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Old 08-21-2016, 09:19 AM
 
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Jesus himself said the vast majority of humanity will go to hell to burn for eternity:

Quote:
Jesus said, "Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it."
This verse above any other is the one that should cause any clear-thinking person to at least question whether Jesus either existed or had words put into his mouth. Imagine the gaping contradiction:

Jesus came into the world to save humanity from hell, but despite his best efforts he will fail to save the vast majority of humanity, so they will be condemned to hell for eternity because they followed the sin nature God instilled in them. If that is not THE recipe for a clusterfack---designed by the God of the universe no less, then I don't know what the definition of failure is.
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Old 08-21-2016, 09:24 AM
 
Location: Booth Texas
14,765 posts, read 4,958,159 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
Jesus himself said the vast majority of humanity will go to hell to burn for eternity:



This verse above any other is the one that should cause any clear-thinking person to at least question whether Jesus either existed or had words put into his mouth. Imagine the gaping contradiction:

Jesus came into the world to save souls, but despite his best efforts he will fail to save the vast majority of humanity, so they will be condemned to hell for eternity because they followed the sin nature God instilled in them. If that is not THE recipe for a clusterfack---designed by the God of the universe no less, then I don't know what the definition of failure is.

The broad way is the court, and the narrow way is the entrance into the Holy of Holies.


What I see is that these people don't obtain the first resurrection and this is destruction but it doesn't mean you go to hell and burn, not in my opinion but I suppose many Christians may think as you.


I just have a different opinion of the broad way in the court. They are sent to the court where they weep and gnash their teeth but not because they are in hell burning, but because they did not obtain the first resurrection, they mourn at what could have been, I believe they are still saved.
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Old 08-21-2016, 09:28 AM
 
21,804 posts, read 16,670,340 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
I know this may be difficult for you to understand, Mystic, but as "primitive" as the notion may be, Jesus Christ did speak of rewarding the obedient. Now, this doesn't necessarily imply that those who choose to focus on emulating Jesus are doing so with all that much thought as to the consequences of their actions. I know that my own focus on "what reward will this choice or behavior bring me?" is virtually nil. I choose to try to live in such a way that my Father in Heaven and His Son, Jesus Christ, will recognize my deep and sincere love for them. Because of what I believe about Jesus Christ, I am drawn to try to emulate Him in all I say and do. Much of the time, I fall miserably short, but when I do, I absolutely do not find myself thinking, "Oh, crap. That reward I was striving for just slipped out of my fingers." The fact that I am striving to be my personal best does not mean that it is the thought of a reward that motivates me. Still, the fact remains that Jesus did speak of rewards being given to each person "according to their works." And nothing you or anybody else can say will change that.
Hi Katzpur. Yes, not only did Jesus speak of rewards, but so did the apostles. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise. John urges his readers to be careful so that they may receive a full reward (2 John 1:8.)

Jesus of course in His parable of the minas said that some would have authority over ten cities, and some over five cities, and some would lose out on their rewards (Luke 19:17-26). He spoke of storing up treasure for yourself in heaven (Matt. 6:20-21).

While eternal life is a free gift, rewards are earned through faithfulness to the Lord. The believer's works that are acceptable to God will be rewarded at the judgment seat of Christ (1 Cor. 3:12-15).

Paul wrote about running the race in such a way to win the prize and not be disqualified. He wasn't referring to eternal life which he said is by grace though faith, and not by works (Eph. 2:8-9), but about being qualified to receive rewards (1 Cor.9:24-27).

So there is a legitimate motivation in being faithful in order to be rewarded, not only because those rewards glorify God, but because if rewards weren't a legitimate cause for motivation they would not have been mentioned as much as they are. But the believer should do whatever he does for the glory of God rather than out of selfish motives.
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Old 08-21-2016, 10:13 AM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
21,954 posts, read 22,094,309 times
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Originally Posted by maat55 View Post
A red flag that the bible is fiction would be that it is difficult to understand its meaning.
I don't have any trouble whatsoever understanding it. It actually seems very straightforward to me. As to why you find it difficult, I can't say.
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Old 08-21-2016, 11:04 AM
 
11,227 posts, read 11,251,267 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
I don't have any trouble whatsoever understanding it. It actually seems very straightforward to me. As to why you find it difficult, I can't say.
So Katzpur please explain this to me because I've never been able to figure out why Jesus practices "exclusivity"

Quote:
He told them, "The secret of the kingdom of God has been given to you. But to those on the outside everything is said in parables so that, they may be ever seeing but never perceiving, and ever hearing but never understanding; otherwise they might turn and be forgiven!
Note the last part: [otherwise it is possible they might turn from their sins and then I would be forced to forgive them]

Let me get this straight: Jesus came to teach them how to be forgiven but now he's saying he doesn't want them to be forgiven and if they ever turned from their sin (NOTE: this implies a unilateral act on their part without the help of the Holy Spirit, yet Jesus said in John that NO ONE could come to him unless the Spirit draws them--another glaring contradiction ) he would be forced to forgive them.

Do you think you comprehend this passage, Katzpur?
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Old 08-21-2016, 02:21 PM
 
40,037 posts, read 26,715,004 times
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Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
Reward, schmeward! The reward/punishment meme is the most primitive one in existence. Most of us grow out of it early on and begin to use emulation of a role model and remain there for most of our adult lives. We just change role models as we mature. A fortunate few who achieve full maturity incorporate their values and principles into their inner core, like Jesus, and follow them in life no matter what consequences they evoke. This focus on reward (or punishment) should long ago have been bred out of our species.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
I know this may be difficult for you to understand, Mystic, but as "primitive" as the notion may be, Jesus Christ did speak of rewarding the obedient. Now, this doesn't necessarily imply that those who choose to focus on emulating Jesus are doing so with all that much thought as to the consequences of their actions. I know that my own focus on "what reward will this choice or behavior bring me?" is virtually nil. I choose to try to live in such a way that my Father in Heaven and His Son, Jesus Christ, will recognize my deep and sincere love for them. Because of what I believe about Jesus Christ, I am drawn to try to emulate Him in all I say and do. Much of the time, I fall miserably short, but when I do, I absolutely do not find myself thinking, "Oh, crap. That reward I was striving for just slipped out of my fingers." The fact that I am striving to be my personal best does not mean that it is the thought of a reward that motivates me. Still, the fact remains that Jesus did speak of rewards being given to each person "according to their works." And nothing you or anybody else can say will change that.
Not difficult for me at all, Katz. You have essentially confirmed my post about the emulation in adulthood. The lack of focus on reward or consequences is a start toward the ultimate goal of adoption in our inner core irrespective of consequences, as with Jesus who endured horrendous consequences. The reward motive is there for those who need it in their walk. Unfortunately, the punishment motive is also there for some (too many, IMO).
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Old 08-21-2016, 04:32 PM
 
Location: Australia
481 posts, read 183,039 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
Jesus himself said the vast majority of humanity will go to hell to burn for eternity:

This verse above any other is the one that should cause any clear-thinking person to at least question whether Jesus either existed or had words put into his mouth. Imagine the gaping contradiction:

Jesus came into the world to save humanity from hell, but despite his best efforts he will fail to save the vast majority of humanity, so they will be condemned to hell for eternity because they followed the sin nature God instilled in them. If that is not THE recipe for a clusterfack---designed by the God of the universe no less, then I don't know what the definition of failure is.
So, who created this Hell of fire and torment? Jesus came into the world to be a witness to his Heavenly Father, he also gave his life as a ransom sacrifice for the sin of Adam, thus opening the way for mankind to once again have the offer of everlasting life on a Paradise earth.

The only time one should fear death is when one has not followed in Jesus' footsteps. Jesus gave one 'roadmap' to salvation, not 40,000 as this is the amount of misaligned religions in the world today. Of course, Satan would have more if he had the time, as the more different beliefs he can spread around the greater the confusion as to which is the Truth.

Jehovah has not made any errors,or had failures, it is just the way we interpret his Word.
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Old 08-21-2016, 04:43 PM
 
11,227 posts, read 11,251,267 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marakorpa View Post
So, who created this Hell of fire and torment? Jesus came into the world to be a witness to his Heavenly Father, he also gave his life as a ransom sacrifice for the sin of Adam, thus opening the way for mankind to once again have the offer of everlasting life on a Paradise earth.

The only time one should fear death is when one has not followed in Jesus' footsteps. Jesus gave one 'roadmap' to salvation, not 40,000 as this is the amount of misaligned religions in the world today. Of course, Satan would have more if he had the time, as the more different beliefs he can spread around the greater the confusion as to which is the Truth.

Jehovah has not made any errors,or had failures, it is just the way we interpret his Word.
So you attribute 40,000 different religions to the work of satan trying to lead us away from the one true religion....as opposed to it being a big wide world out there with billions of people living in different pockets of it who evolved religious beliefs on their own????????

Riiiiiight....
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Old 08-21-2016, 05:57 PM
 
17,521 posts, read 10,600,115 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marakorpa View Post
So, who created this Hell of fire and torment? Jesus came into the world to be a witness to his Heavenly Father, he also gave his life as a ransom sacrifice for the sin of Adam, thus opening the way for mankind to once again have the offer of everlasting life on a Paradise earth.

The only time one should fear death is when one has not followed in Jesus' footsteps. Jesus gave one 'roadmap' to salvation, not 40,000 as this is the amount of misaligned religions in the world today. Of course, Satan would have more if he had the time, as the more different beliefs he can spread around the greater the confusion as to which is the Truth.

Jehovah has not made any errors,or had failures, it is just the way we interpret his Word.
Yep and it started at Babel when man scattered in language groups. Satan is still busy ay bcausing divise groups to start and claim some people.

KJV 2 Corinthians 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. 15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

I see you are in Australia. Mt wife and I have been there twice. The last time was Melbourne in Nov 2014. Etihad.
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Old 08-21-2016, 06:26 PM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
21,954 posts, read 22,094,309 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
So Katzpur please explain this to me because I've never been able to figure out why Jesus practices "exclusivity"



Note the last part: [otherwise it is possible they might turn from their sins and then I would be forced to forgive them]

Let me get this straight: Jesus came to teach them how to be forgiven but now he's saying he doesn't want them to be forgiven and if they ever turned from their sin (NOTE: this implies a unilateral act on their part without the help of the Holy Spirit, yet Jesus said in John that NO ONE could come to him unless the Spirit draws them--another glaring contradiction ) he would be forced to forgive them.

Do you think you comprehend this passage, Katzpur?
I'm a little bit confused, thrillobyte. Could you tell me where the passage you quoted comes from (chapter and verse)? I'd be happy to throw in my two cents worth, but I would need to read it in context. IMO, Jesus really didn't practice "exclusivity," although I can see why certain passages would lead someone to believe He did. That's probably why we are still caught up in this big ET/UR debate after all this time.
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