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Old 10-09-2013, 03:14 PM
 
9,984 posts, read 6,789,122 times
Reputation: 5613

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Look. Praying with saints and asking for their intercession, or angels intercession,
or the Blessed Mother's intercession is NOT necromancy. Having a dream about
your father in which you felt he spoke to you is NOT conjuring spirits.
Hope this helps.
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Old 10-09-2013, 04:10 PM
 
400 posts, read 453,899 times
Reputation: 50
This has veered so far off topic. The OP mentioned nothing about praying to the dead, and/or praying for the dead but on communing with the dead which is what Father Concetti is talking about. Praying for God's care of my dearly departed Aunt Matilda is certainly different than praying to Aunt Matilda to put in a good word for me with God, and is definitely different than Aunt Matilda whispering in my ear that all is well with her on the other side.
Father Concetti: ‘According to modern catechizing, God
permits our dear disappeared living in an extraterrestrial sphere to send
messages in order to guide us in certain moments of our lives. Following new
discoveries made in the field of the psychology of the paranormal, the Church
decided to no longer forbid experiments endeavouring dialogues with the
deceased, subject to the condition that they be carried out with a serious
scientific and religious objective
.

Question: ‘Doesn’t this convey to us
a new theological concept on communication with the Beyond?’ 

Father Concetti: ‘Everything proceeds from the idea
that the Church is one sole organism with JESUS CHRIST as its Lord. This
organism composes of the living men forming the people of believers on earth, of
the saints and elect who are in paradise in the peace of spirit, as well as of
the souls who have to expiate their sins in purgatory. These three dimensions
are not only connected with Jesus, but – in conformity with the notion
'Communion of Saints’ – also with each other, is to say, communication is
feasible.’ 

Question: ‘In what way have these contacts to be
carried through according to the Church’s doctrines?’ 

Father Concetti:’The messages can be transmitted not
only by words or tones, say by the human mind’s normal means of communication,
but also through signs, as, for example, by dreams, which occasionally may even
be precognitive, or by spiritual impulses that permeate our mind. These impulses
may transform into visions, images, and concepts.’ 

Question: ‘Does everybody have this perceptive
faculty?’ 

Father Concetti C.: ‘Those who frequently perceive
these phenomena are sensitive, that means persons who have an excellent
sensitiveness for the signals coming from the other world. I speak of the
mediums and clairvoyants, but also of normal persons who can have extraordinary
perceptions, a special dream, a strange sign, a sudden enlightenment, and of
those who, unlike the sensitives, succeed only in rare cases in interpreting
what they receive.’ 

Question: ’Does the Church allow to address to those
called sensitives, or mediums, for an interpretation of the phenomena?’ 

Father Concetti: ‘Yes, the Church permits to apply to
these special persons, but to use great care, and subject to certain conditions.
The sensitives whom one should consult – also if they perform their experiments
by using modern techniques – should be inspired with belief. Under this aspect,
preference should be given to priests. The Church forbids all contacts of
believers with those who, with the contacts with the Beyond, practise idolatry,
magical invocation of deceased, necromancy, superstition, and esotericism, (say)
all these occult procedures that incite the denial of God and the
sacraments.’ 

Question: 'What motives does a believer have to follow
in order to enter into a dialogue with the dead?’ 

Father Concetti: 'It is necessary that a dialogue with
the dead be aspired to only in urgent cases, for example in case somebody has
lost his father, his mother, his son, or spouse under dramatic circumstances and
is not capable of reconciling himself to the separation. A contact with the soul
of a loved one is able to soothe a mind convulsed by such a tragical event. One
may also turn to the dead when a difficult existential problem has to be solved.
Generally, our ancestors help us, and they never send messages that could be
harmful.'

Question: 'What way of behaviour has to be avoided
during mediumistic contacts?’ 

Father Concetti: 'One shall not play with the souls of
the deceased. One shall not call for them for futile reasons, for instance in
order to get the winning number of a lottery. It is as well appropriate to
critically distinguish the signals coming from the Beyond, and one shall not
overvalue them. By doing so, one would addict to credulity. Overmore, one should
not approach the mediums and phenomena without the power of belief. Otherwise
one would dally with the danger of losing one’s psychical balance, and even sink
into demoniac obsession. Exorcists still continue to report of thousands who, in
consequence of their participation in spiritistic séances, are tormented by
demons.’ 
'For the Catholic Church, contacts with the Beyond are
feasible, and a person who communicates with the world of the deceased in the
light of belief, does not commit any sin.'
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Old 10-09-2013, 04:11 PM
 
8,122 posts, read 7,102,937 times
Reputation: 1441
See the Catholic church adopted the Apocrypha in the scriptures which supports the praying to the saints , which they canonized some 500 years ago to support the belief ................ Where in the Old Testament on Deuteronomy 18:11-12....``Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or wizard, or a necromancer....for all that do these things are a abomination to the Lord , and because of these abominations the Lord your God will drive them out from before you..``.............. Then in 1 Samuel 28: 1-25..... the prophet Samuel had died , and the King Saul went to a women who had a familiar spirit which he got her to conjure up the dead Samuel which she did a was bad news all around as God abandoned Saul and his kingdom ,.................. where in 1 Chronicles 10: 13-14.....``So Saul died for his transgressions which he committed against the Lord , even against the Word of the Lord , which he kept not, and also for asking counsel of one that had a familiar spirit , to inquire of it ... And inquired not of the Lord , therefore he slew him , and turned the kingdom to David the son of Jesse..``................... See the Bible here says that talking to the dead is incantation to familiar spirits
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Old 10-09-2013, 04:59 PM
 
9,913 posts, read 6,777,129 times
Reputation: 2491
Quote:
Originally Posted by bartstarr1960 View Post
This has veered so far off topic. The OP mentioned nothing about praying to the dead, and/or praying for the dead but on communing with the dead which is what Father Concetti is talking about. Praying for God's care of my dearly departed Aunt Matilda is certainly different than praying to Aunt Matilda to put in a good word for me with God, and is definitely different than Aunt Matilda whispering in my ear that all is well with her on the other side.
Father Concetti: ‘According to modern catechizing, God
permits our dear disappeared living in an extraterrestrial sphere to send
messages in order to guide us in certain moments of our lives. Following new
discoveries made in the field of the psychology of the paranormal, the Church
decided to no longer forbid experiments endeavouring dialogues with the
deceased, subject to the condition that they be carried out with a serious
scientific and religious objective
.

Question: ‘Doesn’t this convey to us
a new theological concept on communication with the Beyond?’ 

Father Concetti: ‘Everything proceeds from the idea
that the Church is one sole organism with JESUS CHRIST as its Lord. This
organism composes of the living men forming the people of believers on earth, of
the saints and elect who are in paradise in the peace of spirit, as well as of
the souls who have to expiate their sins in purgatory. These three dimensions
are not only connected with Jesus, but – in conformity with the notion
'Communion of Saints’ – also with each other, is to say, communication is
feasible.’ 

Question: ‘In what way have these contacts to be
carried through according to the Church’s doctrines?’ 

Father Concetti:’The messages can be transmitted not
only by words or tones, say by the human mind’s normal means of communication,
but also through signs, as, for example, by dreams, which occasionally may even
be precognitive, or by spiritual impulses that permeate our mind. These impulses
may transform into visions, images, and concepts.’ 

Question: ‘Does everybody have this perceptive
faculty?’ 

Father Concetti C.: ‘Those who frequently perceive
these phenomena are sensitive, that means persons who have an excellent
sensitiveness for the signals coming from the other world. I speak of the
mediums and clairvoyants, but also of normal persons who can have extraordinary
perceptions, a special dream, a strange sign, a sudden enlightenment, and of
those who, unlike the sensitives, succeed only in rare cases in interpreting
what they receive.’ 

Question: ’Does the Church allow to address to those
called sensitives, or mediums, for an interpretation of the phenomena?’ 

Father Concetti: ‘Yes, the Church permits to apply to
these special persons, but to use great care, and subject to certain conditions.
The sensitives whom one should consult – also if they perform their experiments
by using modern techniques – should be inspired with belief. Under this aspect,
preference should be given to priests. The Church forbids all contacts of
believers with those who, with the contacts with the Beyond, practise idolatry,
magical invocation of deceased, necromancy, superstition, and esotericism, (say)
all these occult procedures that incite the denial of God and the
sacraments.’ 

Question: 'What motives does a believer have to follow
in order to enter into a dialogue with the dead?’ 

Father Concetti: 'It is necessary that a dialogue with
the dead be aspired to only in urgent cases, for example in case somebody has
lost his father, his mother, his son, or spouse under dramatic circumstances and
is not capable of reconciling himself to the separation. A contact with the soul
of a loved one is able to soothe a mind convulsed by such a tragical event. One
may also turn to the dead when a difficult existential problem has to be solved.
Generally, our ancestors help us, and they never send messages that could be
harmful.'

Question: 'What way of behaviour has to be avoided
during mediumistic contacts?’ 

Father Concetti: 'One shall not play with the souls of
the deceased. One shall not call for them for futile reasons, for instance in
order to get the winning number of a lottery. It is as well appropriate to
critically distinguish the signals coming from the Beyond, and one shall not
overvalue them. By doing so, one would addict to credulity. Overmore, one should
not approach the mediums and phenomena without the power of belief. Otherwise
one would dally with the danger of losing one’s psychical balance, and even sink
into demoniac obsession. Exorcists still continue to report of thousands who, in
consequence of their participation in spiritistic séances, are tormented by
demons.’ 
'For the Catholic Church, contacts with the Beyond are
feasible, and a person who communicates with the world of the deceased in the
light of belief, does not commit any sin.'
This seems to be the opinion of one person. I don't believe the RCC endorses the concept of dead people whispering in the ears of folks. That in itself would be a hallucination.


Nice try!

OTOH, praying to saints is simply part of traditions passed down since the onset of Christianity.
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Old 10-09-2013, 05:01 PM
 
11,305 posts, read 11,319,826 times
Reputation: 3489
Quote:
Originally Posted by bartstarr1960 View Post
This has veered so far off topic. The OP mentioned nothing about praying to the dead, and/or praying for the dead but on communing with the dead which is what Father Concetti is talking about. Praying for God's care of my dearly departed Aunt Matilda is certainly different than praying to Aunt Matilda to put in a good word for me with God, and is definitely different than Aunt Matilda whispering in my ear that all is well with her on the other side.
Father Concetti: ‘According to modern catechizing, God
permits our dear disappeared living in an extraterrestrial sphere to send
messages in order to guide us in certain moments of our lives. Following new
discoveries made in the field of the psychology of the paranormal, the Church
decided to no longer forbid experiments endeavouring dialogues with the
deceased, subject to the condition that they be carried out with a serious
scientific and religious objective
.

Question: ‘Doesn’t this convey to us
a new theological concept on communication with the Beyond?’ 

Father Concetti: ‘Everything proceeds from the idea
that the Church is one sole organism with JESUS CHRIST as its Lord. This
organism composes of the living men forming the people of believers on earth, of
the saints and elect who are in paradise in the peace of spirit, as well as of
the souls who have to expiate their sins in purgatory. These three dimensions
are not only connected with Jesus, but – in conformity with the notion
'Communion of Saints’ – also with each other, is to say, communication is
feasible.’ 

Question: ‘In what way have these contacts to be
carried through according to the Church’s doctrines?’ 

Father Concetti:’The messages can be transmitted not
only by words or tones, say by the human mind’s normal means of communication,
but also through signs, as, for example, by dreams, which occasionally may even
be precognitive, or by spiritual impulses that permeate our mind. These impulses
may transform into visions, images, and concepts.’ 

Question: ‘Does everybody have this perceptive
faculty?’ 

Father Concetti C.: ‘Those who frequently perceive
these phenomena are sensitive, that means persons who have an excellent
sensitiveness for the signals coming from the other world. I speak of the
mediums and clairvoyants, but also of normal persons who can have extraordinary
perceptions, a special dream, a strange sign, a sudden enlightenment, and of
those who, unlike the sensitives, succeed only in rare cases in interpreting
what they receive.’ 

Question: ’Does the Church allow to address to those
called sensitives, or mediums, for an interpretation of the phenomena?’ 

Father Concetti: ‘Yes, the Church permits to apply to
these special persons, but to use great care, and subject to certain conditions.
The sensitives whom one should consult – also if they perform their experiments
by using modern techniques – should be inspired with belief. Under this aspect,
preference should be given to priests. The Church forbids all contacts of
believers with those who, with the contacts with the Beyond, practise idolatry,
magical invocation of deceased, necromancy, superstition, and esotericism, (say)
all these occult procedures that incite the denial of God and the
sacraments.’ 

Question: 'What motives does a believer have to follow
in order to enter into a dialogue with the dead?’ 

Father Concetti: 'It is necessary that a dialogue with
the dead be aspired to only in urgent cases, for example in case somebody has
lost his father, his mother, his son, or spouse under dramatic circumstances and
is not capable of reconciling himself to the separation. A contact with the soul
of a loved one is able to soothe a mind convulsed by such a tragical event. One
may also turn to the dead when a difficult existential problem has to be solved.
Generally, our ancestors help us, and they never send messages that could be
harmful.'

Question: 'What way of behaviour has to be avoided
during mediumistic contacts?’ 

Father Concetti: 'One shall not play with the souls of
the deceased. One shall not call for them for futile reasons, for instance in
order to get the winning number of a lottery. It is as well appropriate to
critically distinguish the signals coming from the Beyond, and one shall not
overvalue them. By doing so, one would addict to credulity. Overmore, one should
not approach the mediums and phenomena without the power of belief. Otherwise
one would dally with the danger of losing one’s psychical balance, and even sink
into demoniac obsession. Exorcists still continue to report of thousands who, in
consequence of their participation in spiritistic séances, are tormented by
demons.’ 
'For the Catholic Church, contacts with the Beyond are
feasible, and a person who communicates with the world of the deceased in the
light of belief, does not commit any sin.'
Thanks so much for getting this topic back onto track, bartstarr and what you say bears repeating. If only those naysayers here would take a few minutes to read it instead of glossing over the first few lines and deciding they don't like what it says and jumping ahead. I don't condone using mediums, clairvoyants, spiritualists, etc. and getting involved in having spirits possibly taking over my psyche. I don't believe in demons (fallen angels and satan) but I do believe there are malevolent spirits of deceased people who have evil intentions and best not to monkey with them. But there are good spirits out there too who have nothing but the best wishes and intentions for us and sad to say a few rotten apples spoil the bunch.

But if demons can use Jesus' name and disguise themselves as angels of light and even praise God in order to deceive us, then how on earth are we supposed to test them? The Bible says any spirit (or is it anyone) who does not acknowledge Jesus is come in the flesh is antichrist, but apparently these demons can pretty much say anything the HS can say.

In theory, if a spirit is benevolent and makes contact I see nothing wrong with communicating with it. But the means of bringing these spirits forward (ouija boards, etc.) can be pretty risky, IMHO.
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Old 10-09-2013, 06:45 PM
Status: "Watching America made small." (set 12 days ago)
 
Location: Ontario, Canada
26,014 posts, read 13,516,574 times
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If what you feel/think makes sense to you and feels right - go with it.

If not - go away from it.
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Old 10-09-2013, 11:57 PM
 
870 posts, read 668,524 times
Reputation: 217
Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian658 View Post
Jesus said, this is my body.

BTW, can I ask you a few questions?

Are you aware that the issue of Intercession and Invocation of the Saints goes back to early Christianity?

Are you aware that the Catholic Church decided which books to include in the canon of the NT?

Why are you unable to celebrate the differences between religions?
Julian, thank you. You are a true defender of the faith. For Jesus's presence, turn to John 6 and you will see Jesus stating twice that those who do not eat his flesh and blood will have no life in them. After Jesus says it once, people walk away, like Vizio. Jesus has a chance to soften His stance, but instead, repeats his first statement. In addition, the writings of the early Church Fathers bear witness to early Christianity s belief in the real presence. It is the Protestants who have strayed from early Christianity, not the Catholics.
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Old 10-10-2013, 12:43 AM
 
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Reputation: 5949
I am taking a course in church history now and in the early church when the Christians were being persecuted the Romans would use the fake accusation of cannibalism against Christians saying they believed in it and even ate babies in their services. They did not want their people to convert and made up these stories. The Romans were brutal people and it was a very brutal time but they could not bear cannibalism. That was even too much for them to take. They used it against Christians to persecute them.

But Jesus did say it was His body and blood not a representation of His body and blood but it is under the form of a host. To us it looks different than a real body and real blood but spiritually it is truly Jesus' body, blood, soul and divinity we are consuming. Jesus said it so we believe it, Jesus can't lie.
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Old 10-10-2013, 01:03 AM
Zur
 
949 posts, read 651,417 times
Reputation: 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowball7 View Post
This is old. Here is a more descriptive article on it from 1999.
You'll see how Fr. Concetti makes a clear distinction concerning
the manner in which communion with the dead occurs.
Vatican Spokesman

For example, it's ok to ask for a saint to intercede for you, it's ok for
you to have an inspirational dream about your deceased loved one,
and feel they are communicating with you, etc..
It is not, however, ok to "raise spirits" as mediums do, or Ouija boards, etc.
That opens spiritual doors to evil, from within and without.
Thus, the Church is not trespassing on the Biblical admonition against
necromancy.
I agree, it is OK to have a dream from God about the deceased loved ones. I had myself such a dream. I had also an open vision, that means I was totally conscience, when I had a visitation. This was an answer of a prayer, where I asked God to proof to me, that He is the creator of Heaven and earth, the true God.
But why to ask for an intercession through a saint, when the bible says Jesus is the intercessor. Why not follow the bible and choose the direct way. Why to think there is a better way than through Jesus. Idolatry begins when we put not God first.
In the interview that is presented in this thread, the church allows also the contact through a medium. They know that it is dangerous, therefore they advise to do it through a priest or bishop. They think their clergy is holy (priests are soooo holy, when they go to a nun, it is no sin). The interview shows that the church is trespassing against necromancy.
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Old 10-10-2013, 01:27 AM
Zur
 
949 posts, read 651,417 times
Reputation: 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by TroutDude View Post
It amazes me that you folks manage to sleep at all, what with all these things you're afraid of.
I am not afraid of anything so long the Lord is with me (Ps 23). I have read of some Atheist, that got very fearful on their dead bed. I hope you do not even worry about the future, because every day has his own trials. Jesus said, be of good cheer, He overcame this world, with Him we will overcome, not one day, but every day.
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