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Old 10-16-2013, 09:38 AM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
I've never had someone call me a demon in a more polite and veiled manner.
Jesus was more blunt ... is that what you prefer?
Jesus said there are types of children:
  1. children of God
  2. children of the devil
and Jesus said those who are children of the devil are so ...
"Because you are unable to hear what I say.
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires.
He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.
When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.
Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me! " John 8:43-45
and Satan is called a "roaring lion"
"Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour" 1 Peter 5:8
which everybody knows that a lion doesn't attack one of it's own.

It's as obvious as it can get that Jesus knew what he was saying (John 8:43-45). And if one reads all the scriptures about Satan and yet comes away with all the bravado you are doing, then what can be concluded of your statements?

Last edited by twin.spin; 10-16-2013 at 09:58 AM.. Reason: spacing problems
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Old 10-16-2013, 01:05 PM
 
284 posts, read 252,348 times
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Marlbron said in post # 37 : “I think Mike made a mistake. Hope he is humble enough to admit it. “

Thank you for the kind words as well as this opinion Marlbron.

I agree that Mike555 made a mistake regarding his exegesis of the bible in Ephesians 1:21. I was hoping that we could determine the reason and thinking (or lack thereof) for his mistake. I think that the consequences of making such mistakes are quite small if we simply recognize them, admit them, and then go on. I do not think others expect perfection from us.

The social difficulties and discomforts come more from trying to cover up what is already obvious to others, or hide from or worse, trying to justify a mistake that is already obvious to others. Such a tactic results in the result is loss of credibility and embarrassment and there is no moral or maturational growth in doing such things. These are things we simply learn as we mature and I do not think Mike555 is alone. I have made the exact same kind of mistakes.

One difficulty for us in a social forum, is that this often is a “pattern” with some individuals who, in their attempt to maintain pride, lose credibility and waste valuable time in offering posts that attempt to side track us from the issue at hand, but then merely end up wasting valuable time.

For example, Mike555’s last post # 39 still does not tell any of us what I have been asking an answer to: Specifically, about mike555’s exegesis of Ephesians 1:21 and how and why he claimed shows that “angels are arranged in differing ranks”. Instead, it is an example of another post that has wasted more time and doesn’t fool anyone and takes one deeper in the path of trying to cover up what is already been obvious to discerning readers.

For example, In post # 39 :
Mike555 repeats that his claim that Eph 1:21 tells us “God has arranged the angelic realm in differing ranks” comes from post #1. Telling us what we already knew wastes our time AND, still,
Mike555
, doesn’t explain his strange exegesis of Eph 1:21

Mike555
tells us in this post, that the reference to Eph 1:21 “is part of the quotation from” a commentary. One cannot tell if Mike555 is trying to imply that the author of the commentary is to blame for this error. In any case, it wastes more time since Mike555s still avoids any explanation of his strange exegesis of Eph 1:21 where he says it means “God has arranged the angelic realm in differing ranks”.

Mike555
also shows us that other verses are available to support the doctrine. This is yet more wasted time since he and I have both already shown other texts displaying the doctrine. Still, Mike555 doesn’t explain his strange exegesis of Eph 1:21 when he says it means “God has arranged the angelic realm in differing ranks” .

In a charitable assumption, perhaps Mike555 assumed other verses would help his situation. He simply doesn’t tell us why he offered irrelevant data to us. However, such data do not explain his strange and specific exegesis of Eph 1:21 “God has arranged the angelic realm in differing ranks”. Instead we’ve spent multiple posts avoiding any explanation as to why he feels Eph 1:21 meant that “God has arranged the angelic realm in differing ranks” .

By this point, readers are certainly able to come to their own conclusions as to why we cannot get a direct and detailed answer to this question from Mike555. I don't think further requests for information will be any more fruitful, therefore I think it is simply time to move on.



Clear
φιφυσεω
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Old 10-16-2013, 01:08 PM
 
284 posts, read 252,348 times
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POST ONE OF TWO

In the Opening Post : Mike555 theorized : “It is Satan's intention to prove to God that he can rule this world in an orderly manner.” Mike555 quote verses supporting the proposition that “Satan IS the ruler of this world”; that Satan is called “the prince of the power of the air”; that Satan “deceives the nations” and that Satan “influences rulers”.

I did not see any data however, that supports the interpretation and doctrine that Satan wants “to prove to God that he can rule this world in an orderly manner.” So I asked about this point.

In post # 16 Clear lens asked : “ If an intelligent Satan wants to prove he can rule in an orderly manner, then how does his rebellion against order and against rational and calm civility, help demonstrate the principle you say Satan wants to demonstrate? I don’t believe this premise will work as it stands and I think this part of your theory will need some tweaking and some data as well. ”

In post # 24, Mike555 explained that he only offered a small portion of data that was available to him.






Forum members :


I do not think that an Intelligent and clever Satan simply “wants to prove he can rule this world in an orderly manner”. Chuckmann , in post # 38 pointed out that “God banished Satan to hell forever and ever after that great battle that occurs only in Enoch, a non-canonical book.” Historically, Chuckmann is (in the main) correct regarding the fact that Satan was banished forever from heaven though he was incorrect regarding the history concerning Lucifers fall and his becoming “Satan”, an enemy to God.

Perhaps an overview of the main historical version of Satan’s Fall in early Judeo-Christian texts will give us a context.




A HISTORICAL OVERVIEW OF THE EARLY JUDEO-CHRISTIAN DESCRIPTIONS OF THE FALL OF LUCIFER



I think it is an important historical context to keep in mind that Lucifer’s “fall” did not happen in a vacuum but it occurred in the context of several controversies
, the most famous one in the vast majority of early Judeo-Christian texts had to do with the honoring of Adam, which itself takes place in the greater context of God the Fathers Plan. To best understand this cascade of events, I think one should start with a historical overview God’s original plan inside early traditions and then consider specific events concerning Lucifer.

It is contextually important to understand that, to this ancient christian theology :

1) The spirits of angels, men and God existed prior to mortality
2) God the Father’s plan entailed moral advancement of the spirits of men
3) The Honoring of Adam for inaugurating mortality was logical in view of his role in God’s plan for mankind
4) Lucifer’s “rebellion” was more than a refusal to “honor Adam”.
5) Lucifer’s “punishment” relates to his rebellion against the plan AND God himself
6) Lucifer’s current “dominion” plays a “role” in God’s ultimate plan



Without considering conditions PRIOR to Lucifer’s rebellion, then the rebellion cannot be understood as the ancient Christians (who wrote the texts) understood it. Without considering the nature of the rebellion, then Lucifer’s punishment and his current dominion cannot be understood as the ancient Christians understood and taught such doctrines.



A) GOD THE FATHER’S PLAN FOR THE SPIRITS OF MANKIND (WHICH LUCIFER ULTIMATELY REBELS AGAINST)

In early Judeo-Christian tradition, long before the creation of this world, God was in the midst of spirits. Early textual testimonies describe innumerable spirits existing in “heaven” before creation and, they describe what God intended to do with these innumerable spirits.

Regarding his vision of pre-creation heaven, Enoch records : "
No one could come near unto him [God the Father] from among those that surrounded the tens of millions (that stood) before him". (1 En 14:23). Enoch continues :
"I saw a hundred thousand times a hundred thousand, ten million times ten million, an innumerable and uncountable (multitude) who stand before the glory of the Lord of the Spirits". (1 Enoch 40:1-2)"

At the time that the Holy One, be blessed, was about to create the world, he decided to fashion all the souls which would in due course be dealt out to the children of men, .... Scrutinizing each, he saw that among them some would fall into evil ways in the world. Each one in it’s due time the Holy One, be blessed, bade come to him, and then said: “Go now, descend into this that this place, into this and this body.” (The Zohar - The Destiny of the Soul)
God was in the midst of spirits of all the spirits who ever lived or will live on this earth according to such early texts.




B) BECAUSE GOD WAS INTELLIGENT AND POSSESSED POWER AND CHARITY, HE DEVISED A PLAN SO AS TO ALLOW OTHER SPIRITS TO ADVANCE

The ancient Jewish doctrine that God had instituted a divine plan is interwoven into multiple texts : "
Before all things came to be, he [God] has ordered all their designs" (Dead Sea Scrolls 4Q255-264)

....I (the Father), in the midst of the light (glory), moved around in the invisible things, like one of them, as the sun moves around from east to west and from west to east. But the sun has rest; yet I did not find rest, because everything was not yet created. And I thought up the idea of establishing a foundation, to create a visible creation." (2nd Enoch 24:4)

The Prophet Enoch describes the earliest stages of this plan before it was known among the heavenly host : "for not even to my angels have I explained my secrets, nor related to them their origin, nor my endless and inconceivable creation which I conceived." (2nd Enoch 24:3)

In such descriptions of his Plan, God the Father seems to take great care in both the planning of and in ensuring the deep involvement of the Heavenly Hosts (for whose benefit the plan existed).

Though these texts tell us that all the spirits of men existed before the creation of the earth, the spirits were in no way equals (just as we are not equal now). Among them were the more intelligent and gifted; i.e. those who were more full of grace and truth than others. In addition to Lucifer, God the Father and Adam, all other key players are all present in this pre-mortal realm. In Enoch’s vision, he also see’s the pre-mortal Jesus with the Father. Upon seeing the two together, Enoch asks who this individual (Jesus) is and what role he has in the Father's Plan :
"At that place, I saw the Beginning of days [i.e. the Father] And his head was white like wool, and there was with him another individual, whose face was like that of a human being. His countenance was full of grace like that of one among the holy angels. And I asked the one – from among the angels –who was going with me,..."Who is this and from where could he be, and for what reason does he go with him who precedes time?" And he answered me and said to me, "This is the Son of Man, to whom belongs righteousness, and with whom righteousness dwells...the Lord of the spirits has chosen him, and he is destined to be victorious before the Lord of the spirits in eternal uprightness...." (1 Enoch 46:1-4)

It is in this context that the Apostolic Father Ignatius taught that among those spirits was "Jesus...who before the ages was with the father..” (Ignatius :6:1). The ancient records show the Father and Jesus, from early on, both possessed a great similarity and unity of Purpose. Jesus was given greater authority and administrated much of the Father’s plan from early on (God’s "right hand" was one of the Pre-Creation Jesus’ appellations). Diogenes relates this ancient doctrine : "And when he revealed it (his plan) through his beloved Child and made known the things prepared from the beginning, he gave us to share in his benefits and to see and understand things which none of [us] ever would have expected.. So then, having already planned everything in his mind together with his child... (Diog 301:8-11)




C) DESPITE CONCERNS, THE PLAN WAS GENERALLY, RECEIVED JOYOUSLY

Ancient pre-creation histories describe that the Father’s plan, revealed to these spirits before the foundations of the earth were laid was generally joyously received. God’s question to Job was not merely rhetorical, but was a contextual reminder to Job of an actual occurrence.
"Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding. Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it? Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof; When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy? (Job 38:4-7)

The advancement entailed by God's plan was something the spirits wanted : Enoch says that he saw :
"...the fountain of righteousness,...surrounded completely by numerous fountains of wisdom. All the thirsty ones drink (of the water) and become filled with wisdom. (Then) their dwelling places become with the holy, righteous, and elect ones.‘

Who among these spirits would not have wanted to drink from that same wisdom and take their place with others who were holy, righteous and elect?

The Jewish Zohar relates mortality to a moral education received by coming to mortality by an example of an earthly equivalent:


...why do they [the spirits of mankind] descend to this world only to be taken thence [back to heaven] at some future time? “This may be explained by way of a simile: A king has a son whom he sends to a village to be educated until he shall have been initiated into the ways of the palace. When the king is informed that his son is now come to maturity, the king, out of his love, sends the matron his mother to bring him back into the palace, and there the king rejoices with him every day..... “ (The zohar - A seal upon your heart)




D) GOD’S PLAN CONTINUED TO PROGRESS

God’s plan moved forward and preparations were made over a great deal of time including a physical creation in preparation for mortality.

Though multiple creation accounts exist, the earlier Christian accounts make it clear both that God created the Planets and Stars (often translated “orbs” or “circles”) out of “lessor”, or more chaotic material, and, importantly, he commissioned the Pre-creation Jesus (Often called “the word” or his “right hand”) to assist him and administrate over this material creation of an earth which will then be populated with embodied spirits for their education and testing.

Thus the early Synagogal prayer reflects this doctrine : “
We give thanks to you, O God and Father of Jesus our Savior...O Master Almighty, the God of the universe, you created the world and what is in it through him,... (Hellenistic Synagogal Prayers - thanksgiving following Communion (aposCon 7.26. 1-3) Or prayer #3 “ Blessed are you, O Lord, King of the ages, who through Christ made everything, and through him in the beginning ordered that which was unprepared” (i.e. chaotic matter) (#3 prayer That meditates upon God’s Manifold Creative Power) (aposCon 7.34.1-8) or prayer #4 that addresses God the Father : “For you are the Father of wisdom, the Creator, as cause, of the creative workmanship through a Mediator....” #4 (aposCon 7.35.1-10);

The Jewish Geninza 4Q texts are clear that, despite delegation of important roles, the plan IS the Father’s plan and that he “
determined all your works before you created them, together with the host of your spirits and the assembly of your holy ones… - all your designs for the end of time..” God counsels with those whose involvement he wants, but it remains God the Father's plan : “Moreover the Holy One, blessed be he, does nothing in his world without first taking counsel with them; then he acts, as it is written” (3Enoch :4 283). This early Jewish teaching that the physical creation was accomplished for the purpose of advancing mankind is the same tradition as the early Christians held. New Testament Hermas taught :

...don’t you understand how great and mighty and marvelous God’s glory is, because he created the world for the sake of man, and subjected all his creation to man..” (Her 47:2-4).

The physical creation of ancient accounts was accomplished by taking “lessor” or more chaotic matter, and organizing it into a “higher” or more organized and purposeful form such as the organized earth had. Old Testament Enoch describes this process:

And I called out a second time into the very lowest things, and I said, ‘Let one of the (in)visible things come out visibly, solid.’..” (2nd Enoch 26:1).

From this lesser organized, chaotic debris, the earth and other planets were formed : And thus I made solid the heavenly circles (orbs). ...And from the rocks I assembled the dry land; and I called the dry land Earth. “ (2nd Enoch 28:1-2).

And thus, in company with the Pre-Mortal spirit of Jesus (called "the word” or “the right hand” in some accounts), the Father accomplished creation.

I said, “O Lord, you spoke at the beginning of creation, and said on the first day, ‘Let heaven and earth be made, ‘ and your word accomplished the work...Again, on the second day, you created the spirit of the firmament and commanded him to divide and separate the waters...On the third day you commanded the waters to be gather together...For your word went forth, and at once the work was done.“ (4th Enoch 3:38-42).

I believe that is it partly this closely unified and joint administration between God the Father and his Son that contributes to much of the later confusion between Father and Son in later doctrines. In such early texts it is clearly taught that they are two individuals that are profoundly unified (i.e. "one') in purpose.


It is Baruch that reminds us of the innate ability of the spirit of men to advance in knowledge consistent with God’s plan. He says :
For the nature of men is always changeable. For as we were once, we are no longer, and as we are now, we shall not remain in the future. For if an end of all things had not been prepared, their beginning would have been senseless”. (2 Baruch 21:16-17)

Even at this early, less sophisticated stage of existence, spirits were able to exercise their agency. Thus the spirits of men were able to exercise choice to take part in this plan despite difficulties they will experience in mortality (as Job was reminded), just as they are allowed moral choice in this life.

Given the grandeur and the pure intent and profound implications of God’s plan for mankind, it may start to make some sense of what it meant for Lucifer, not only to refuse to take part in the plan, but to openly rebel against the plan, and ultimately rebel against God the Father himself.




E) THE HONORING OF ADAM FOR HIS PLACE IN INAUGURATING GOD’S PLAN FOR MANKIND


It ought to be perfectly clear that as milestones were reached in the moving forward of God’s Plan for the spirits of mankind, the inauguration of mortality was an incredibly important phase that all spirits had long been anticipating. Thus, the “honoring of Adam” was not simply an arbitrary and spontaneous “office party” thrown at a whim, but it was a recognition of the culmination of organization and creation over a great deal of time and the inauguration of the opening phase of mortality of all mankind..

The jewish Haggadah describes the “wary reluctance” some souls experienced to leave a pre-mortal “heaven” to be born into mortality. Speaking this sort of “reluctance” the Zohar describes how God, tells a spirit to “
Go now, descend into this and that place, into this and this body.” Yet often enough the soul would reply: “Lord of the world, I am content to remain in this realm, , and have no wish to depart to some other, where I shall be in thralldom, and become stained.” Whereupon the Holy One, be blessed, would reply: “Your destiny is, and has been from the day of thy forming, to go into that world.” (The Zohar - The Destiny of the Soul)

Such “unconfidence” is not “rebellion” and such souls are given encouragement and still sent into mortality through birth according to God’s plan. However, just as “reluctance” is not “rebellion”, Lucifer’s “rebellion” was not merely “reluctance”. Lucifer’s rebellion was described as a willful and confident full fledged disagreement which evolved into a plan for an asaultive counter “coup” having a DIFFERENT administration under a DIFFERENT King and DIFFERENT goals to the ultimate effect of nullifying God’s initial plan. In the context of controversies such as Lucifer’s “last straw” over Adam, one can better understand the sparks that made up the fires of the Rebellion or “war in heaven” itself.

In reference to a different, earlier controversy regarding the knowledge, that IF man, having free will, was sent to earth, then mankind would certainly commit moral atrocities. This was known long before the fall of Adam, and in fact, long before Adam was placed into the Garden. 3rd Enoch relates one of the fallen angels complaints against God the Father and his plan :

"Then three of the ministering angels, Uzzah, Azzah, and Aza’el, came and laid charges against me in the heavenly height. They said before the Holy One, blessed be he, ‘Lord of the Universe, did not the primeval ones give you good advice when they said, Do not create man!’ The Holy One, blessed be he, replied, ‘I have made and will sustain him; I will carry and deliver him.’ (3rd Enoch 4:6)

Such references hint of the other controversies and together, they offer a coherent history regarding such related controversies and their relationship to Lucifers Fall.

As the earth was created and it’s preparations finished and the time arrived for God’s plan to be inaugurated, the mood among the hosts of heaven becomes one of anticipation and excitement. It is under these circumstance that the body for Adam is created and joined to his spirit and God commanded that Adam was to be honored for his role in inaugurating God’s plan upon the earth. Michael calls all the angels to honor Adam for what he is about to do. A seemingly “fed up” Lucifer arrives to the occasion with a bad attitude.

It is in such a context that later, the fallen Lucifer later explained to the fallen Adam :


..Michael brought you and made (us) worship you in the sight of God, and the Lord God said, ‘Behold Adam! I have made you in our image and likeness.’ And I answered, ‘I do not worship Adam.’ ...’Why do you compel me? I will not worship one inferior and subsequent to me. I am prior to him in creation; before he was made, I was already made. He ought to worship me.’ .... When they heard this, other angels who were under me refused to worship him. And Michael asserted, ‘Worship the image of God. But if now you will not worship, the Lord God will be wrathful with you.’ And I said, ‘If he be wrathful with me, I will set my throne above the stars of heaven and will be like the Most High.” (Life of Adam and Eve (Vita) 12: 1-2, 13:13, 14:2-3; 15:1-3)

POST TWO OF TWO FOLLOW

Last edited by Clear lens; 10-16-2013 at 01:23 PM..
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Old 10-16-2013, 01:15 PM
 
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POST TWO OF TWO


F) LUCIFER’S REFUSAL TO HONOR ADAM WAS AN ORTHODOX TEACHING IN EARLY CHRISTIAN RELIGION

Regarding the reference to Lucifer’s refusal to honor Adam, it is important to me that readers understand that I did not simply pick out a single “obscure” reference describing this story. Rather, this early doctrine was taught and described in many texts over a great deal of time and space.

For examples: Sedrach relates :
You commanded your angels to worship [honor] Adam, but he who was first among the angels disobeyed your order and did not worship him: and so you banished him because he transgressed your commandment and did not come forth (to worship) the creation of your hands." (The Apocalypse of Sedrach 5:1-7)

The Christian text “Life of Adam and Eve” relates the same incident : Speaking to Adam, the Devil said : ...because of you I am expelled and deprived of my glory which I had in the heavens in the midst of angels, and because of you I was cast out onto the earth.” 2 Adam answered, “What have I done to you, and what is my blame with you? Ch 13 “The devil replied,...It is because of you that I have been thrown out of there. 2 When .......Michael brought you and made (us) worship you in the sight of God, and the Lord God said, ‘Behold Adam! I have made you in our image and likeness.’ Ch 14 3 And I answered, ‘I do not worship Adam.’ ...’Why do you compel me? I will not worship one inferior and subsequent to me. I am prior to him in creation; before he was made, I was already made. He ought to worship me.’ 15 1 When they heard this, other angels who were under me refused to worship him. (Life of Adam and Eve (Vita) 12: 1-2, 13:13, 14:2-3; 15:1-3; 16:1-3)

The early Christian Text “Cave of Treasures” relates : And when the prince of the lower order of angels saw what great majesty had been given unto Adam, he was jealous of him from that day, and he did not wish to worship him. And he said unto his hosts, "Ye shall not worship him, and ye shall not praise him with the angels. It is meet that ye should worship me, because I am fire and spirit; and not that I should worship a thing of dust, which hath been fashioned of fine dust."

Jewish Enoch relates, in the context of this Lucifer’s rebellion : the devil understood how I wished to create another world, so that everything could be subjected to Adam on the earth, to rule and reign over it. ....And he became aware of his condemnation and of the sin which he sinned previously. 6 And that is why he thought up the scheme against Adam. (2nd Enoch 31:2-8, 32:1)

Jewish Haggadah (having Talmudic origins) also relates : The extraordinary qualities with which Adam was blessed, physical and spiritual as well, aroused the envy of the angels...After Adam had been endowed with a soul, God invited all the angels to come and pay him reverence and homage. Satan, the greatest of the angels in heaven,....refused to pay heed to the behest of God, saying, “You created us angels from the splendor of the Shekinah, and now you command us to cast ourselves down before the creature which you fashioned out of the dust of the ground!” God answered, “Yet this dust of the ground has more wisdom and understanding than you.”... (The Haggadah -The Fall of Satan)

The text then relates the "battle of wits" between Lucifers spirit and Adam's spirit where Lucifer is bested and loses "face".

Christian Bartholomew also confirms the story as Lucifer says : And when I came from the ends of the world, Michael said to me: ‘Worship the image of God which he has made in his own likeness.’ But I said: ‘I am fire of fire. I was the first angel to be formed, and shall I worship clay and matter?” And Michael said to me: ‘Worship, lest god be angry with you.’ I answered: ‘God will not be angry with me, but I will set up my throne over against his throne, and shall be as he is [cf. Isa. 14:14]. ‘ then god was angry with me and cast me down,...” (The Gospel of Bartholomew Ch IV)

This doctrinal controversy is not simply Jewish and Christian in it’s nature, but it’s also confirmed by the Sixth Century Quran text :
"..And (remember) when your Lord said to the angels: "I am going to create a man (Adam) from sounding clay of altered black smooth mud. So, when I have fashioned him completely and breathed into him (Adam) the soul which I created for him, then fall (you) down prostrating yourselves unto him." So, the angels prostrated themselves, all of them together. Except Iblis (Satan), - he refused to be among the prostrators. (Sura 15:28-31)

In Sura 20 : “ And (remember) when We said to the angels: "Prostrate yourselves to Adam." They prostrated (all) except Iblis (Satan), who refused. (Sura 20:116)

In Sura 38 : “
(Remember) when your Lord said to the angels: "Truly, I am going to create man from clay". So when I have fashioned him and breathed into him (his) soul created by Me, then you fall down prostrate to him." So the angels prostrated themselves, all of them: Except Iblis (Satan) he was proud and was one of the disbelievers. (Sura 38:71-74)

In Sura 7 : And surely, We created you (your father Adam) and then gave you shape (the noble shape of a human being), then We told the angels, "Prostrate to Adam", and they prostrated, except Iblis (Satan), he refused to be of those who prostrate. (Allah) said: "What prevented you (O Iblis) that you did not prostrate, when I commanded you?" Iblis said: "I am better than him (Adam), You created me from fire, and him You created from clay." (Sura 7:11-12)

In Sura 18 : And (remember) when We said to the angels; "Prostrate to Adam." So they prostrated except Iblis (Satan). He was one of the jinns; he disobeyed the Command of his Lord.... (Sura 18:50)

The point in repeating this doctrine from so many different ancient sources and versions is to show that this specific controversy and it’s relation to the doctrine of the “Origin” of Satan, is VERY ancient, the doctrine is VERY widespread among a large group of ancient literature, and the doctrine is VERY “orthodox” to the ancient Christians and other religious groups as well.




G) LUCIFER’S REFUSAL BECOMES A REBELLION

As I’ve pointed out, there are many, many confirming versions of this same story. In these early christian texts, the anger and frustration of Lucifer does not remain a private gripe, but becomes an open rebellion.

”... one from the order of the archangels deviated, together with the division that was under his authority. He thought up the impossible idea, that he might place his throne higher than the clouds which are above the earth, and that he might become equal to my power. 5 And I hurled him out from the height, together with his angels.” (2nd Enoch 29:3-5)

The Book of John the evangelist confirms Satan’s presumption in similar language “He set his seat above the clouds of heaven”. Bartholemew records this occurrence in almost the same words as the other versions : “I will set my throne over against his throne” (bar 4:55) ;

It is for carrying out the actual plan and organized attempt to “
set up [his] throne above the stars of heaven and ..be like the Most High” that Lucifer was punished. (“Stars” was a euphamism for the greatest angels). Speaking of Lucifer and the angels who allied with him the ancient psalm read :
Now as they were warring with each other, they made bold to attack the land of Light, considering themselves capable of conquering it. Yet they know not that what they thought will recoil upon their own heads. But there was a host of angels in the Land of Light which possessed the power to issue forth and overcome the enemy of the Father, whom it pleased that through the Word that he would send, he should subdue the rebels who desired to raise themselves above what was more exalted than they.... (The Coptic Psalm-book - Let us worship the spirit of the paraclete) Psalm 223 (allberry 9-11) p 328; )

This attempted “coup” would have divided heaven and created a rival Kingship over a rival group in heaven. It was an attempt to set up a rival administration with it’s own rival plan for man. This was no mere show of minor “disloyalty”. Also, one should note the doctrine that the father delegated the successful battle which overcame Lucifer “through the Word” (who was his son). The earthly Devil had undergone multiple prior perceived offenses as the pre-mortal Lucifer. AND, his memories of pre-mortal happenings were not “veiled” from him, as Adams were. Certain battle lines were drawn long, long ago.




H) THE NATURE OF LUCIFER’S REBELLION IN THE CONTEXT OF GOD THE FATHER’S PLAN.

The nature of Lucifer’s punishment indicates the seriousness of what he did : When Enoch tells the fallen angel Azaz’el that “
There will not be peace unto you; a grave judgment has come upon you. They will put you in bonds because you have taught injustice (1st Enoch 13:1-3), Enoch is not speaking of mere “naughtiness” or mere “disagreement” with God’s plan. Such fallen angels were told “judgment is passed upon you. 5 From now on you will not be able to ascend into heaven unto all eternity, (1st Enoch 14:3-5) because their rebellion had much greater ramifications than simple disagreement with God.

It is in this larger set of contexts that it was said : And the Rebel meditating these things Fol. 5b, col. 2 would not render obedience to God, and of his own free will he asserted his independence and separated himself from God. But he was - swept away out of heaven and fell, and the fall of himself and of all his company from heaven took place ...because he turned aside from the right way, ... he lost the apparel of his glory. And behold, from that time until the present day, he and all his hosts have been stripped of their apparel, (Cave of Treasures, chapt on “The Revolt of Satan”)

It’s unnecessary to the purpose of this post to discussed the symbolism of Lucifer’s apparel, his armor, and the “names” which were written in his hand (as the christian Abbaton also describes in greater detail), but it’s apparent that Lucifer unwillingly undergoes a ritual removal of his powers and authorities and authority for leadership and, with those angels who took part in his planned rebellion, he is cast down into the earth. However, such histories lend sense and context and confirmation to other histories such as Apocalypse of abraham when Azaz’el is told regarding Abraham “...shame on you Azazel! For Abraham’s portion is in heaven, and yours is on earth, for you have selected here, (and) become enamored of the dwelling place of your blemish. .... For behold, the garment which in heaven was formerly yours has been set aside for him, and the corruption which was on him has gone over to you.” (The Apocalypse of Abraham 13: 4,5,7-14)

Once Lucifer finds himself and his fallen angels on the earth, his own recognition and understanding and sense of what he had done increased, but this recognition was not associated with remorse nor repentance, but rather with an obstinate resolve and desire and plan for revenge (and other motives) and for continuing his rebellion.


..he fled from heaven; Sotona, because his name was satanail. 5 In this way he became different from the angels. His nature did not change, (but) his thought did, since his consciousness of righteous and sinful things changed. And he became aware of his condemnation and of the sin which he sinned previously. 6 And that is why he thought up the scheme against Adam." (2nd Enoch 31:2-8, 32:1)


I hope that it is clear that the early Christian doctrines and texts DID have a sensible concept of the origin and actions of the Devil and for some of the underlying motives as to why Lucifer battles against God and God's plan for the moral education of those among mankind who are willing and wanting to live by the moral laws which will ultimately allow them to live in happiness and harmony.

Compared to modern theories (or lack of theories), the ancient Christian doctrines were, I think, more coherent and more logical and represented a more accurate view of the Devils origin. Historians and Restorationists will be aware of many such ancient doctrines, but most other christianities do not have background in early Judao-Christian doctrines surrounding the fall of Lucifer.


I failed to point out shifts in names or appellations of the key players.

Just as the mortal Jesus was called by different names or appellations in his pre-mortal roles (e.g. "The Right Hand", "the righteous one", "the creator", occasionally "the Father" - which is confusing since he is normally "the son", etc), often attached to specific and varying roles he plays, Lucifer and others have different names as well in different texts.

In ancient Christian Texts he is most often "
Lucifer" before his fall, and then Satan (or devil, etc) AFTER his fall from heaven. In The Holy Quran, Satan is often referred to as "Iblis". In Jewish records Satan is represented by varying names but Azaz'el, in the quote in the posts above, also refers to Satan. I hope the mixing of various names for Lucifer/Satan/Devil was not confusing. Historians are used to such transitions, but the shift in appellations or names sometimes causes confusion if one is not used to reading them in the ancient literature.

I am speaking from memory on this point, but the great Milton also created another appellation that relates to Lucifers important role in God's plan and that, despite Lucifer's unwillingness, his obstanant rebellion serves the very purposes of God.

Just as Abraham asked why God has any association with Lucifer, the Prophet Sedrach also wondered at the purpose underlying the irony of God, letting Lucifer live :
Sedrach said to him. “It was by your will that Adam was deceived, my master. You commanded your angels to worship Adam, but he who was first among the angels disobeyed your order and did not worship him: and so you banished him because he transgressed your commandment and did not come forth (to worship) the creation of your hands. If you loved man, why did you not kill the devil, the artificer of all iniquity? Who can fight against an invisible spirit? He enters the hearts of men like a smoke and teaches them all kinds of sin. He even fights against you, the immortal God, and so what can pitiful man do against him..... (The Apocalypse of Sedrach 5:1-7)


I suppose it would take several posts to discuss the importance of Lucifers role WITHIN God's plan, but I think the Dead Sea Scrolls are clear regarding Lucifer's necessary role but the early Jews taught regarding the struggle between Good and Evil : The character and fate of all humankind reside with these spirits. All the hosts of humanity, generation by generation, are heirs to these spiritual divisions, walking according to their ways; ... God has appointed these spirits as equals until the last age, and set an everlasting enmity between their divisions. False deeds are thus an abomination to the truth, whereas all the ways of truth are for perversity equally a disgrace. Fierce dispute attends ever point of decision, for they can never agree. In his mysterious insight and glorious wisdom God has countenanced an era in which perversity triumphs, but at the time appointed for visitation He shall destroy such forever. Then shall truth come forth in victory upon the earth. [...] Until now the spirits of truth and perversity have contended within the human heart. All people walk in both wisdom and foolishness. As is a person’s endowment of truth and righteousness, so shall he hate perversity; conversely, in proportion to bequest in the lot of evil, one will act wickedly and abominate truth. God has appointed these spirits as equals until the time of decree and renewal. He foreknows the outworking of their deeds for all the ages of eternity. He has granted them dominion over humanity, so imparting knowledge of good and evil, deciding the fate of every living being by the measure of which spirit predominates in him, until the day of the appointed visitation.” CHARTER OF A JEWISH SECTARIAN ASSOCIATION 1QS, 4Q255-264a, 5Q11 Col 4 vs 15-26

In this early model, Mankind are placed in the middle of good and evil, and allowed their own choice. In this model, Mankind's fate is decided by how they used their free will and choice in doing good and evil and which of the two come to predominate in an individuals heart. We are ultimately punished for the evil we chose to do, and ultimately rewarded for the good that we chose to do.

I honestly wish you the very best journey in coming to your own knowledge and beliefs regarding the origin and role of evil in God's plan and why God allows it to exist to the point that it serves his purpose. At any rate, I do not think that Lucifers motive in disorder and terror and dispicable evil that he causes is that he wants to demonstrate to God that he can rule this world "in an orderly manner" as the Opening Post theorizes.


Clear

φιφυσεω

Last edited by Clear lens; 10-16-2013 at 01:26 PM..
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Old 10-16-2013, 01:22 PM
 
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So all that we have, all that we are, is the result of Satan's Plan?
Talk about living in the dark ages, where the light remains dim.
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Old 10-16-2013, 01:41 PM
 
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Originally Posted by bartstarr1960 View Post
Sometimes in our quest for knowledge we miss the forest for the trees.
And sometimes, until our tent is removed, we will miss the obvious.
That which is easily seen, recognized, or understood; and open to view or knowledge.

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Old 10-16-2013, 01:47 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Jerwade View Post
And sometimes, until our tent is removed, we will miss the obvious.
That which is easily seen, recognized, or understood; and open to view or knowledge.
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Old 10-16-2013, 01:59 PM
 
Location: New England
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Originally Posted by Jerwade View Post
Talk about living in the dark ages, where the light remains dim.

To enjoy the Light of God, we have to come out of the mentality of the dark ages of believing God is a God of war,wrath and destruction, that needs appeasing or face the consequences, which is the manner by which satan the dim light as deceived and held multitudes in fear throughout the ages.

Last edited by pcamps; 10-16-2013 at 03:04 PM..
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Old 10-16-2013, 02:44 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Clear lens View Post
Marlbron said in post # 37 : “I think Mike made a mistake. Hope he is humble enough to admit it. “

Thank you for the kind words as well as this opinion Marlbron.

I agree that Mike555 made a mistake regarding his exegesis of the bible in Ephesians 1:21. I was hoping that we could determine the reason and thinking (or lack thereof) for his mistake. I think that the consequences of making such mistakes are quite small if we simply recognize them, admit them, and then go on. I do not think others expect perfection from us.

The social difficulties and discomforts come more from trying to cover up what is already obvious to others, or hide from or worse, trying to justify a mistake that is already obvious to others. Such a tactic results in the result is loss of credibility and embarrassment and there is no moral or maturational growth in doing such things. These are things we simply learn as we mature and I do not think Mike555 is alone. I have made the exact same kind of mistakes.

One difficulty for us in a social forum, is that this often is a “pattern” with some individuals who, in their attempt to maintain pride, lose credibility and waste valuable time in offering posts that attempt to side track us from the issue at hand, but then merely end up wasting valuable time.

For example, Mike555’s last post # 39 still does not tell any of us what I have been asking an answer to: Specifically, about mike555’s exegesis of Ephesians 1:21 and how and why he claimed shows that “angels are arranged in differing ranks”. Instead, it is an example of another post that has wasted more time and doesn’t fool anyone and takes one deeper in the path of trying to cover up what is already been obvious to discerning readers.

For example, In post # 39 :
Mike555 repeats that his claim that Eph 1:21 tells us “God has arranged the angelic realm in differing ranks” comes from post #1. Telling us what we already knew wastes our time AND, still,
Mike555
, doesn’t explain his strange exegesis of Eph 1:21

Mike555
tells us in this post, that the reference to Eph 1:21 “is part of the quotation from” a commentary. One cannot tell if Mike555 is trying to imply that the author of the commentary is to blame for this error. In any case, it wastes more time since Mike555s still avoids any explanation of his strange exegesis of Eph 1:21 where he says it means “God has arranged the angelic realm in differing ranks”.

Mike555
also shows us that other verses are available to support the doctrine. This is yet more wasted time since he and I have both already shown other texts displaying the doctrine. Still, Mike555 doesn’t explain his strange exegesis of Eph 1:21 when he says it means “God has arranged the angelic realm in differing ranks” .

In a charitable assumption, perhaps Mike555 assumed other verses would help his situation. He simply doesn’t tell us why he offered irrelevant data to us. However, such data do not explain his strange and specific exegesis of Eph 1:21 “God has arranged the angelic realm in differing ranks”. Instead we’ve spent multiple posts avoiding any explanation as to why he feels Eph 1:21 meant that “God has arranged the angelic realm in differing ranks” .

By this point, readers are certainly able to come to their own conclusions as to why we cannot get a direct and detailed answer to this question from Mike555. I don't think further requests for information will be any more fruitful, therefore I think it is simply time to move on.



Clear
φιφυσεω
Why do you resort to making false allegations about those with whom you disagree? Post #39 answered your question clearly. And as to why I used the quote from the Bible Knowledge Commentary, as I stated in post #39, it refers to the prince of Persia which follows my comments on the prince of Persia. The prince of Persia is the common factor between my comment and the quote from the Bible Knowledge Commentary. Not irrelevant at all.

Furthermore, the author of the quote did not make a mistake. The author is Dr. Harold W. Hoehner
Distinguished Professor of New Testament Studies at Dallas Theological Seminary.
B.A., Barrington College, 1958; Th.M., Dallas Theological Seminary, 1962; Th.D., 1965; Ph.D., Cambridge University, 1968; postdoctoral study, Tübingen University and Cambridge University.


As I plainly stated, Dr. Hoehner could have used one of the other verses mentioned but chose to use Ephesians 1:21. That was not a mistake on his part. He was not attempting to prove that angels have ranks, he simply referred to a verse which shows differences of ranks. Ephesians 3:10 and 6:12 as I showed clarify that the rule, authority, power, and dominion mentioned in Ephesians 1:21 has reference to differences of rank in the heavenly places.

Regarding Ephesians 6:12, Dr. Hoehner writes;
The struggle is not physical (against flesh and blood); it is a spiritual conflict against the spiritual 'Mafia.'' Though the ranks of satanic forces cannot be fully categorized, the first two (rulers and authorities) have already been mentioned in 1:21 and 3:10. Paul added the powers of this dark world (cf. 2:2; 4:18; 5:8) and the spiritual forces of evil. Their sphere of activity is in the heavenly realms, the fifth occurrence of this phrase, which is mentioned in the New Testament only in 1:3, 20; 2:6; 3:10; 6:12. Satan, who is in the heavens (2:2) until he will be cast out in the middle of the Tribulation (Rev. 12:9-10), is trying to rob believers of the spiritual blessings God has given them (Eph. 1:3). [The Bible Knowledge Commentary, New Testament, An Exposition of the Scriptures by Dallas Seminary Faculty, p. 643]
Now, among the fallen angels Satan has the highest rank. Below him are fallen angels of varying ranks. The elect angels also have varying ranks. As Dr. Hoehner pointed out, the ranks cannot be fully categorized.

Ephesians 1:21 does indeed refer to different ranks, as Ephesians 3:10 and 6:12 go on to clarify.

Far from avoiding answering your question, I answered it clearly. And of the two of us, it is not I who am wasting peoples time, it is you with your childish rants and false allegations.

Last edited by Mike555; 10-16-2013 at 04:00 PM..
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Old 10-16-2013, 03:47 PM
 
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This is as good a place as any to begin my own preaching of my own "religion", if you will.

1) God talks to each of us ALL the time. Do we listen?

1a) Sometimes what God tells us is contrary to what is said in the Bible. Or rather, what we THINK is said in the Bible. God's intent is to educate us, as in lead us into understanding.

2) God sent Jesus to lead us into a new age. Jesus was crucified to liberate us from the bondage of sin, to free us from the past. Why exactly would God then cede the earth to Satan, the Prince of Evil?

2a) Man is quite capable of both good and evil, all by ourselves. We dont need a supreme being of evil to help!
Chuckmann, Satan is not a supreme being. He is, as the Bible reveals, a Cherub angel who rebelled against God (Ezekiel 28:14-18).

When God created Adam He gave dominion to man over the earth (Genesis 1:26). But at the fall Satan became the ruler of the world. As the ruler of the rule he made a legitimate offer to Jesus to give the kingdoms of the world to Jesus if Jesus would bow down and worship him (Matthew 4:8-9). Jesus stated that Satan is the ruler of the world (John 12:31, 14:30, and 16:11). Jesus will take the rulership of the world from Satan when He returns, and indeed begins to during the Tribulation.

Quote:
So all that we have, all that we are, is the result of Satan's Plan? Give me a break! If you truly believed that, you would be living on a mountaintop, armed to the teeth, denying the value of science, of modern medicine, and yes, the internet!
No. But Satan does make use of the things mentioned to promote his plan and work his deception.
The world is under the deception of Satan who deceives the nations (Revelation 20:3,8). Do you believe the Bible or not?



Quote:
I thought God banished Satan to hell forever and ever after that great battle that occurs only in Enoch, a non-canonical book. Sounds to me like you believe that Satan is the whole purpose of our existence, not mankind.
The angelic rebellion against God of which Satan was the leader is very much a part of the reason why God created man. But not the only reason.

Satan will not be confined to the lake of fire until after the end of the Millennium. At present he is operational on the earth and in fact still has access to heaven where he accuses believers (Revelation 12:10). Satan will not be permanently banned from heaven until the middle of the Tribulation (Revelation 12:7-9).

Quote:
Once again, our existence is ALL about Satan, isnt it... Never mind that modern Christian doctrine regarding Satan is in direct contradiction to the Jewish doctrine, which is that Satan, the Adversary, is an aspect of El. He is Adversary to the purpose of God, Adversary to the purpose of Messiah. Satan is NOT Adversary to the purpose of man.
Ephesians 6:11-16 shows that Satan is very much the enemy of mankind.

As does 1 Peter 5:8.
Be of sober spirit, be on the alert. Your adversary, the devil, prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour.


Quote:
Amazing! Jesus gave us the right message. Be right with God. Be right with your fellow man. Do good works. Eternal life is yours. No Satan. None of this delusional stuff about Satan as the Authority of this domain in which we live.

God talks to all of us ALL the time. The only question is: do we listen. God has been inspiring us to abandon our human induced delusions about the nature of the universe, and is leading us to greater understanding of the universe which He created. God is eternal - no beginning, no end. He is not limited by our puny human suppositions. It does not matter if the earth is 6,000 years old, 10,000 years old, or 4.5 billion years old. But given that God IS eternal, why do humans attempt to limit the nature of His creation?

Sorry, but I do not buy all these pretzeled chains of logic, with a verse here and a phrase there, when God works tirelessly to guide us beyond the worship of a single holy book, and into a greater understand of Him and His plan for us.
The question you must ask yourself is whether you believe the statements in the New Testament concerning what Jesus said about Satan's rulership over this world. Even though Satan was strategically defeated at the Cross, he is still operational on the earth and is still the ruler of this world.

Satan is called the god of this age in 2 Corinthians 4:4 who blinds the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ.
in whose case the god of this age has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.
Satan is very much the enemy of mankind.

Again, the question you must ask yourself is whether you believe what the New Testament says about Satan.
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