wisdom, knowledge and inspiration - but it's impossible for man to loosen his grip until he sees Who his maker really is, and what His plan for His highest creation really is.
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Old 10-10-2013, 05:04 PM
 
12,886 posts, read 15,435,478 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goldengrain View Post
Children are not the possession of the parents.
I agree that it's a narrow line between parental rights and when the state should step in.
The fact in this case is that the child had a very good chance of surviving if the treatment were started soon.
I think a lot of states are way too free with their educational mandates. I think children should be prepared as much as possible for their coming of age when they can make a choice to follow the ways of their parents or to enter the outside world. I think parents owe children that and not try to keep them as mental slaves forever tied to the old ways.
Children are also not the possessions of the state...you say the fact is that the child had a very good chance surviving if treatment were started soon. Is that a guarantee?? of course not. Is that a fact?, not really, more a hopeful guess. No one can know the facts until it's all over. Sure, children should be prepared for their "coming of age", but I sure didn't know that meant teaching them that the state knows best concerning their health, I think the opposite. Will there be compensation to the family if the chemo kills their child?..or if the child dies anyways?.....I think that if choices regarding health are FORCED on people then there should be some major compensation if it doesn't turn out the way the state predicted.
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Old 10-11-2013, 10:49 AM
 
Location: Earth Wanderer, longing for the stars.
12,408 posts, read 16,481,392 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by purehuman View Post
Children are also not the possessions of the state...you say the fact is that the child had a very good chance surviving if treatment were started soon. Is that a guarantee?? of course not. Is that a fact?, not really, more a hopeful guess. No one can know the facts until it's all over. Sure, children should be prepared for their "coming of age", but I sure didn't know that meant teaching them that the state knows best concerning their health, I think the opposite. Will there be compensation to the family if the chemo kills their child?..or if the child dies anyways?.....I think that if choices regarding health are FORCED on people then there should be some major compensation if it doesn't turn out the way the state predicted.
The state is not possessing the child. It is protecting life, pro life in my way of thinking.

The state can not take sides, favoring one religion over another. There are religions that are impartial to medical treatment and those which forbid it. In reality, all the state has is evidence by looking back at the outcomes of prior modes of treatment and medical science has won. To my way of thinking if parents deny medical treatment to their children, especially in a life or death situation, it is child abuse and the kids should be removed from the home. That's not happening, but the children, who are not old enough to choose their religion or lack thereof or to make decisions regarding the rest of their lives, should not have that opportunity taken away from them because of some belief that the parents have chosen to hold.

What the state should be doing is to keep as many options open for the children as possible.

So, they go with the probabilities, which indicate that a better outcome is more likely with medical treatment.

Adults, as long as they are not harming others, are entitled to believe in whatever hairbrained scheme that appeals to them. They are not entitled to destroy other lives because of such choices.

To the poster before yours,
Andrea Yates heard voices, sure. She was temporarily nuts because of postpartum depression, which she'd always had and it was getting worse with each child. Her doctor told her and her husband not to have any more kids because of it. Her husband said she would have as many children as god gave her. She made the stupid mistake of following her religion in that the husband was the head of the household and had the final say in decisions, so she had another kid and we all know how that turned out.

If she thought for herself as most women, even religious women, do, that would not have happened. She would have told her husband to stick it and ended up saving her kids' lives.

And regardless of WHAT that bible says, you do not open your doors to strangers who are down and out on their luck. Many times there are reasons why they are that way that you don't know of. Liz Smart's dad learned that lesson the hard way.

Religion can cloud a person's judgment and blind them to reality. People who are essentially good and struggle valiantly to do the right thing can be lead down the wrong path to their own destruction.

NEVER allow religion to get in the way of common sense.

Last edited by goldengrain; 10-11-2013 at 11:00 AM..
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Old 10-11-2013, 08:09 PM
 
12,886 posts, read 15,435,478 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goldengrain View Post
The state is not possessing the child. It is protecting life, pro life in my way of thinking.
Are they guaranteeing that the child will live?..GUARANTEE..that can be the only good reason to kidnap the child from it's home and parents...otherwise it ain't pro life or anything else...
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