Calvanism.. states we have the choices to do wrong, but that the "want to" is enslaved to our sinful inclination

[Vizio]

Originally Posted by thrillobyte

Actually, Vizio, I was being very generous.



List of Christian denominations - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

But this is beside the point. What I was trying to establish is that if the Bible is the go-to book--the one that purportedly contains all the answers to questions anyone who wanted to become a Christian would ask, then why the overwhelming differences in doctrine that such an astonishing number of different sects within Christianity that uses that one official text, the "Bible", if you will, could come into existence?

My question has more to do with the assumption that any sincere person who earnestly desired to know the truth would be given the truth as it is written in the Bible



So here we have God's conditional promise that He will give us wisdom to know what the truth is. Consequently there would be no extreme differences of opinion on such matters as eternal destiny (ET vs UR vs annihilation), or OSAS vs losing salvation, or faith alone vs faith plus works vs work w/o faith, or TULIP vs TUIP vs TULLIP. These are just a sprinkle of the tons of differences between each of these 41,000 Christian sects.

So what gives, Vizio? Where does the Bible fail? Or does it? And if it doesn't, why the discrepancies?

As to the second part of your question, I reiterate "no faith on earth has the number of varieties that Christianity does--not even close". I am not a non-Christian. I believe Jesus is the Son of God and that He died to free me from the consequences of my sin, as he frees everyone. So I am not asking this question as a challenge to Christianity and Jesus. But I do ask as to the claim that the Bible is so inerrant and so perfectly God's voice to us that it cannot possibly fail to give correct answers to anything anyone can ask.

I didnt count the denominations and other religions on that page, but there wasnt anywhere close to that many.

[nateswift]

Originally Posted by Mikelee81

Differences between Semi-Pelagianism and Arminian Beliefs

Here's a good article..

Correct doctrine eliminates boasting.. nothing "I" have done got me saved.. So the Calvanistic doctrine of Monergism must be correct.

By me, boasting of our part in salvation would be like a person overboard in a stormy sea who is thrown a life fing and pulled in saying, "WOW! Did you see the way I hung onto that life ring? Wasn't I great?"

Just goes to show you that the Holy Book is just a pile of ambiguity derived from redaction and human ignorance.

[thrillobyte]

Originally Posted by bartstarr1960

Hey Thrillobyte, here are some thoughts on predestination from early in church history.

A veritable "grab-bag" of dogmas with the emphasis on "dog". Pick your poison. But what if you pick the wrong one? Stoke the furnaces.

[bartstarr1960]

Originally Posted by thrillobyte

Doesn't anybody find it strange that Christianity is the only religion on earth that is made up of over 30,000 different varieties of beliefs? I find that utterly astonishing and I know I shouldn't, given how totally corrupted the modern Bible has become. Nobody can agree on anything when supposedly all the answers to your questions are lying right there in that book waiting to be answered. Just depends on who's doing the asking and what answer they want to be given them.

I think we could whittle that number down a bit, but that's another topic. There really aren't 30,000 different beliefs, but instead many different subdivisions of theologically biblical interpretation conclusions. I don't think any of the great theologians journeyed out on the premise of making The Bible fit their preconcieved interpretations, but instead searched The Bible and developed their interpretations. Humans are imperfect and not beyond the pitfalls belying man. I disagree that "nobody can agree on anything." The main theological considerations are pretty much the same across the board, except for perhaps some whacked out thinkings no one credits anyway, such as the 24 Hour Church of Elvis. It's the interpretation of these theological considerations that cause division and confusion for the rank and file Christian trying to make sense of it all.

Originally Posted by thrillobyte

A veritable "grab-bag" of dogmas with the emphasis on "dog". Pick your poison. But what if you pick the wrong one? Stoke the furnaces.

Thrillobyte, it's not a matter of choosing the right one or the wrong one in regards to predestination. I seriously doubt, and don't think anyone is suggesting, that God is going to pull the lever and send someone to Hell for choosing door number one over door number three. Man is by nature competitive. No one wants to be on the "losing team." We tend to puff up and blow a lot of hot air trying to make our choice the right one. Regardless your disdain for "dogma" you must have some predestination proclivity, even "none of the above" is something.

[thrillobyte]

Originally Posted by bartstarr1960

I think we could whittle that number down a bit, but that's another topic. There really aren't 30,000 different beliefs, but instead many different subdivisions of theologically biblical interpretation conclusions. I don't think any of the great theologians journeyed out on the premise of making The Bible fit their preconcieved interpretations, but instead searched The Bible and developed their interpretations. Humans are imperfect and not beyond the pitfalls belying man. I disagree that "nobody can agree on anything." The main theological considerations are pretty much the same across the board, except for perhaps some whacked out thinkings no one credits anyway, such as the 24 Hour Church of Elvis. It's the interpretation of these theological considerations that cause division and confusion for the rank and file Christian trying to make sense of it all.


Thrillobyte, it's not a matter of choosing the right one or the wrong one in regards to predestination. I seriously doubt, and don't think anyone is suggesting, that God is going to pull the lever and send someone to Hell for choosing door number one over door number three. Man is by nature competitive. No one wants to be on the "losing team." We tend to puff up and blow a lot of hot air trying to make our choice the right one. Regardless your disdain for "dogma" you must have some predestination proclivity, even "none of the above" is something.

Dogma, by its very nature, is rigid, inflexible and totally closed to any kind of interpretation--said interpretation which, while worthy of consideration, is to be shunned, ignored and even labeled heretical if it poses the slightest threat to our religious hierarchy and its tyrannical control over how men think.

Have I defined fundamentalism fairly accurately? And this applies not just to Christian fundamentalism but to Islamic fundamentalism as well and just about any powerful institution based on ideology and principles rather than simple truth.

You sense my disdain for dogma and you're right. When it attempts to cover over truth with its version of what truth should be--and nine out of ten times a powerful institution's idea of truth in the final analysis is whatever most benefits it, not people--then, yeah, I find myself totally disdainful of dogma.

I thought of Matthew 25:31-32 the other day and puzzled over it.

“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats”

I puzzled over the bolded word, "nations" because right away we are presented with a dilemma. When Jesus spoke this--if indeed He did speak this--what on earth could He have meant:

1. nations are inanimate, non-tangible objects like air, or ideas, or even music and literature. Or it could be argued nations are just real estate. Is Jesus saying that the tens of thousands of pieces of real estate that have existed down through the ages will be gathered before Him?
2. nations are run by presidents, kings, dictators, heads of states, parliaments, etc. Is Jesus saying that the tens of thousands of rulers that have ruled over these tens of thousands of pieces of real estate down through the ages will be gathered before Him?
3. nations are made up of people living within their borders. Is Jesus saying that the tens of billions of people who lived under these tens of thousands of rulers that have ruled over these tens of thousands of pieces of real estate down through the ages will be gathered before Him?

If I asked this question to those 30,000+ denominations (it was later established that there is more like 40,000+ denominations of Christianity) I wonder what variety of answers I would be given. Certainly all three, depending their particular religious "dogma" and probably several I didn't even think of that were more esoteric in nature.

If someone doesn't see a problem in the example I have presented in Matthew 25:31-32 then they are likely a victim (or willing captive) of religious dogma.