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Old 10-25-2013, 10:51 PM
 
Location: Nanaimo, Canada
1,808 posts, read 1,588,798 times
Reputation: 967

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Quote:
Originally Posted by FundamentalBibleBeliever View Post
Comparatively speaking Christians do not have a bad thing in America. But when compared with the America of the past, things have really turned against Christians in many ways. I suppose because the Christians in America are not being tortured, killed, raped and forced into slavery like they are in most of the "peace loving islamic countries" is way some say there is not threat against us in America.

Once in America a Christian had the freedom to pray publicly at a football game and those who choose not to were allowed the same freedom. Today the Christian has lost his right while the non-Christian has the same rights they all once had.

Once in America you could call sin a sin. Today your called a bigot or raciest or some "phobe" for accepting what God has said. Those who attack Christians are free to do so.

Christians are denied the same rights as others every day in our society. I am told that I may not have a bible in my workspace. I choose to read it during my breaks and at lunch and I still have it. One day I may loose my job over it. They allow wicca material and islamic material but only Christians are singled out.

Today Christians are being forced to offer medical coverage for things they believe are a sin and violate their religion. But they are denied their right to religious freedom and forced to do so if they want to run a business in America. This is the beginning steps to not allowing Christians to work. Watch and see.

We're all martyrs in our own minds.

Praying -- privately -- in a public place is still your right. The government has just declared that it's not going to force people to pray to any single deity. if you want to say the Lord's Prayer when a touchdown is imminent, go right ahead. Don't expect the government to bow down and make everyone else do it.

You are also welcome to your opinion (for the record, the Supreme Court has declared that someone's personal opinion is not legally actionable). You are not welcome to harass another and hide behind religion as a justification.

As for your last point:

My father once said, 'You live under my roof, you obey my rules'. Consider the government a 'parent'; if you want to live here, you're expected to follow all the rules.

And finally:

Wicca and Islam are religions, just like yours, and we're entitled to the same protections that you Christians get.

Get used to it.
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Old 10-26-2013, 03:07 AM
 
Location: Denver, CO
9,278 posts, read 5,489,845 times
Reputation: 4046
Default Excellent post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
People keep telling me that my religious freedoms are under attack, but I am not seeing it. There are troubling trends in the society accepting gay marriage, drugs, abortion etc more than before, but how should that take away from my religious rights? It doesn't, because my faith is between me and my God. There are countries like Iran where it is dangerous to be Christian, but the Christians there are happy with their personal relationship with God. There is something about people and their desire to feel that they are under attack. I am not under attack, no matter how much others try to convinvce me that I am. I can't think of anything related to my faith that I want to do, but I am not allowed to do.
Finn, I don't think I've ever seen eye to eye with you on anything before, but not only do I agree, I compliment you on how succinctly and effectively you stated the point.

Crazy, liberal believer that I am.
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Old 10-26-2013, 03:27 AM
 
Location: Denver, CO
9,278 posts, read 5,489,845 times
Reputation: 4046
Default Non- Christians forced to support Christian enterprise

Quote:
Originally Posted by FundamentalBibleBeliever View Post
Comparatively speaking Christians do not have a bad thing in America. But when compared with the America of the past, things have really turned against Christians in many ways. I suppose because the Christians in America are not being tortured, killed, raped and forced into slavery like they are in most of the "peace loving islamic countries" is way some say there is not threat against us in America.

Once in America a Christian had the freedom to pray publicly at a football game and those who choose not to were allowed the same freedom. Today the Christian has lost his right while the non-Christian has the same rights they all once had.

Once in America you could call sin a sin. Today your called a bigot or raciest or some "phobe" for accepting what God has said. Those who attack Christians are free to do so.

Christians are denied the same rights as others every day in our society. I am told that I may not have a bible in my workspace. I choose to read it during my breaks and at lunch and I still have it. One day I may loose my job over it. They allow wicca material and islamic material but only Christians are singled out.

Today Christians are being forced to offer medical coverage for things they believe are a sin and violate their religion. But they are denied their right to religious freedom and forced to do so if they want to run a business in America. This is the beginning steps to not allowing Christians to work. Watch and see.
To the extent that Christians receive tax breaks for donations, non Christians are supporting that faith because someway the money "saved" for Christian pockets in practicing their faith is paid for by other Americans even if it is in the form of additional national debt.

An excellent way to see just how strong our faith is would be to eliminate income tax deductions for donations to any and all religious institutions.

Throughout the history of the world the strongest faith has always been in the midst of persecution and difficulties. If you want to discover who is REALLY a Christian, then let the floodgates of persecution open wide. It's sure a good way to separate the wheat from the chaff.

If there is no difficulty in walking in one's faith, we can never know how strong our faith really is. As Finn mentioned in his post about Iranian Christians facing more difficulties, you can be sure not a single one of them takes their faith lightly.
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Old 10-26-2013, 06:11 AM
 
Location: Clanton, AL
668 posts, read 570,628 times
Reputation: 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wardendresden View Post
To the extent that Christians receive tax breaks for donations, non Christians are supporting that faith because someway the money "saved" for Christian pockets in practicing their faith is paid for by other Americans even if it is in the form of additional national debt.

An excellent way to see just how strong our faith is would be to eliminate income tax deductions for donations to any and all religious institutions.

Throughout the history of the world the strongest faith has always been in the midst of persecution and difficulties. If you want to discover who is REALLY a Christian, then let the floodgates of persecution open wide. It's sure a good way to separate the wheat from the chaff.

If there is no difficulty in walking in one's faith, we can never know how strong our faith really is. As Finn mentioned in his post about Iranian Christians facing more difficulties, you can be sure not a single one of them takes their faith lightly.
I have never claimed any deduction for my contributions to my church or any religious organizations. I don't keep up with it and I don't make it possible for others to keep up with it. It is between me and God. That's just a personal thing with me.
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Old 10-26-2013, 09:42 AM
 
Location: Denver, CO
9,278 posts, read 5,489,845 times
Reputation: 4046
Quote:
Originally Posted by FundamentalBibleBeliever View Post
I have never claimed any deduction for my contributions to my church or any religious organizations. I don't keep up with it and I don't make it possible for others to keep up with it. It is between me and God. That's just a personal thing with me.
I would not do so either, but only because my deductions no longer qualify me to itemize. Tell fellow church members that you believe that donations to religious institutions should not be itemized and get back to us on the response.

For all the opposition by many Christians to the government, and for all of modern Christianity's support of Paul, they sure do not embrace his theme of "submit" to authorities. Instead they choose in THAT instance, to be more like the zealot, Jesus, whose preaching of the coming of the Kingdom of God and His kingship of it was absolutely seen as a threat by Roman authorities.

After all, they reserved death by crucifixion in Palestine to "bandits," an early pejorative for anyone who stood against the authorities, or for slaves. "King of the Jews" written above Jesus' head on the cross, was not in mocking Him. It was by way of explanation to all who viewed Him hanging there so they would know what His crime against Rome was. It was a common practice at crucifixions.

The real work of Christians, IMO, is what they do for others where no one else has any idea that they are doing it.

P.S. Read about the early Christians in Japan. Catholic missionaries established the church there, but after an uprising by warlords who won and supplanted the government, they went through every known Christian community asking each person, even children, if they were Christians. Affirmation resulted in immediate execution. Still, 200 years later, when the doors to Japan were opened again, missionaries discovered small pockets of Christians who had descended from the few that had either escaped detection, or had told the warlords they were not Christian. The faith had survived, with some changes in doctrinal views.

THAT is lack of religious liberty!!

Quote:
Tokugawa Ieyasu assumed control over Japan in 1600. Like Toyotomi Hideyoshi, he disliked Christian activities in Japan. The Tokugawa shogunate finally decided to ban Catholicism, in 1614 and in the mid-17th century it demanded the expulsion of all European missionaries and the execution of all converts. This marked the end of open Christianity in Japan.The Shimabara Rebellion, led by a young Japanese Christian boy named Amakusa Shiro Tokisada, took place in 1637. After the Hara Castle fell, the shogunate's forces beheaded an estimated 37,000 rebels and sympathizers. Amakusa Shirō's severed head was taken to Nagasaki for public display, and the entire complex at Hara Castle was burned to the ground and buried together with the bodies of all the dead.


Many of the Christians in Japan continued for two centuries to maintain their religion as Kakure Kirish*tan, or hidden Christians, without any priests or pastors.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Christians

Last edited by Wardendresden; 10-26-2013 at 09:55 AM..
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Old 10-26-2013, 11:52 AM
 
Location: Denver
3,192 posts, read 2,641,712 times
Reputation: 2226
Last I checked, pro choice anything, drugs, gay marriage, abortion, euthanasia... means exactly what is says. You make the decision, not the government. It's freedom from persecution in my book.
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Old 10-26-2013, 11:55 AM
 
Location: Clanton, AL
668 posts, read 570,628 times
Reputation: 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wardendresden View Post
I would not do so either, but only because my deductions no longer qualify me to itemize. Tell fellow church members that you believe that donations to religious institutions should not be itemized and get back to us on the response.
Why would I tell them a lie. I personally have never claimed my contributions to any religious organization. I have no problem with those who do (after all it is what the law allows).

Quote:
For all the opposition by many Christians to the government, and for all of modern Christianity's support of Paul, they sure do not embrace his theme of "submit" to authorities. Instead they choose in THAT instance, to be more like the zealot, Jesus, whose preaching of the coming of the Kingdom of God and His kingship of it was absolutely seen as a threat by Roman authorities.

After all, they reserved death by crucifixion in Palestine to "bandits," an early pejorative for anyone who stood against the authorities, or for slaves. "King of the Jews" written above Jesus' head on the cross, was not in mocking Him. It was by way of explanation to all who viewed Him hanging there so they would know what His crime against Rome was. It was a common practice at crucifixions.
Not sure what you point is here. So, Whatever!

Quote:
The real work of Christians, IMO, is what they do for others where no one else has any idea that they are doing it.
That's kind of what I personally try do with my gifts. It's hard to hide who you are when you physically help others.

Quote:
P.S. Read about the early Christians in Japan. Catholic missionaries established the church there, but after an uprising by warlords who won and supplanted the government, they went through every known Christian community asking each person, even children, if they were Christians. Affirmation resulted in immediate execution. Still, 200 years later, when the doors to Japan were opened again, missionaries discovered small pockets of Christians who had descended from the few that had either escaped detection, or had told the warlords they were not Christian. The faith had survived, with some changes in doctrinal views.

THAT is lack of religious liberty!!
Yes that is one of the more extreme examples of Christian persecution or "lack of religious liberty" as you call it. But just because people are not shooting us in the head is no reason to think our religious liberty has been and will continue to be under attack in this country.
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Old 10-26-2013, 11:56 AM
 
Location: Clanton, AL
668 posts, read 570,628 times
Reputation: 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil P View Post
Last I checked, pro choice anything, drugs, gay marriage, abortion, euthanasia... means exactly what is says. You make the decision, not the government. It's freedom from persecution in my book.
You would think that it meant that but in almost every case in the USA it means something different. It means they can attack others but no one can speak against them. It's actually freedom to persecute they have and seek.
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Old 10-26-2013, 12:58 PM
 
Location: Raleigh
1,206 posts, read 1,197,649 times
Reputation: 1377
Quote:
Originally Posted by FredNotBob View Post
We're all martyrs in our own minds.

Praying -- privately -- in a public place is still your right. The government has just declared that it's not going to force people to pray to any single deity. if you want to say the Lord's Prayer when a touchdown is imminent, go right ahead. Don't expect the government to bow down and make everyone else do it.

You are also welcome to your opinion (for the record, the Supreme Court has declared that someone's personal opinion is not legally actionable). You are not welcome to harass another and hide behind religion as a justification.

As for your last point:

My father once said, 'You live under my roof, you obey my rules'. Consider the government a 'parent'; if you want to live here, you're expected to follow all the rules.

And finally:

Wicca and Islam are religions, just like yours, and we're entitled to the same protections that you Christians get.


Get used to it.


Government is my parent? What a jolting statement! Maybe in Canada, not in the US. At least not yet. Those in government are my employees. They work for me.
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Old 10-26-2013, 05:39 PM
 
Location: Denver, CO
9,278 posts, read 5,489,845 times
Reputation: 4046
Default Real political persecution of Christians

Quote:
Originally Posted by FundamentalBibleBeliever View Post
<snip>

Yes that is one of the more extreme examples of Christian persecution or "lack of religious liberty" as you call it. But just because people are not shooting us in the head is no reason to think our religious liberty has been and will continue to be under attack in this country.
  • More Christians were martyred in the 20th century than in all previous centuries combined
  • About 165,000 Christians are martyred for their faith each year (Christianity Facts)
  • Currently over 200 million Christians are being persecuted worldwide
  • Christians are persecuted in 131 of the world's 193 countries [Pew Forum study]
  • Nigeria: In 2010 Christians suffered terror from Muslim extremists. Whole village massacred
  • Iran: Its parliament believes Muslims who change their faith should be put to death
  • India: up to 70,000 in Orissa have been forced to flee their homes in riots against Christians
  • Indonesia: Between 2000-2002 Muslims slaughtered 10,000 Christians
  • Iraq: half of Iraq's Christians have fled the country since the fall of Saddam Hussein
Facts about Persecuted Christians and Persecuted Churches

I'm not saying it can't happen in the U.S., only that it is not at present.
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