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Old 10-11-2013, 08:29 PM
 
Location: Southern Oregon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by purehuman View Post
Are they guaranteeing that the child will live?..GUARANTEE..that can be the only good reason to kidnap the child from it's home and parents...otherwise it ain't pro life or anything else...
No, they are guaranteeing that if nothing is done the child will die. The numbers are on their side in this and that's all they need to have in such cases.
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Old 10-11-2013, 10:01 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by purehuman View Post
Are they guaranteeing that the child will live?..GUARANTEE..that can be the only good reason to kidnap the child from it's home and parents...otherwise it ain't pro life or anything else...
Quote:
Originally Posted by nateswift View Post
No, they are guaranteeing that if nothing is done the child will die. The numbers are on their side in this and that's all they need to have in such cases.
This is correct. Parents do not have the right to endanger their children for their beliefs, period. Clear and present danger is sufficient cause to intervene.
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Old 10-15-2013, 11:57 AM
 
Location: Earth Wanderer, longing for the stars.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by purehuman View Post
Are they guaranteeing that the child will live?..GUARANTEE..that can be the only good reason to kidnap the child from it's home and parents...otherwise it ain't pro life or anything else...
We are ALL guaranteed death, aren't we? How long we live can only be approximated through probabilities, but you are smart enough to already know that. I think you are?

If there is a high probability of life with medical intervention and a low probability of life if there is no intervention, which way is the path of the greater wisdom?
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Old 10-16-2013, 09:28 AM
 
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I'm just trying to say that just because some people really do believe that chemo may save them...some don't. Everyone should have the choice to decide for themselves. As parents of the child, they are responsible for her well being...they've seen first hand the illness and sickness their child must suffer during chemo. They should have the right to say no more...even if it disagrees with what some others think...The "high probability of life with medical intervention" you speak of ,says nothing of the quality of that life, and is an assumption at best.....Zambia : Why 75% of doctors would refuse chemotherapy on themselves
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Old 10-16-2013, 09:45 AM
 
Location: Southern Oregon
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I went through chemo and radiation and nobody is going to say that it is a walk in the park, but I have been enjoying cancer free, normal life for a few years and am totally thankful for the opportunity that was given me. What you say ^ has some merit in that the prognosis and the treatment should be balanced. If all chemo can do is buy a few months more suffering, then there is a real choice. If there is a good chance for a normal life after treatment, then that is an entirely different choice.
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Old 10-16-2013, 06:26 PM
 
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Don't you think that if a Doc says there's "a good chance" for a normal life after treatment, it means just that...a good [chance]...how many people have heard that, and died anyways...that "chance", that some want to take, should be their own choice as well...cause there's always a chance that the chemo could kill you, always a chance that you won't live any longer anyways...always a chance that you would live longer without it.
nateswift, I'm glad you made it....how would you feel if you were forced against your will to take that chemo...like it or not. Would you appreciate that?
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Old 10-18-2013, 09:17 AM
 
Location: Earth Wanderer, longing for the stars.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by purehuman View Post
I'm just trying to say that just because some people really do believe that chemo may save them...some don't. Everyone should have the choice to decide for themselves. As parents of the child, they are responsible for her well being...they've seen first hand the illness and sickness their child must suffer during chemo. They should have the right to say no more...even if it disagrees with what some others think...The "high probability of life with medical intervention" you speak of ,says nothing of the quality of that life, and is an assumption at best.....Zambia : Why 75% of doctors would refuse chemotherapy on themselves
I can probably get a few doctors who believe that they've been on an alien spaceship, too.

Yes, you are entitled to your beliefs, but not to impose them on others.

Children do not have the full rights of an adult, but they DO have some rights, and one is to reasonably expect that their parents will make logical decisions regarding the child's health.

Your beliefs are not a valid argument against science and statistics. Beliefs are not the same as facts. I may believe that I can fly but science proves that gravity will not allow it. I can still believe it all I want, but not to the extent that I can push my kid off a cliff.
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Old 10-18-2013, 09:20 AM
 
Location: Earth Wanderer, longing for the stars.
12,408 posts, read 16,469,292 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by purehuman View Post
Don't you think that if a Doc says there's "a good chance" for a normal life after treatment, it means just that...a good [chance]...how many people have heard that, and died anyways...that "chance", that some want to take, should be their own choice as well...cause there's always a chance that the chemo could kill you, always a chance that you won't live any longer anyways...always a chance that you would live longer without it.
nateswift, I'm glad you made it....how would you feel if you were forced against your will to take that chemo...like it or not. Would you appreciate that?
No, no. The doctor says that with treatment there is a 70% chance of survival and a normal life, without treatment there is a 95% probability of death. Which do you think is preferable?

You see, with actual numbers you can make a logical decision. Every cancer patient that I know of has been given that sort of decision, not something based on an individual doctor's gut instinct.
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Old 10-18-2013, 09:51 AM
 
Location: Southern Oregon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goldengrain View Post
No, no. The doctor says that with treatment there is a 70% chance of survival and a normal life, without treatment there is a 95% probability of death. Which do you think is preferable?

You see, with actual numbers you can make a logical decision. Every cancer patient that I know of has been given that sort of decision, not something based on an individual doctor's gut instinct.
And the point here is that the parents are making a decision for a minor NOT based on those chances, but on a religious conviction. The state does have an interest in the welfare of its citizens and it can't be based on religion, therefore the numbers dictate over-riding the conviction of the parents in a case where the child is not legally responsible.
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Old 10-18-2013, 02:50 PM
 
Location: Earth Wanderer, longing for the stars.
12,408 posts, read 16,469,292 times
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There are many cases in which religious fundamentalism is a mental illness. People are operating under a false and imagined system of suppositions and it does not bother them at all that their system does not gel with reality. They start thinking that all systems are the same although some have no basis in fact. It would be nice, mostly everyone believes, if ailments could just be prayed away, but that's not the case.
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