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Old 10-12-2013, 07:42 PM
 
Location: New England
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nateswift View Post
It is a good summary and the point remains that without the guidance of the Spirit promised, the text is worthless or worse as attested by the hundreds if not thousands of denominations that claim to rely on the text. If people would stop making the text into something it is not and rely on the Spirit as tested by its fruit things would be a lot better in the Christian world.
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Old 10-12-2013, 07:51 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nateswift View Post
Two points have been made, one I have to keep making is that "theopneustos" was not a word made up to describe the inspiration of Biblical books, but a term used in the Koine to describe the "inspiration" for a history or a play or any other intellectual work. Wrenching it to look like God authored those books is at best disingenuous. And one that Warden Dresden makes is that the term "scriptures" at most refers to Torah and the practice of saying "this is scripture so this passage refers to it" is faulty reasoning, again at best.

Why do people insist on trying to assign an authority to written words when those written words themselves tell us only that a "comforter" was to be sent for our guide?
Nateswift I don't agree. It will take me a day, maybe two to formulate my answer. However, looking at theopneustos etymologically, with hapax legomenon, and both narrowly and broadly contextually I'm not seeing your definiton. Would you kindly give your source?
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Old 10-12-2013, 07:59 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clear lens View Post
I only have a minute to write until my next appointment but I wanted to make a point.

Because sacred texts are such an integral and lifelong way of our introduction to and maturing education of concepts that touch upon the nature of existence and it’s purposes, that any “quick and dirty” metaphorical summation will seem insufficient, even to the point of seeming trite. However, I would like to make a discrete point of view to sacred texts.


The texts of the bible amidst a sea of historical texts
For historically minded, the bible is not a “stand alone” text but is entirely a produce of inspired individuals who lived inside and were affected by their cultures and time periods; by their language and by their writing skills. One need not ascribe to these documents, characteristics that they do not have, either for positive or negative.


Sacred texts as “troves” of knowledge and wisdom
One can view the collection of texts within the bible as a “cache”; a “treasure chest” of prior moral wisdom and experience others individuals have gained so as to allow us to more quickly and easily follow in trails of faith and moral wisdom they have already blazed in the past. They can tell us where the difficult passages and dangers in our spiritual journey lie. The texts can, like a map, tell us paths to avoid and point to the paths that will bring us to greater joy. Just as the Bible is not, itself, salvation, but points the way to salvation, the biblical texts are not objects of veneration or worship, but merely describe and point the way to objects of veneration and worship. The Bible is not the journey, but it describes the journey.


Changing objects/manner of worship associated with changing maturation and changing situation
I do not agree with post # 2 in it’s claim that “the highest form of worship is studying God's Word. “ , however, I understand, to some extent, the mechanics behind the claim. To some degree our worship and veneration is dependent upon our knowledge and our understanding and our experiences. This is not a defect per se, but it is simply part of our nature.

For example, if a committed and quite honest Christian has not had the actual experience of profound spiritual communication from God through the Holy Spirit, then it makes sense that they will fix on the and highest best experience they have had as a model of “religious experience” and their concept as to what “worship” feels like, will be limited to their prior experience and understanding. It’s like the 6 year old that has a dollar and feels rich. His 16 year old brother scorns this concept since he has 100 dollars and feels like that is really "rich". The young Father may smile and shake his head since he has 10,000 dollars in the bank and his house is paid off and so he feels like he really does know what “rich” feels like. However, to Bill Gates, the 10th billion must have felt different than the 10th million dollars in terms of what "rich" actually was.

The point is, that the Christian that is quite honest and quite committed is perhaps, doing the best that he can at the level of knowledge and experience he has, so far, been given. He is still at the level of reading about God in a text, while another Christian experiences on-going communication from God through prayer and dreams and revelations. The concept of what it means to “know God” is different for both of them.

Both are equally smart; equally committed; equally blessed; but they are at unequal points in their journey toward knowing and understanding and relating to God. Given a few years and continuing faith and diligence and obedience to the moral insights they have, then the less mature Christian may be at the level and understanding as the one who has spiritual communication, while the one with spiritual communication has progressed further in the journey to knowing; understanding; and having a developing relationship with God.


For me, the value of sacred texts, even as imperfect historical descriptions and experiences from the letters of individuals who lived in the past is that they are profoundly valuable educational tools in our journey from “lower levels” of knowledge and understanding into the “higher levels” more efficiently that if one had to travel this journey without such textual insights and help.

Whether or not this overly simplified model is correct, I hope you all have a good journey.


Clear
This is Clear Len's way of calling me spiritually immature.

There is no spiritual growth apart from the Scriptures. The Holy Spirit produces spiritual growth in the believer when that believer transfers the teachings of the Bible from the pages of the Bible into his soul under the filling ministry of the Holy Spirit who is the true Mentor, and applying those teachings to his life.

As I clearly stated in post #2 of this thread, ''The believer redeems his time on this earth by growing spiritually by means of grace through the inculcation, metabolization, and application of God's Word under the filling of the Holy Spirit. That praises God and is the highest form of worship.''

Claims that I ignore the necessity of the Holy Spirit's ministry are without merit.
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Old 10-12-2013, 08:29 PM
 
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Clear lens said in post # 19
Quote:
" Because sacred texts are such an integral and lifelong way of our introduction to and maturing education of concepts that touch upon the nature of existence and it’s purposes; any “quick and dirty” metaphorical summation will seem insufficient, even to the point of seeming trite. However, I would like to make a discrete point of view to sacred texts.


The texts of the bible amidst a sea of historical texts
For historically minded, the bible is not a “stand alone” text but it's text represent a small portion of sacred religious texts that existed in early judeo-christianity. The stories within it's texts that made it into the western bible were initially a production of inspired individuals who lived inside and were affected by their cultures and time periods; by their language and by their writing skills. One need not ascribe to these documents, characteristics that they do not have, either for positive or negative.


Sacred texts as “troves” of knowledge and wisdom
One can view the collection of texts within the bible as a “cache”; a “treasure chest” of prior knowledge, moral wisdom, and experience others individuals have gained so as to allow us to more quickly and easily follow in trails of faith and moral wisdom they have already blazed in the past. They can tell us where the difficult passages and dangers in our spiritual journey lie. The texts can, like a map, tell us paths to avoid and point to the paths that will bring us to greater joy. Just as the Bible is not, itself, salvation, but points the way to salvation, the biblical texts are not objects of veneration or worship, but merely describe and point the way to objects of veneration and worship. The Bible is not the goal, but it describes the journey to our goal.


Changing objects/manner of worship associated with changing maturation and changing situation
I do not agree with post # 2 in it’s claim that
the highest form of worship is studying God's Word. “ , however, I understand, to some extent, the mechanics behind the claim. To some degree our worship and veneration is dependent upon our knowledge and our understanding and our experiences. This is not a defect per se, but it is simply part of our nature.

For example, if a committed and quite honest Christian has not had the actual experience of profound spiritual communication from God through the Holy Spirit, then it makes sense that they will fix on the highest and best experience they have had as a model of “the highest religious experience". Their concept as to what “worship” feels like, will be limited somewhat and in the same way, by limited prior experience and limited understanding. It’s like the 6 year old that has a dollar and feels rich. His 16 year old brother scorns this concept since he has 100 dollars and feels like that is really "rich". The young Father may smile and shake his head since he has 10,000 dollars in the bank and his house is paid off and so he feels like he really does know what “rich” feels like. However, to Bill Gates, the 10th billion must have felt different than the 10th million dollars in terms of what "rich" actually was. "Rich" is, to some extent, relative to our situation. In the same way, our personal concept and model of what the "highest experience" of religious worship is, will be relative to our individual knowledge, our individual understanding, and our personal experiences.

The point is, that the Christian that is quite honest and quite committed is perhaps, even in an immature (and incorrect) understanding of what concepts such as "highest worship" or "highest religious experience", (etc) mean, is doing the best that he can at the level of knowledge and experience he has, so far, been given. He is still at the level of reading about God in a text, while another Christian experiences on-going communication from God through prayer and dreams and revelations. The concept of what it means to “know God” is different for both of them.

Both are equally smart; equally committed; equally blessed; but they are at unequal points in their journey toward knowing and understanding and relating to God. Given a few years and continuing faith and diligence and obedience to the moral insights they have, then the less mature Christian may be at the level and understanding as the one who has spiritual communication was at, while the one with spiritual communication has, meanwhile, progressed still further in the journey to knowing; understanding; and having a developing relationship with God.


For me, the value of sacred texts, even as imperfect historical descriptions and experiences from the letters of individuals who lived in the past is that they are profoundly valuable educational tools in our journey from “lower levels” of knowledge and understanding into the “higher levels” more efficiently than if one had to travel this spiritual journey without such textual insights and help. However, texts themselves, are of a different type of experience and knowledge from that imparted to us by the Spirit of God as it communicates knowledge and wisdom to our own spirit.
"
Mike555 replied in post # 19
Quote:
" This is Clear Len's way of calling me spiritually immature. There is no spiritual growth apart from the Scriptures. "
Mike555 :

I am saying that ALL of us are spiritually immature. There is no need for pride to prevent us from admitting this to ourselves. We are not simply "flipping a light switch" in becoming mature, but rather we are all on a journey and we in the process of growing and changing. All of us. As I said, " This is not a defect per se, but it is simply part of our nature."

As to your reflexive theory " There is no spiritual growth apart from the Scriptures ", again, I have to take exception. Many of us were introduced to God before we could read and quite apart from the scriptures. When, as a child, my mom first introduced me to the concept that a God existed, the moment that I believed in this concept and started to consider his relationship to me and to the rest of us, I was making spiritual growth; increasing in understanding. If the spirit of God confirmed to my heart that this concept was true and the spirit gave me further insight and further spiritual understanding, this too was growth that I underwent "apart from the scriptures". You are trying to endow these texts with magical powers they do not have. The spirit ALSO can give us growth whether we have scriptures or not. If the early Judeo-Christian Abrahamic and Mosaic texts and traditions tell us anything at all, they witness to us of the power of the spirit to give spiritual growth to individuals who had no scriptures at all, to develop a relationship with God. I think this was Nateswifts point and it is both simple and profound.

Whether we ever agree on the concept that the spirit of God can also give insight and assist us in spiritual Growth or not, still, I hope your journey in the gospel is good Mike555.

Clear

Last edited by Clear lens; 10-12-2013 at 09:10 PM..
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Old 10-12-2013, 08:48 PM
 
Location: Southern Oregon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bartstarr1960 View Post
Nateswift I don't agree. It will take me a day, maybe two to formulate my answer. However, looking at theopneustos etymologically, with hapax legomenon, and both narrowly and broadly contextually I'm not seeing your definiton. Would you kindly give your source?
Arndt and Gingrich (in any of its various permutations) Greek-English Lexicon gives examples of usage in the literature of the time.
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Old 10-12-2013, 08:52 PM
 
Location: Southern Oregon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
There is no spiritual growth apart from the Scriptures. The Holy Spirit produces spiritual growth in the believer when that believer transfers the teachings of the Bible from the pages of the Bible into his soul under the filling ministry of the Holy Spirit who is the true Mentor, and applying those teachings to his life.

As I clearly stated in post #2 of this thread, ''The believer redeems his time on this earth by growing spiritually by means of grace through the inculcation, metabolization, and application of God's Word under the filling of the Holy Spirit. That praises God and is the highest form of worship.''

Claims that I ignore the necessity of the Holy Spirit's ministry are without merit.





Why do you insist on making the Spirit subject to the writings. Everything else you say about the
spirit as mentor is correct.
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Old 10-12-2013, 09:07 PM
 
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Hi Nateswift :

As usual, your very simple and down-to-earth point that the spirit of God can and does provide spiritual knowledge, understanding and ultimately contributes to our sanctification, is quite profound. Your common sense is consistently impressive to me Nate.

The early Judeo-Christians also believed in this principle of the importance of the spirit of God as a paraclete and a guide into knowledge and understanding that was quite apart from the scriptures.

For example, Moses, growing up, presumably did not read a great deal of Hebrew scriptures, nor did most of these texts exist in any widespread form Since HE, (traditionally) was the writer of the first 5 books of the old testament. One story that illustrates the training of Moses that involves the Spirit of God rather than scriptures comes from Philo, who related early Jewish traditions.
Quote:
One day, while Moses was out tending sheep, he was meditating about life and it’s meaning when he noticed a traveler come and stop at the well to refresh himself. Unnoticed, a purse of money dropped out of his garments and fell on the ground before he continued on his journey. After a short while another traveler appeared. He refreshed himself with the cool water and, while standing near the well, found the money bag on the ground. He picked it up, rejoiced about the stroke of luck and went happily on his way. Yet another stranger came after a while who also drank of the water from the well and then proceeded to take a nap nearby. Meanwhile, the first traveler had noticed the loss of his purse and hurriedly returned to the area since he surmised that he could have only lost it while refreshing himself at the well.

When he saw the sleeping man, he awakened him and asked him whether he had found the money, to which the other replied, truthfully, that he had not. However, the first stranger evidently did not believe the other’s assurance and after some accusations and shouting, a fight between the two ensued. It was at this point Moses came running from his place of meditation to quell the disturbance and calm the tempers because he had witnessed what had happened. But it was too late. The man who had lost the purse had already killed the innocent man when Moses arrived at the scene. The prophet related his observations to the man, who was quite shaken at his deed, and departed in great sorrow over the loss of his possessions and the knowledge of having killed for no cause.

Moses was also shaken by this experience and he wondered deeply about the justice and benevolence of a God who had permitted such an act to happen.

Lord of the Universe, spoke Moses, “can it be thy will to punish the innocent and let prosper the guilty? The man who hath stolen the money bag is enjoying wealth which is not his, whilst the innocent man hath been slain. The owner of the money, too, hath not only lost his property, but his loss hath been the cause of his becoming a murderer. I fail to understand the ways of providence and workings of divine justice. O Almighty, reveal unto me Thy hidden ways that I may understand.”

And so the Lord proceeded reveal through his spirit to Moses why it was just. The man who had lost the money had inherited it from his father who, in turn, had stolen it from the father of the man who had found it. Therefore that situation had now been corrected. The man who had been killed, had in years past killed the brother of the man who had killed him during the quarrel. Said the Lord to Moses:

" Know then, O Moses, that I ordained it that the murderer should be put to death by the brother of the victim, whilst the son should find the money of which his father had once been robbed. My ways are inscrutable, and often the human mind wonders why the innocent suffer and the wicked prosper
. " (Ginzberg, II, 302; Philo, Vita Mosis, 1:12)
The historian Ginzberg notes regarding this textual tradition that “the great prophet-leader was taught the ways and wisdom of God, how to deal with men and how to judge and how not to...” There are many, many, many early Judeo-Christian traditions and texts and relate their witness as to how prophets and non-prophets alike, are taught and gain spiritual knowledge and spiritual understanding and spiritual growth under conditions where scriptures as we have them, were neither available nor known to those whom the spirit of God was tutoring.

The early prophets and vast numbers of early sacred textual witness tell us that there is a great deal of spiritual growth to be had “apart from the scriptures”. God who loves us as much as he does his prophets is willing to teach us by his spirit and this mechanism has always been available to mankind.

Mike555's theory that “ There is no spiritual growth apart from the Scriptures “ is quite inconsistent with the vast amount of judeo-christian textual witnesses that span millennia. His personal interpretation simply does not exist within any Judeo-Christian literature of the period. I do not believe that Mike555's modern personal theory and interpretation should take precedence over the early Judeo-Christian's interpretation that the spirit speaks and teaches us. Anyone who has had experiences with the spirit of God knows that they are able to grow spiritually from it's guidance and influence.


Good luck in your journey as well Nate

Clear
εινεσεω

Last edited by Clear lens; 10-12-2013 at 09:36 PM..
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Old 10-12-2013, 10:18 PM
 
Location: Denver, CO
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Default Growth in view of the PLACE of Scripture in worship

Clear, excellent posts #19, #24, and #27. Your scholarship and interpretation provide leadership to many of us.

How one VIEWS the Bible is paramount to its place of worship in the denominations into which we divide ourselves. Those whose VIEW of the scripture is more modernistic and untied to historical evidence or textual review, tend to have a more "physical" attachment to the Bible than the "spiritual" attachment many others have.

I found a quote by Greg Carey, a professor of New Testament at Lancaster Theological Seminary, which reflects almost exactly my own growth from that modernistic, mystical view of scripture to one that is constantly seeking and searching for the truth God offers--whether it is in the Bible, in the inspirational words of another, in song, in the kindness that one human shows another, or in the beauty of nature.

Quote:
The best way for conservative churches to produce "liberal" biblical scholars is to keep encouraging young people to read the Bible.

That's how it worked for me. I didn't grow up in church, but I found Jesus and was baptized in an Alabama Baptist church just before my 15th birthday. Our pastor and youth director encouraged me to read the Bible, so I did: I got an affordable new Bible and read the Gospel of John. And I loved it! I felt that I knew Jesus more intimately and understood my faith better.
------
Mark Twain is supposed to have said, "The best cure for Christianity is reading the Bible." If he did say that, his wisdom didn't take in my case. Though I understand it differently, I love the Bible as much as I ever have. I'm just as passionate for Jesus and for the gospel as I ever have been, though I understand them differently too. But I can say this: Reading the Bible is a terrific cure for fundamentalism. That's exactly how many of us so-called liberal Bible scholars got our start.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/greg-c...b_1774447.html

So I can agree with the thought that we should ALL read the Bible, utilize it within our worship services without worshipping it, and see what happens!!! Yes, there will be some who will find the inconsistencies in the Bible to be troubling, and will fall away if pushed by dogmatists to hold to a literal view of it. But there will be others who see the Bible for what it really is, and be energized to study it more, to understand it better, to put it in it's historical perspective in order to prevent it from being a bludgeon used against others, to learn that even those early believers were haunted by doubts and concerns and misunderstandings. And that faith, small as a mustard seed, will be enough to overcome the rocky road that traverses the meandering writings that we have. And they will be spiritually better for the journey.

The OVER emphasis of the Bible is a belief that getting the words right, is the highest form of faith. Jesus came to give us life, a living, breathing, throbbing, pulsating blow your hair back tingle your spine roll the windows down and drive fast experience of God right here, right now. He walked and talked and laughed and INTERACTED with the people that many of our churches reject today. If you can't get God OUT of the Bible and INTO your life, then the Bible serves no purpose in worship and certainly is not worthy of study.

The Bible is best understood, not as the sole source of spirituality OR worship, but as a foundation for learning how to walk in the steps of Jesus and produce the fruit of the spirit which comes from those who have truly found Him.

Last edited by Wardendresden; 10-12-2013 at 10:33 PM..
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Old 10-12-2013, 11:18 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clear lens View Post
Clear lens said in post # 19 Mike555 replied in post # 19 Mike555 :

I am saying that ALL of us are spiritually immature. There is no need for pride to prevent us from admitting this to ourselves. We are not simply "flipping a light switch" in becoming mature, but rather we are all on a journey and we in the process of growing and changing. All of us. As I said, " This is not a defect per se, but it is simply part of our nature."

As to your reflexive theory " There is no spiritual growth apart from the Scriptures ", again, I have to take exception. Many of us were introduced to God before we could read and quite apart from the scriptures. When, as a child, my mom first introduced me to the concept that a God existed, the moment that I believed in this concept and started to consider his relationship to me and to the rest of us, I was making spiritual growth; increasing in understanding. If the spirit of God confirmed to my heart that this concept was true and the spirit gave me further insight and further spiritual understanding, this too was growth that I underwent "apart from the scriptures". You are trying to endow these texts with magical powers they do not have. The spirit ALSO can give us growth whether we have scriptures or not. If the early Judeo-Christian Abrahamic and Mosaic texts and traditions tell us anything at all, they witness to us of the power of the spirit to give spiritual growth to individuals who had no scriptures at all, to develop a relationship with God. I think this was Nateswifts point and it is both simple and profound.

Whether we ever agree on the concept that the spirit of God can also give insight and assist us in spiritual Growth or not, still, I hope your journey in the gospel is good Mike555.

Clear
On the contrary. With spiritual growth comes the potential for spiritual maturity. The Bible speaks of many who were spiritually mature. While the believer's spiritual growth has no upper limit, that is, he can continue to grow spiritually all of his Christian life, he can certainly reach a point of maturity.

Spiritual growth comes from the Scriptures under the filling of the Holy Spirit. No believer can reach spiritual maturity without being transformed by the renewing of his mind (Romans 12:2). And that comes by growing in the grace and knowledge of Jesus Christ (2 Peter 3:18). The Holy Spirit effects spiritual growth in the believer by means of the pure milk of the word of God.
1 Peter 2:2 like newborn babies, long for the pure milk of the word, so that by it you may grow in respect to salvation.
God's word is the spiritual nourishment which produces growth. For the believer to advance to spiritual maturity and leave behind spiritual childhood, he must first learn the basic doctrines of the word, and then more advanced doctrines. And this is what the writer of Hebrews urged his readers to do.
Heb. 5:11 Concerning him we have much to say, and it is hard to explain, since you have become dull of hearing. 12] For by this time you ought to be teachers, you have need again for someone to teach you the elementary principles of the oracles of God, and you have come to need milk and not solid food. 13] For everyone who partakes only of milk is not accustomed to the word of righteousness, for he is an infant. 14] But solid food is for the mature, who because of practice have their senses trained to discern good and evil. 6:1] Therefore leaving behind the elementary teaching about the Christ, let us press on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, 2] of instruction abut washings and laying on of hands, and the resurrection of the dead and eternal judgment.

1 Timothy 4:6 In pointing out these things to the brethren, you will be a good servant of Christ Jesus, constantly nourished on the words of the faith and of the sound doctrine which you have been following.
The believer must keep himself nourished by the objective doctrines of the Word of God. The believer does not long stand still in his spiritual life. He is either advancing or retreating. Neglect of the Word of God causes the believer to retrogress spiritually. The believer must press on by means of learning and applying the Word of God. The believer who thinks he can neglect the Word of God and grow spiritually is only fooling himself.
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Old 10-13-2013, 12:01 PM
 
Location: Denver, CO
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Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
On the contrary. With spiritual growth comes the potential for spiritual maturity. The Bible speaks of many who were spiritually mature. While the believer's spiritual growth has no upper limit, that is, he can continue to grow spiritually all of his Christian life, he can certainly reach a point of maturity.

Spiritual growth comes from the Scriptures under the filling of the Holy Spirit. No believer can reach spiritual maturity without being transformed by the renewing of his mind (Romans 12:2). And that comes by growing in the grace and knowledge of Jesus Christ (2 Peter 3:18). The Holy Spirit effects spiritual growth in the believer by means of the pure milk of the word of God.
1 Peter 2:2 like newborn babies, long for the pure milk of the word, so that by it you may grow in respect to salvation.
God's word is the spiritual nourishment which produces growth. For the believer to advance to spiritual maturity and leave behind spiritual childhood, he must first learn the basic doctrines of the word, and then more advanced doctrines. And this is what the writer of Hebrews urged his readers to do.
Heb. 5:11 Concerning him we have much to say, and it is hard to explain, since you have become dull of hearing. 12] For by this time you ought to be teachers, you have need again for someone to teach you the elementary principles of the oracles of God, and you have come to need milk and not solid food. 13] For everyone who partakes only of milk is not accustomed to the word of righteousness, for he is an infant. 14] But solid food is for the mature, who because of practice have their senses trained to discern good and evil. 6:1] Therefore leaving behind the elementary teaching about the Christ, let us press on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, 2] of instruction abut washings and laying on of hands, and the resurrection of the dead and eternal judgment.

1 Timothy 4:6 In pointing out these things to the brethren, you will be a good servant of Christ Jesus, constantly nourished on the words of the faith and of the sound doctrine which you have been following.
The believer must keep himself nourished by the objective doctrines of the Word of God. The believer does not long stand still in his spiritual life. He is either advancing or retreating. Neglect of the Word of God causes the believer to retrogress spiritually. The believer must press on by means of learning and applying the Word of God. The believer who thinks he can neglect the Word of God and grow spiritually is only fooling himself.
Nourishment comes from every word out of the mouth of God. And MysticPhD and others are absolutely correct that the Word of God, is so much more than the Bible. In fact, the Bible itself is not necessarily the "Word" referred to in the scriptures themselves. To believe that God has no personal communication with people today is, in fact, to deny the very scriptures held sacred:

1. Young Samuel could not distinguish the voice of God from the man he served every day (I Sam. 3:4-5)
2. The resurrected Jesus walked for a long distance with two of His disciples and they didn't recognize Him for who He was (Luke 24:13-31).
3. Jacob went to sleep not realizing he was lying over the gateway to heaven (Genesis 28:11-17)

The Pharisees themselves had the scriptures memorized backwards and forwards--put all their faith in "knowledge" of the scriptures---and Jesus called them vipers.

Quote:
There is a huge pitfall in Christianity: thinking the Bible is solely the Word of God, There is a huge pitfall in Christianity: by thinking the Bible is the Word of God alone, and thinking that all the commands in the Bible referencing the Word of God, refer solely to the Bible; when the references really mean going to God directly and listening to the Word of God personally speaking to you. If you don’t also listen to the Voice of God, you will never really grow; you will never know from what to repent; you will never receive his changing, purifying grace; you will not find God or his will and plan for you; and you will not have any final reward in the Kingdom of God or Christ. You will never make it to Heaven but still only to Hell. You can memorize the entire Bible, quoting chapter and verse, and it will gain you nothing with God. It is easy to read the Bible. It often feels good to read the Bible, as long as you discount all the requirements such as holiness, perfection, and purity while ignoring the disqualifications of anger, lust, immorality, impurity, greed, etc. The Bible wasn’t even printed until 1516, but the early church thrived for 300 plus years without it. Like many in the early church, even if you can’t read, you can be changed and purified to enter the Kingdom of Heaven as a son of God forever – by listening to God’s voice and obeying it. For he calls us all to repentance, Christhood, and the Kingdom of Heaven.

Hear this! Understand, the Bible is not the Word of God, for the many scriptures that refer to the Word of God are not referring to the Bible, but rather to the voice of God or the Lord – his words from him, the living spirit Word otherwise you are looking to the wrong source of growth – a book, instead of God’s spirit, who desires to speak and teach you outside of the Bible. The Holy Spirit will teach you all things. John 14:26. He desires to teach you individual, personal things about yourself, and how he wants you to live, how he wants you to improve, what he wants you to deny – as well as encourage you, tell you of his love for you, and open up the scriptures to you, including the mysteries. If you limit yourself to reading the Bible, you will only get crumbs beneath the table.
God still speaks outside of the Bible as well | Missing the point?

And this is why placing the Bible as the sole emphasis in worship is not only inadequate (the crumbs under the table), but potentially heretical (the Pharisees pride in biblical knowledge).

Last edited by Wardendresden; 10-13-2013 at 12:09 PM.. Reason: formatting
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