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Old 10-11-2013, 10:35 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Julian658 View Post
Vizio:

The Bible is the word of God as interpreted by men. The true word of God in the holy spirit and we get there by reasoning.

The words in the bible are a great guide, but they are simply not enough and at times misleading.

At the same time there are brilliant passages about what is like to be a good Christian. Ideally, we should focus on how to be good Christians and ignore the barbaric prose that does not make sense.
Okay, specifically what books, passages, verses of The Bible should we use and what should we reject?
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Old 10-11-2013, 11:33 AM
 
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Originally Posted by bartstarr1960 View Post
Okay, specifically what books, passages, verses of The Bible should we use and what should we reject?
That was decided by the RCC a long time ago.


I would never read the verses about the concubine that was raped many times over. It has little liturgical value.
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Old 10-11-2013, 12:25 PM
 
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Originally Posted by allenk893 View Post
Their not having a conversation with the deceased. Their having a conversation with a demon. If they were reading their Bibles, they would know that.
That's a lot of hogwash. There's no such things as demons. Has anyone here or anyone you know ever seen or had contact, even remotely, with a demon?

No????

I didn't think so.

The deceased who contact humans speak benevolently, lovingly to us and have nothing but the utmost reverence for Jesus. That's not any kind of demon I'd want in my legions if I were satan.

All that demonology stuff was added to the gospels by the RCC back in the 5th century to scare people away from contacting the dead because the church leaders were afraid of losing control of the masses if they started going directly to the source instead of coming to them for their spiritual needs.
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Old 10-11-2013, 01:31 PM
 
21,925 posts, read 16,727,596 times
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Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
That's a lot of hogwash. There's no such things as demons. Has anyone here or anyone you know ever seen or had contact, even remotely, with a demon?

No????

I didn't think so.

The deceased who contact humans speak benevolently, lovingly to us and have nothing but the utmost reverence for Jesus. That's not any kind of demon I'd want in my legions if I were satan.

All that demonology stuff was added to the gospels by the RCC back in the 5th century to scare people away from contacting the dead because the church leaders were afraid of losing control of the masses if they started going directly to the source instead of coming to them for their spiritual needs.
You claim, and without any supporting evidence, that the Roman Catholic Church added ''all that demonology stuff'' in the 5th century.

However, in the 2nd century, around 170-175 AD, an Assyrian Christian named Tatian composed the first known gospel harmony called the 'Diatessaron' in which the four gospel accounts are woven together into one continuous and coherent account. He of course used existing manuscript copies. Section 6:40 of the Diatessaron says;
40 And he taught them on the sabbaths. And they wondered because of his doctrine: for his word was as if it were authoritative. And there was in the synagogue a man with an unclean devil, and he cried out with a loud voice, and said, Let me alone; what have I to do with thee, thou Jesus of Nazareth? art thou come for our destruction? I know thee who thou art, thou Holy One of God. And Jesus rebuked him, and said, Stop up thy mouth, and come out of him. And the demon threw him in the midst and came out of him, having done him no harm. And great amaze- Arabic, ment took hold upon every man. And they talked one with another, and said, What is this word that orders the unclean spirits with power and authority, and they come out? And the news of him spread abroad in all the region which was around them. Diatessaron. The Diatessaron (translation Roberts-Donaldson).
That is taken from Mark 1:23-28 or Luke 4:31-37.


In his Dialogue with Trypho (c. 150-160 AD), Justin Martyr mentions demons in chapter 30.
Moreover, it is also manifest to all, that we who believe in Him pray to be kept by Him from strange, i.e., from wicked and deceitful, spirits; as the word of prophecy, personating one of those who believe in Him, figuratively declares. For we do continually beseech God by Jesus Christ to preserve us from the demons which are hostile to the worship of God, and whom we of old time served, in order that, after our conversion by Him to God, we may be blameless. For we call Him Helper and Redeemer, the power of whose name even the demons do fear; and at this day, when they are exorcised in the name of Jesus Christ, crucified under Pontius Pilate, governor of Judaea, they are overcome. And thus it is manifest to all, that His Father has given Him so great power, by virtue of which demons are subdued to His name, and to the dispensation of His suffering. Saint Justin Martyr: Dialogue with Trypho (Roberts-Donaldson)

And in his 'Apology,' Estimated Range of Dating: 197-220 A.D Tertullian writes in chapter 27;
For, though the whole power of demons and kindred spirits is subject to us, yet still, as ill-disposed slaves sometimes conjoin contumacy with fear, and delight to injure those of whom they at the same time stand in awe, so is it here. For fear also inspires hatred. Besides, in their desperate condition, as already under condemnation, it gives them some comfort, while punishment delays, to have the usufruct of their malignant dispositions. http://earlychristianwritings.com/te...tullian01.html

As you can see from these writings of the early church, your claim that references to demons were added to the NT at a later date by the Roman Catholic church is not valid. Furthermore, it is not likely that the Roman Catholic church could have gotten their hands on all existing manuscripts which contain the gospel accounts.


Demons, which most likely are the fallen angels, are real, they do influence affairs in human history, and it is possible to be in contact with them through occultic activities.

And like it or not, God has forbidden attempts to contact the dead. The Bible makes this clear.

Last edited by Mike555; 10-11-2013 at 02:51 PM..
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Old 10-11-2013, 04:23 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
As you can see from these writings of the early church, your claim that references to demons were added to the NT at a later date by the Roman Catholic church is not valid. Furthermore, it is not likely that the Roman Catholic church could have gotten their hands on all existing manuscripts which contain the gospel accounts.
Mike, you mean the 5600+ Greek and the 19,000 or so Syrian, Coptic, Latin, and Aramic NT manuscripts, not to mention the originals, aren't locked in a Vatican vault?
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Old 10-12-2013, 03:50 AM
Zur
 
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Originally Posted by Julian658 View Post
I have not seen the endorsement of listening to the voices of the dead in the Catechism of the RCC. If you can find it I would love to see it.

Asking the virgin and saints to pray for us is ONE line during mass, no more.

If ignorant Catholics talk to the dead they are hallucinating. No different that those Protestants that see demons everywhere.

Father Concetti maybe a waco. That in itself means nothing.
If the bible and the Catechism does say nothing about the dead speaking to us, can it be , because it is not possible? and if they cannot, than no human can speak to them! There is simply no line. If you say, talking to the dead is hallucination, then what you do at mass is just that, Mary and the saints are dead. Demons and Satan himself are real, therefore God gave us His word to protect us, if your church would follow the instructions, it would be better for Catholics. I think Catholic faith believes that demons and Satan are real, it is your hallucination that they are not real. Jesus had an conversation with Satan, you think that was also an hallucination?
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Old 10-12-2013, 09:28 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Zur View Post
If the bible and the Catechism does say nothing about the dead speaking to us, can it be , because it is not possible? and if they cannot, than no human can speak to them! There is simply no line. If you say, talking to the dead is hallucination, then what you do at mass is just that, Mary and the saints are dead. Demons and Satan himself are real, therefore God gave us His word to protect us, if your church would follow the instructions, it would be better for Catholics. I think Catholic faith believes that demons and Satan are real, it is your hallucination that they are not real. Jesus had an conversation with Satan, you think that was also an hallucination?
Asking the Virgin and saints to pray for us is a tradition of early Christianity. It is moot whether the saints can hear or not. That is not the point of prayer. In fact, most prayers to Jesus are unanswered, otherwise there would be no misery among Christians.

A big part of Christianity is tradition. There is no need for 100% accuracy. We celebrate Christmas on Dec 25. Who cares if jesus was born on another date. The point is to have a ritual to become better Christians.


The act of praying is for the benefit of the person doing the prayer. After prayer the person feels better regardless of who hears or does not hear the prayer. As I said most prayers are not answered.

Asking the Virgin and Saints to pray for us is cultural and way less wacky that believing in demons.

The RCC is the original Christian church and the instructions come from the RCC.
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Old 10-13-2013, 03:47 AM
 
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Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
That's a lot of hogwash. There's no such things as demons. Has anyone here or anyone you know ever seen or had contact, even remotely, with a demon?
I've been attacked by demons before. Luckily, I have serious protection by God. Big angels on my side. I've been protected most of my life. That's a result of having been raised in a praying family. I thank God for that because we've never dealt with any of the stuff we've heard and read about like demon possession (which the Bible talks about). You should thank God that you never dealt with anything like that either.
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Old 10-13-2013, 07:44 AM
 
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Originally Posted by allenk893 View Post
I've been attacked by demons before. Luckily, I have serious protection by God. Big angels on my side. I've been protected most of my life. That's a result of having been raised in a praying family. I thank God for that because we've never dealt with any of the stuff we've heard and read about like demon possession (which the Bible talks about). You should thank God that you never dealt with anything like that either.
Can you describe the demons? How big are they? Is it true they have horns and are red in color? DO they have a tail? What language do they speak? What sort of powers do they have over you?
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Old 10-13-2013, 08:55 AM
Zur
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian658 View Post
Asking the Virgin and saints to pray for us is a tradition of early Christianity. It is moot whether the saints can hear or not. That is not the point of prayer. In fact, most prayers to Jesus are unanswered, otherwise there would be no misery among Christians.

A big part of Christianity is tradition. There is no need for 100% accuracy. We celebrate Christmas on Dec 25. Who cares if jesus was born on another date. The point is to have a ritual to become better Christians.


The act of praying is for the benefit of the person doing the prayer. After prayer the person feels better regardless of who hears or does not hear the prayer. As I said most prayers are not answered.

Asking the Virgin and Saints to pray for us is cultural and way less wacky that believing in demons.

The RCC is the original Christian church and the instructions come from the RCC.
The RCC is not nor was my church, I am Catholic, Protestant, Baptist, Pentecost and Charismatic in my faith. My foundation is a relationship with Jesus Christ, led by the Holy Spirit and obeying the word of God.
Your faith is very much influenced from a religious brainwash as a child, that blinds you to the truth. Jesus Christ did not founded any church, when He walked on earth. His church was the synagogue. The Holy Spirit came and the original church was founded, but this was not the RCC. She was founded in the 4th century under Constantin not by the power of the Holy Spirit but by the Roman worldly power. Many conversions were forced, no faith was necessary. Baptism saved them by becoming members of the RCC, that is another gospel.
Later Mary became co- redeemer with Christ, what the RCC made out of Mary every one can read from former Catholics, they know it better than I do.
Demons are real, there are too many that can witness this fact. I have seen them with my natural eyes, that means they manifested physical and also with my spiritual eyes that means the Holy Spirit showed me them for a purpose. Only witches see them all the time, and they fight each other. Also drugs can open the spiritual world. Some told me of their experiences. In Christ we have authority over demons, I have driven out many out of believers, some with manifestations.
I am not celebrating Christmas nor Easter. If anyone does it is OK with me. But for the truth I celebrate not the pagan feast of the RCC, but the feasts of the Lord in the bible. Jesus Christ was crucified on the 14th of Nisan and rose 3 days and 3 nights later on the 17th of Nisan, and that has nothing to do with Good Friday nor resurrection Sunday, another fraud of the RCC.
To follow the instructions of the RCC can be dangerous, because they are not all according to the word of God. There are Catholics that do not follow the Vatican. Every one that does, will give account before God, no one has an excuse, God has given us His word, according the word of God we will be judged and not by the traditions of men. But praise God for His grace, I hope His grace is greater than the ignorance of believers, but that is just hope, better to pray that God opens the eyes of the blind.
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