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Old 10-16-2013, 07:49 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joint heir with jesus View Post
Much of the "bashing" lately seems to have a tone of anger or resentment to it.

In the past , when I've discussed the RCC it's been to try to point out what has been mentioned several times in this thread already: some of the docrtrines taught directly conflict with Holy scripture. Since the people implicitly trust their leaders to teach them truthfully, many may not know they are being mislead.
I always tried to approach this topic from a heart of love. I hope others do too. The real problem seems to be that being taught and then believing in false doctrine pushes God into a corner. Practicing false doctrine presumes upon the grace and mercy of God to cover the actions of Catholics who should know God's will and how He expects us to worship Him. Example: with Jesus' sacrifice on the cross we can now go directly to the throne of God and ask for forgiveness. In fact we are told to. There is no need to ask a priest to forgive your sins and indeed I don't believe this is Biblical. If the priest does not have the power to forgive sins ("Who can forgive sins but God only?"- Mk. 2:7) then are the sins of the people actually forgiven?? Many are quite disturbed at this teaching which may or may not deny heaven to it's own members. Many believe that the RCC is leading it's own straight to hell and feel the need to intercede on their behalf to save them from their own church.
OK, lets take the opportunity to do some teaching:

Catholics are allowed to ask God for forgiveness. However, confession is encouraged for very serious offenses. No different than a Protestant going to his minister to discuss a serious issue.

The sins are forgiven by God, not the priest.

Lastly, this is religion and all religions are different from each other. There is no such thing as "my religion is better than yours".

Hope that helps.

 
Old 10-16-2013, 07:51 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Meyerland View Post
It's not that the church preaches pedophilia or child abuse. It is such a small portion of the priest population. The problem I have is with the politics of the church that hid the abuse and did nothing to solve the problem. The church is supposed to guide and care for their parishioners and some were let down. I think the catholic church needs reform, and maybe it has already happened. If it has, this argument is now moot.
It is not the Church. The Church was founded by Jesus and is therefore perfect and infallible. The problem is with the men that run the Church.
 
Old 10-16-2013, 07:59 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bartstarr1960 View Post


Proselytize 1. To induce someone to convert to one's own religious faith. A call to salvation is not a call to join a specific church or a specific religion, but instead a call to become a member of Christ's body. I don't know any church that would accept church membership immediately upon accepting Christ as saviour.
You are technically correct, but the intention is to gain a convert.

Quote:
I only quoted the sources. I don't write the rules for Breakaway Catholics, Traditionalist Catholics, and Eastern Catholics that are in communion with the Bishop of Rome.
Some are not in communion with the Holy See. That is a fact!

Quote:

Julian I'll leave you with this BREAKING NEWS. Anglicans could receive Roman Catholic communion, Archbishop suggests - Telegraph
Remember earlier, maybe in another thread, I said changes were underfoot? An era of reconcilliation and reunification is being ushered in by Pope Francis and is today's message. It's time to move out of the past, embrace the future, or risk being a relic, a dinosaur in the tar pit. God Bless.
All Christians are considered Catholics.
 
Old 10-16-2013, 10:56 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian658 View Post
The Church is universal and the Church was founded by Jesus, so any Christian belongs to the Church. That is correct. But, there is more; the Church grants salvation to Jews, Muslims, and those that did not know Jesus through no fault of their own. This is the logical and rational way to approach true Christianity. It is all there in the Catechism. I am saddened by the propagation of errors made by people that are not well informed.
So am I. The RCC does not offer salvation to Jews, Muslims and those that did not know Jesus through no fault of their own.

839 The relationship of the Church with the Jewish People. When she delves into her own mystery, the Church, the People of God in the New Covenant, discovers her link with the Jewish People, "the first to hear the Word of God." The Jewish faith, unlike other non-Christian religions, is already a response to God's revelation in the Old Covenant. To the Jews "belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ", "for the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable."
Meaning From Pope Benedict:......Church’s Magisterium. It also is not what Pope Benedict is advocating here. He is not saying that Jews don’t need Jesus or that they don’t need to become Christians. He is saying that they corporately convert to Christ, but not until the end of time. Prior to that point, individual Jews may become Christians—as with the apostles and the very first Christians and with other converts from Judaism down through history http://www.ncregister.com/blog/jimmy...ze-jews-really

841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day.Meaning From Catholic Answers: The plan of salvation includes Muslims. This is common sense. God desires all men (including Muslims) to be saved.

Meaning From Catholic Answers: This does not mean that all Muslims are saved by virtue of their being Muslims. This passage should be read in context of the entire Catechism which teaches that salvation is received through Christ alone through the means of grace provided through the Church of Jesus Christ. One cannot wrench this paragraph from the catechism and let it stand alone.

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church
Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.

848 Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."

From CatholiCity: Refusing to Enter (847) Someone who knows the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God and refuses to enter or remain in it, cannot be saved.
























 
Old 10-17-2013, 12:04 AM
 
870 posts, read 666,271 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Meyerland View Post
I became disillusioned with the Catholic church when they knowingly had pedophiles in charge of churches. If they assaulted kids, they would be moved to another parish to do it again. It may have been a small number, but even one was too many.

I don't believe that confessing one's sins will wash them away, some are just too awful.

If they had to keep the priests, then send them to some isolated monastery where they could be supervised away from children.
There is no sin greater than God's mercy.
 
Old 10-17-2013, 04:27 AM
Zur
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian658 View Post
I am sure you are a very intelligent person, but I advice you check the Catechism of the RCC before repeating the words that your preacher tells the congregation. Here is the Catechism with regards to other Christians. The Catholic Church considers these Christians saved (See 838 below in bold). You are citing ideas from the dark ages. IN fact, the CC also allows salvation for Jews.



I hope that helps your growth as a Christian. You are simply propagating misinformation Please become better informed before posting.
Thank you for your flowers. Your Catechism is speaking of believers, Christians in general, not about churches. It still recognizes only one church, they claim I belong to and they decide who is saved or cursed. Praise God they have no authority, only God saves, not the RCC. The Catholic Church (CC) is spiritual and universal and build of all true believers in Christ, and has nothing to do with any church including the Roman Catholic Church (RCC). Mormons or JW make the same claim that they are the only true church, but as we know, they err, so does the RCC. That according to the RCC I am saved is not true. Their decrees say that I am anathema. Therefore I am a Protestant, rejecting not only the Pope, the worldly power of the Vatican, but also the RCC and their claim, that I belong to their church.
I am not misinformed. The statement #46 mentions that Vatican II concurs with and reaffirms again the "decrees" of Trent (1545-1563). There are 100 anathemas written against Christians of other faith, for instance
a) rejecting bowing down before images
b) rejecting the Eucharist, the wafer to be adored as worship of latria
The bible says that we have to worship God only (Rev 19:10+22:8). I never saw the wafer transformed into Jesus Christ bodily, therefore their is no reason to worship a peace of bread, that has a spiritual meaning, but to make it an object of worship makes no sense. To fulfill scripture the RCC would do better to give bread and wine.
I reject further that the Roman Church is the mistress of all churches and has the true doctrine concerning the sacrament of baptism. Constantine demanded baptism without faith in Christ, the same happened during the reign of "Fürsten" in Germany during the religious wars. When the "Fürst" became Catholic every one became Catholic, the same happened when he became Protestant. An infant has no faith at all, it is not saved, just because it becomes a member of a church, than this church saves. This all contradicts the bible till today, Salvation is a gift, which the saved "criminal" on the cross received by grace only, not by baptism, but by faith in Jesus Christ.
Jews are saved, when they believe in Christ. The same with Muslims. Read your bible, you will find truth, not in the Talmud, Koran or Catechism, nor in the internet, including CD.

Last edited by Zur; 10-17-2013 at 04:35 AM..
 
Old 10-17-2013, 06:20 AM
 
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As long as Catholics have accepted Jesus as their Lord and Savior, their a-ok in my book.
 
Old 10-17-2013, 07:23 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zur View Post
Your Catechism is speaking of believers, Christians in general, not about churches. It still recognizes only one church, they claim I belong to and they decide who is saved or cursed. Praise God they have no authority, only God saves, not the RCC. The Catholic Church (CC) is spiritual and universal and build of all true believers in Christ, and has nothing to do with any church including the Roman Catholic Church (RCC).
Sure only God saves.

From the Catechism:

816 "The sole Church of Christ [is that] which our Savior, after his Resurrection, entrusted to Peter's pastoral care, commissioning him and the other apostles to extend and rule it. . . . This Church, constituted and organized as a society in the present world, subsists in (subsistit in) the Catholic Church, which is governed by the successor of Peter and by the bishops in communion with him."267



You are correct, Catholics believe that the CC is the Church founded by Christ.

However, further down the line it says:

838 "The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter."322 Those "who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church."323

There is no ambiguity here. Those that are Christian, but not Catholic are consider part of the Church.




Quote:
Mormons or JW make the same claim that they are the only true church, but as we know, they err, so does the RCC.
Sure, everybody says "my religion (church) is better than yours". What makes the CC different is that it was there at the onset of Christianity. But, I would never claim the concept "my religion (church) is better than yours" because religion is man made. Ultimately the church is the bride of Christ.


That according to the RCC I am saved is not true. Their decrees say that I am anathema. Therefore I am a Protestant, rejecting not only the Pope, the worldly power of the Vatican, but also the RCC and their claim, that I belong to their church.
I am not misinformed. The statement #46 mentions that Vatican II concurs with and reaffirms again the "decrees" of Trent (1545-1563).



We need stop writing about things that are ancient and not relevant to the 21st century. Sure, Catholics in the Dark Ages were looking for heresy everywhere. BUt, we are now in the 21st century.



Quote:
I reject further that the Roman Church is the mistress of all churches and has the true doctrine concerning the sacrament of baptism. Constantine demanded baptism without faith in Christ, the same happened during the reign of "Fürsten" in Germany during the religious wars. When the "Fürst" became Catholic every one became Catholic, the same happened when he became Protestant. An infant has no faith at all, it is not saved, just because it becomes a member of a church, than this church saves. This all contradicts the bible till today, Salvation is a gift, which the saved "criminal" on the cross received by grace only, not by baptism, but by faith in Jesus Christ.
Jews are saved, when they believe in Christ. The same with Muslims. Read your bible, you will find truth, not in the Talmud, Koran or Catechism, nor in the internet, including CD.

The Church saves is your straw man, I get that.

According to the RCC you are saved by Jesus because you are a Christian. This is not complicated.


We don't know what was inside the head of Constantine, he was merely a man.

You are free to disagree with infant baptism, but this is moot as Catholics are required to follow through with confirmation when they are teenagers.

And never forget that the RCC gave you and ALL Christians the NT.
 
Old 10-19-2013, 12:34 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arleigh View Post
The catholic chirch denied their people access to the scriptures for many years, maintaining a level of ignorance and control. Protestants had full access to the scriptures,giving them an edge in knowing more of the truth than the catholic shurch allowed. In spite of the ful access to scriptures available to them now they are so steeped in tradition and fear of the church ,they dare not challange what is being taught ,rather defend it. Protestants are not so fearful hence the division among churches exists.Working with a poorly engineered bible they assyembled, deeming Paul's letters as scripture, confusion and conflict are rampent. In spite of all this God is able to find those that actually love Him, and reveal Jesus.One would do well to sitck with the things Jesus taught in the gospels and revelation. and desperately seek after the tutelage of the Holy Spirit Jesus promied His believers. Neither the cathoic nor the protestant are obeying Jesus teaching, so long as they choose to listen to men in place of God.
That is interesting since there were no Protestants until 1500 and Martin Luther. Just who had the bible before that?

The bible is a Catholic book. The Catholic church compiled it. It came together in the 3rd century after the church dealt with many heresies. And no, they didn't keep it from the average person, there was no printing press to pass out bibles, all had to be hand written and cost a lot of money the normal non-rich person could afford, but bibles were in all churches to be kept there as not to lose them.
 
Old 10-19-2013, 12:50 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Warszawa View Post
We can bash an institution which stood on the sidelines watching the Holocaust happen
A book on Pope Pius is coming out soon and that lie will hopefully be put to rest. No one could go against the Nazis without being put to death, many priests and nuns were killed. The Pope did things in secret.
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