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Old 10-11-2013, 06:36 AM
 
Location: Harare, Zimbabwe
113 posts, read 119,484 times
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God uses his word within us to speak to us, God always builds on his word. The more the word of God you have in you, the more God speaks to you. As you read and know the word, God builds you on the inside and speaks to you more and in the process this changes your personal walk with Him revolutionizing your worship. I have seen worship leaders who look like nothing on the exterior or those that don’t meet the profile and not vocally talented but when they sing heavens open for them. Why?

"The entrance of thy words giveth light; it giveth understanding unto the simple”. Psalms 119:130. If we can live in a place where our worship is based on his word then we walk and lead people in the light because the word of God leads and guides us. His word brings understanding to us and as worship leaders we have access to understanding because we know his word, “to know his word is to know Him”.

It’s not just about singing songs or leading people it’s about creating an experience for the audience to experience his presence. If God is the word, then we should worship Him based on what He says He is. Someone once said that worship is our opportunity to remind God of what He says He is and allowing Him to respond to that word.

Worship leaders you don’t have to have a perfect pitched voice with the high ranges and an awestruck tune and melody but you need learn to pull on the heavens by his word, declaring and reminding Him of His word because God responds to His word more than anything.

It’s when we worship Him for who is He is that he descends upon the place. The most powerful worship times are when we worship God through and by his word. The most powerful songs on earth are just simply songs taken from scripture.

Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth”. John 17:17. Jesus was asking the Father “Set them apart through thy word for the word is truth”. Think about it, the word of God makes us Holy; the word of God makes us clean and pure. Our offering becomes pure because it comes from a sanctified place which is acceptable.

Heaven responds to the calling and adoration of men, when worship comes from the depth, heaven responds with depth. When worship is based upon the word then heaven responds with revelation. As a worship leader if you desire to move form okay worship to a different level of worship in life, have the word of God in you and in your heart.

“Leading People Him In The Beauty Of His Holiness”
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Old 10-11-2013, 09:05 AM
 
21,877 posts, read 16,702,058 times
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Good post. Both when assembled with others in church, and when alone, the highest form of worship is studying God's Word. Jesus said that it is written that ''man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word which proceeds out of the mouth of God.'' (Matthew 4:4).

The believer is to grow spiritually in his walk with God. We are to grow in grace and in the knowledge of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, and to accurately handle Gods Word.
2 Peter 3:18 But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be the glory, both now and to the day of eternity. Amen.
2 Timothy 2:15 Be diligent to present yourself approved to God as a workman who does not need to be ashamed, accurately handling the word of truth.
The believer redeems his time on this earth by growing spiritually by means of grace through the inculcation, metabolization, and application of God's Word under the filling of the Holy Spirit. That praises God and is the highest form of worship.
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Old 10-11-2013, 01:48 PM
 
40,084 posts, read 26,750,404 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Both when assembled with others in church, and when alone, the highest form of worship is studying God's Word. Jesus said that it is written that ''man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word which proceeds out of the mouth of God.'' (Matthew 4:4).
But He didn't say on every written word in the Bible . . . He said "on every word which proceeds out of the mouth of God." Christ alone is the Living Word of God and He abides with us as the Comforter (Holy Spirit) within our consciousness to guide us to what God has "written in our hearts" under the New Covenant. We follow Him by following His instructions to His disciples to "love God and each other" daily and repent when you don't, period. That is how we grow and develop spiritual maturity in our walk with Christ sufficient to be reborn as Spirit upon our death . . . as Christ was. Christ as the WAY means it is a path to be followed . . . not merely believed in. It is useless to believe that a path will lead you where you want to be . . . if you do NOT follow it!
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Old 10-11-2013, 03:23 PM
 
Location: Florida -
8,764 posts, read 10,848,423 times
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Every Word that we acknowledge and declare was spoken by Christ to His disciples (or anyone else) is recorded in the Bible (He may have said other things, but, we have no direct knowledge of that). God's Word, as we understand it, is recorded in the Bible. Anything that contradicts what God or Christ said, as recorded in the Bible, is false and not to be trusted. If God's Word, the Bible, is not an active part of one's worship and knowledge of truth and error, they are deceived.

Yes indeed! God's Word should be central to all worship and our daily lives. Any effort to draw people away from the truth of God's Word ... or to cause people to question God's Word, is not of God, but, of Satan. -- Does this mean that we should worship the Bible? Of course not! But, God's Word, as recorded in OT and NT scriptures and affirmed through the prophets and Christ, and the Holy Spirit - is our source of truth.

Rev. 22:18-19 applies to all scripture, not just the Book of Revelation:
18 I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to that person the plagues described in this scroll. 19 And if anyone takes words away from this scroll of prophecy, God will take away from that person any share in the tree of life and in the Holy City, which are described in this scroll.

Last edited by jghorton; 10-11-2013 at 03:39 PM..
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Old 10-11-2013, 07:03 PM
 
21,877 posts, read 16,702,058 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
But He didn't say on every written word in the Bible . . . He said "on every word which proceeds out of the mouth of God."
ALL scripture is God-breathed.
2 Timothy 3:16 All (pas - every) Scripture is God-breathed (theopneustos) and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; 17] so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.
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Old 10-11-2013, 10:04 PM
 
Location: Denver, CO
9,289 posts, read 5,497,161 times
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Default 2 Tim 3:16 Refers to the Old Testament

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
ALL scripture is God-breathed.
2 Timothy 3:16 All (pas - every) Scripture is God-breathed (theopneustos) and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; 17] so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.
Quote:
Second Timothy 3:16 is often cited as proof of certain views of inspiration, especially those that tend to absolute biblical inerrancy. Often closely related to this perspective is the idea that the Bible has some kind of inherent power on its own to effect salvation. In this view, if someone just reads the Bible its (absolute and inerrant) truth can bring the person to correct belief in God, which is a prerequisite for salvation.

However, a little closer examination raises serious questions as to whether we can develop any specific theology of inspiration of Scripture from this passage, not to mention supporting the idea that the Bible has salvific power on its own by virtue of it being Scripture.

Also note that it is not the "Bible" referenced in this verse, but rather "the sacred writings" (grammata, a different term than is used in verse 16, grapha). Since a formal canon of the Old Testament had not yet been declared or only recently declared in Judaism (Council of Jamnia, AD 90), there did not yet exist a "Bible." So, using these two verses to talk about the "Bible" is anachronistic. The phrase "since childhood" (3:15) identifies the writings as, at the very least, the writings held sacred in Judaism. That is, they are the writings known to Christians now as the Old Testament.

With the Pauline influence on this epistle (whether or not Paul is the author), it would be nearly impossible for the writer to say that the Old Testament writings had the ability to bring one to salvation through Faith in Christ. That would contradict what Paul says rather clearly in Romans, would say something radically different than the Book of Hebrews, and would even challenge the theology of James. So, it cannot be that the writer here is declaring that the Bible can be a vehicle for salvation, as if it had some power apart from the community of Faith and God working in it. This is not any kind of reference to the Bible being able to bring sometime into salvation, in terms of what we mean by "getting people saved." It does not even imply that the Bible alone has "some special ability I don’t have in and of myself to persuade souls." The "sacred writings" here only function within the larger community of faith along with the testimony and teachings of the apostles and other members of the community.
--------
The addition of "through faith in Jesus Christ" serves to clarify that this is a Christian activity. That is, the wisdom concerning salvation is not the wisdom of Judaism, but the completion of the revelation of God through the testimony of the Gospel. The continued use of the "sacred writings" and the "scripture" by Timothy and his community is not for the purpose of "getting people saved" but to make them wise concerning God’s work of salvation proclaimed in the Gospel message, to help them continue to mature in the Faith of which they are already a part. That is still the primary purpose of the Bible today.

So, rather than affirming any particular doctrine of inspiration of Scripture, this passage does almost the opposite. That is, it does not affirm the absolute authority of Scripture as somehow dictated by God and therefore containing some special power in the lives of people. Rather, it places Scripture, inspired though it is, within a larger context of a community of Faith that uses the teachings of Scripture to instruct growing Christians.
Dennis Bratcher "Copyright © 2013 CRI/Voice, Institute"
Notes on 2 Timothy 3:16
Dennis R. Bratcher, Treasurer and Executive Director - A retired professor of Old Testament; he has earned the PhD in Biblical studies from Union Theological Seminary in Virginia, and has served as a educator in the church for more than 25 years.

Last edited by june 7th; 10-12-2013 at 09:08 AM..
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Old 10-11-2013, 10:22 PM
 
284 posts, read 252,541 times
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Wardendresden, quoting Dennis Bratcher offered the following in post #7 :
Second Timothy 3:16 is often cited as proof of certain views of inspiration, especially those that tend to absolute biblical inerrancy. Often closely related to this perspective is the idea that the Bible has some kind of inherent power on its own to effect salvation. In this view, if someone just reads the Bible its (absolute and inerrant) truth can bring the person to correct belief in God, which is a prerequisite for salvation.

However, a little closer examination raises serious questions as to whether we can develop any specific theology of inspiration of Scripture from this passage, not to mention supporting the idea that the Bible has salvific power on its own by virtue of it being Scripture.

Also note that it is not the "Bible" referenced in this verse, but rather "the sacred writings" (grammata, a different term than is used in verse 16, grapha). Since a formal canon of the Old Testament had not yet been declared or only recently declared in Judaism (Council of Jamnia, AD 90), there did not yet exist a "Bible." So, using these two verses to talk about the "Bible" is anachronistic. The phrase "since childhood" (3:15) identifies the writings as, at the very least, the writings held sacred in Judaism. That is, they are the writings known to Christians now as the Old Testament.

With the Pauline influence on this epistle (whether or not Paul is the author), it would be nearly impossible for the writer to say that the Old Testament writings had the ability to bring one to salvation through Faith in Christ. That would contradict what Paul says rather clearly in Romans, would say something radically different than the Book of Hebrews, and would even challenge the theology of James. So, it cannot be that the writer here is declaring that the Bible can be a vehicle for salvation, as if it had some power apart from the community of Faith and God working in it. This is not any kind of reference to the Bible being able to bring sometime into salvation, in terms of what we mean by "getting people saved." It does not even imply that the Bible alone has "some special ability I don’t have in and of myself to persuade souls." The "sacred writings" here only function within the larger community of faith along with the testimony and teachings of the apostles and other members of the community.
--------
The addition of "through faith in Jesus Christ" serves to clarify that this is a Christian activity. That is, the wisdom concerning salvation is not the wisdom of Judaism, but the completion of the revelation of God through the testimony of the Gospel. The continued use of the "sacred writings" and the "scripture" by Timothy and his community is not for the purpose of "getting people saved" but to make them wise concerning God’s work of salvation proclaimed in the Gospel message, to help them continue to mature in the Faith of which they are already a part. That is still the primary purpose of the Bible today.

So, rather than affirming any particular doctrine of inspiration of Scripture, this passage does almost the opposite. That is, it does not affirm the absolute authority of Scripture as somehow dictated by God and therefore containing some special power in the lives of people.
Rather, it places Scripture, inspired though it is, within a larger context of a community of Faith that uses the teachings of Scripture to instruct growing Christians.




Hi Wardendresden :

This was a wonderful quote. I simply wanted to add the specific point that Jamnia was NOT involved in any official (or unofficial) determination of any canon but rather it involved a few specific individuals who argued over whether a very few books "defiled the hands". This was actually a euphamism for which books were holy enough to require one to wash their hands before handling them.

At any rate, I am not sure why "Jamnia" ever rated enough to be used like someone "name dropping" at a party. When one actually looks at Jamnia (rather than uses it as "prop" to support their theology), it was quite unimportant to any canon.

As opposed to Jamnia, the wonderful and expanding databank provided by the Dead Sea Scrolls and their group have expanded the concept of a much broader group of texts that were considered sacred anciently, as well as given us a model for why the early Jewish texts were edited in certain ways.


MysticPhD : In the same vein that I liked Wardendresden's context, I think your simple, but profound point of context was quite good.

too soon to rep you both ...

Clear
φυσεω
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Old 10-11-2013, 10:52 PM
 
21,877 posts, read 16,702,058 times
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The topic of this thread is the place of the Word of God in Worship. I do not think the OP intended to turn this thread into a debate on whether the Bible is inspired or inerrant. Posts #7 and 8 are off topic in my opinion.
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Old 10-12-2013, 12:31 AM
 
Location: Denver, CO
9,289 posts, read 5,497,161 times
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Default No, the quote is right on topic

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
The topic of this thread is the place of the Word of God in Worship. I do not think the OP intended to turn this thread into a debate on whether the Bible is inspired or inerrant. Posts #7 and 8 are off topic in my opinion.
What is the place of the Word of God in worship?

So, rather than affirming any particular doctrine of inspiration of Scripture, this passage does almost the opposite. That is, it does not affirm the absolute authority of Scripture as somehow dictated by God and therefore containing some special power in the lives of people. Rather, it places Scripture, inspired though it is, within a larger context of a community of Faith that uses the teachings of Scripture to instruct growing Christians.

It means that Scripture has a PLACE in worship within a community of faith, but Scripture is NOT worship, a mistake made by a large number of people naming Christ as Master, but instead replacing Him with Scripture. MysticPhD is dead on when he points out that there is a difference between "every word which proceeds out of the MOUTH of God," as opposed to mixing that up with scripture on paper as opposed to a New Covenant written in the heart.

When Scripture is then quoted out of historical context with the intention to present a particular view of the written word, then those that have an alternate viewpoint and faith have a spiritual obligation to point out the historicity of the quoted verses and how they have been lifted out of historical context to mean something different from what the authors intended---- and perhaps they DO mean something different. But it takes a mystical catalyst to leap from the historical context to that other position, something that many of us are unwilling to do.
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Old 10-12-2013, 05:18 AM
 
400 posts, read 452,521 times
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I'm not familiar with any church that views Scripture as worship and thinks The Bible saves. Do you?

I differ with Bratcher's interpretation and offer this on 2 Timothy 3:16.

Regarding 2 Timothy 3:16

Snippet:
[quote] [color=#001320]All scripture—Greek, "Every Scripture," that is, Scripture in its every part. However, English Version is sustained, though the Greek article be wanting, by the technical use of the term "Scripture" being so well known as not to need the article (compare Greek, Eph 3:15; 2:21). The Greek is never used of writings in general, but only of the sacred Scriptures. The position of the two Greek adjectives closely united by "and," forbids our taking the one as an epithet, the other as predicated and translated as Alford and Ellicott. "Every Scripture given by inspiration of God is also profitable." Vulgate and the best manuscripts, favor English Version. Clearly the adjectives are so closely connected that as surely as one is a predicate, the other must be so too. Alford admits his translation to be harsh, though legitimate. Moderator cut: deleted

Source:
From [i][u]John Gill's Exposition of The Bible (NT)[

Last edited by june 7th; 10-12-2013 at 09:15 AM.. Reason: Modified to adhere to CD's copyright rules
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