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Old 12-04-2013, 06:46 AM
 
Location: North Carolina
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As our former elder said before his death in 2004, all we need to do to inherit eternal life is to love the Lord our God with all our heart, soul, mind, and strength. But in our natural state that is an impossible task. We must have the Spirit of the Holy Ghost abiding richly in our souls until our death to be able to enter into the kingdom of heaven. Remember the words of 1 John 2:[3] And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. [4] He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. [5] But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
See also the words of Heb. 5:[9] And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
Remember our Savior's words in Luke 6:[46] And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?
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Old 12-04-2013, 10:17 AM
Status: "The nicest curve on a woman's body is her smile" (set 21 days ago)
 
Location: Florida/Tennessee
2,420 posts, read 4,317,148 times
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Robert... your a Godly man... but I sense your thinking is stuck on words like; obey and perfect. If we can achieve this on our own = obediant and perfection, well then... the "law" was enough for us, and Jesus wasn't necessary.

Am I reading you wrong? Where's your heart in this?

Believe me I'm not a new-ager but my thinking always included faith and grace when I think about our road to salvation.
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Old 12-04-2013, 06:16 PM
 
Location: North Carolina
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Dave, the standards were set by Christ Himself. He was the one who said, If ye love me keep my commandments. The mosaic law fell far short of making us righteous. Paul said in Rom 7:[6] But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter. It is by grace from our heavenly Father that we are able to receive the Holy Ghost as a free gift from God to those who OBEY Him (Acts 5:32.)
If we let that Holy Ghost lead us and direct our lives, good works will follow but we have nothing of which we can boast - the works were done in us and through us by the power of the Holy Spirit.
Jesus said in Matt. 5: [44] But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
[45] That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; [46] For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? [47] And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so? [48] Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
He also said in Luke [46] And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?
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Old 12-05-2013, 12:59 AM
Status: "The nicest curve on a woman's body is her smile" (set 21 days ago)
 
Location: Florida/Tennessee
2,420 posts, read 4,317,148 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert M Prince View Post
Dave, the standards were set by Christ Himself. He was the one who said, If ye love me keep my commandments. The mosaic law fell far short of making us righteous. Paul said in Rom 7:[6] But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter. It is by grace from our heavenly Father that we are able to receive the Holy Ghost as a free gift from God to those who OBEY Him (Acts 5:32.)
If we let that Holy Ghost lead us and direct our lives, good works will follow but we have nothing of which we can boast - the works were done in us and through us by the power of the Holy Spirit.
Jesus said in Matt. 5: [44] But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
[45] That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; [46] For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? [47] And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so? [48] Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
He also said in Luke [46] And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?
You've provided an answer but your heart remains hidden. My last post on this thread. Blessings

...just sayin'
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Old 12-05-2013, 07:35 AM
 
Location: a nation with hope
13,153 posts, read 17,427,541 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert M Prince View Post
He also said in Luke [[/color]46] And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?
Bob, they were not believers. The Lord did not ask that question because He didn't know the answer.

Those who do not obey, are not true believers. They are believers in name only and are fooling themselves. There's no lack of them in today's churches.

The Lord knew their hearts, and wanted them to know their hearts, for it was clear that they did not. The Lord was good at getting to the heart of a matter.

This is one of those endless discussions, for it appears to be going in circles. It's clear that if we are not willing to obey, we do not love the Lord and are not believers.

We do not always obey, but He knows where our hearts are and is faithful and just to forgive us for our sins of omission when we acknowledge and confess.

Failure to obey to whatever degree does not sentence us to an eternity separated from Him. Failure to be yielded and be WILLING to obey will because it shows the true state of our hearts.

Salvation is by faith and not by works, and once saved(key word), we do not hold onto Him, but He holds onto us.

Those who don't believe the "once saved, always saved" teaching are missing the blessing of assurance and peace that comes from knowing that they are eternally secure in Him. Secure in that knowledge, every believer can experience the miracle of sanctification.

It's really quite simple.

Blessings and peace...

Last edited by southward bound; 12-05-2013 at 07:50 AM..
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Old 12-06-2013, 09:54 AM
 
Location: North Carolina
1,542 posts, read 1,059,546 times
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Southward bound -
You hit the nail on the head when you said, "Failure to be yielded and be WILLING to obey will [sentence us to an eternity separated from Him] because it shows the true state of our hearts.
You are right that if we abide in Christ, we have assurance of being saved. Jesus said in John 10:[28] And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. [29] My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
But the parable abour the sower tells us in Luke 8:[13] They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away. which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.[14] And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection. [15] But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.
The stoney ground hearers and those who were choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, were not plucked out of the Father's hand by any man, but of their own will failed to abide to the end, which Jesus said in Matt. Ch 10 was necessary to salvation.
Jesus said in John 15:[4] Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
[5] I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. [6] If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
Best wishes as we seek to know and DO the will of our heavenly Father.
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Old 12-18-2013, 04:31 PM
 
Location: North Carolina
1,542 posts, read 1,059,546 times
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See Bible Talk post today for what my personal beliefs I see as fundamental to getting assurance of seeing ourselves as worthy of obtaining eternal life.
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Old 01-15-2014, 09:12 AM
 
Location: Mesa, Arizona
546 posts, read 416,962 times
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Robert, you have done a wonderful job of showing that following and obeying are truly signs that we are His. It is VERY difficult to explain these things, and there are many ideas floating around out there that point in the right direction, yet, for one reason or another, they fall a little short. Jesus went about this in a different manner. He knew what the truth is, and HE spoke with authority. By knowing this, we know that we can trust His words.

As I awoke this morning, I was meditating on these things that you have spoken of since the beginning of this thread. Jesus asked why some don't do what He said. In fact, we all have that problem from time to time. But in our lives, since coming to know Him, His ways become a part of us. I recalled a conversation with a friend of mine that is having marital problems. He wanted me to say, (if anyone asked), that I heard his wife talking intimately with another man. (Without getting into the situation...that's not my point), I told him that I couldn't do that because I never DID hear such a thing. I told him, "I can't lie, and I won't lie." There had been times in my past life that I COULD have said such a thing, and not thought much of it, but since I have come to know the Lord, His life and ways have grown within me, and I no longer do such things.

And then I meditated upon HOW these things grew within me. I know that I have no good of and within myself, and I know that there have been times that the Holy Spirit has come upon me in a way that I felt almost completely removed from my old self, and through these occurrences I learned that the Holy Spirit within me is fully able to pull me away from my old self, and lead me in newness of life. (I also know that some people never have these radical occurrences, yet the Holy Spirit does the same working in them.) As I wondered about these things, I wished that I could have the Spirit flowing continuously within me, and then being perfect would be easy, and I realized that this IS perfection...to be flowing in the Spirit. But then, I also realized that for some reason, this doesn't happen very often; so I wondered, Why?

I realized that obeying the Commandments were an outward manifestation of Godliness growing within me, but I wondered why we fail. My mind went to the words of Jesus when He was describing what we can DO if we wish to follow Him. But actually, since we can do nothing of ourselves to earn His favor, we have to approach this in the negative. It is more like, "What can we NOT DO to follow the Lord." And that is simple. We can stop following ourselves. When we stop following ourselves, we put the death throes on the old self. He is then dead, in a manner of operation. This frees us to look at the needs of others. It opens our hearts to God. It also opens our hearts to God's Holy Spirit, because one of the biggest things that hinders the operation of the Holy Spirit is self.

How did Jesus say it? He said, "If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul? For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father's, and of the holy angels." By following these words, a whole new world opens up to us, because we are not hindered by ourselves. And the world that is opened up is 'life'; the life that abides in Him, and IF we follow Him in this manner, WE will be abiding in this life, and this life is eternal life.

But one thing I would be remiss if I failed to address it: Just because we have the Holy Spirit and we are conscious of eternal life dwelling within our beings, we can't get up on a high horse and think that we are any better than anyone else...and I mean anyone. Just as in the story of Gideon, God choses who He wishes and ordains to do different things. (I hesitate to use the word 'ordain', because of it's highly religious connotations.) Let's just say that we all have a job to do. In the case of Gideon, the thousands that were not chosen for the job went home. That's it...they went home. No condemnation; no judgment. We all live differently, and we all have different circumstances in our lives; good and bad. If I know things of God that I think my neighbor knows nothing about, I shouldn't place these things out on my sleeve and think that I am better. We just don't know what God is doing or will do in another person's life. It's not for us to judge. The Apostles gave their complete lives to God, all the way even to being martyred. Few of us will even come close to the selflessness that they had, yet is a believer cast out of heaven because of that? I think not. God's Kingdom is just that: a Kingdom. It has boundaries. The King rules within the boundaries. The King may have authority outside His Kingdom, but it doesn't mean that He totally rules there. God has spent all the time that man has been on earth as owner and authority over earth, but He hasn't ruled in totality yet, and it is a while before that happens. We have to be careful and respectful to others. The guy that we look down on today, we may find closer to God than we will be, in the end.
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Old 01-15-2014, 05:29 PM
 
17,583 posts, read 10,646,199 times
Reputation: 8497
Quote:
Originally Posted by southward bound View Post
Bob, they were not believers. The Lord did not ask that question because He didn't know the answer.

Those who do not obey, are not true believers. They are believers in name only and are fooling themselves. There's no lack of them in today's churches.

The Lord knew their hearts, and wanted them to know their hearts, for it was clear that they did not. The Lord was good at getting to the heart of a matter.

This is one of those endless discussions, for it appears to be going in circles. It's clear that if we are not willing to obey, we do not love the Lord and are not believers.

We do not always obey, but He knows where our hearts are and is faithful and just to forgive us for our sins of omission when we acknowledge and confess.

Failure to obey to whatever degree does not sentence us to an eternity separated from Him. Failure to be yielded and be WILLING to obey will because it shows the true state of our hearts.

Salvation is by faith and not by works, and once saved(key word), we do not hold onto Him, but He holds onto us.

Those who don't believe the "once saved, always saved" teaching are missing the blessing of assurance and peace that comes from knowing that they are eternally secure in Him. Secure in that knowledge, every believer can experience the miracle of sanctification.

It's really quite simple.

Blessings and peace...
Nothing says they were not true believers, it says they were not obedient believers.
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Old 01-15-2014, 05:59 PM
 
Location: North Carolina
1,542 posts, read 1,059,546 times
Reputation: 176
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumpethim View Post
Robert, you have done a wonderful job of showing that following and obeying are truly signs that we are His. It is VERY difficult to explain these things, and there are many ideas floating around out there that point in the right direction, yet, for one reason or another, they fall a little short. Jesus went about this in a different manner. He knew what the truth is, and HE spoke with authority. By knowing this, we know that we can trust His words.

As I awoke this morning, I was meditating on these things that you have spoken of since the beginning of this thread. Jesus asked why some don't do what He said. In fact, we all have that problem from time to time. But in our lives, since coming to know Him, His ways become a part of us. I recalled a conversation with a friend of mine that is having marital problems. He wanted me to say, (if anyone asked), that I heard his wife talking intimately with another man. (Without getting into the situation...that's not my point), I told him that I couldn't do that because I never DID hear such a thing. I told him, "I can't lie, and I won't lie." There had been times in my past life that I COULD have said such a thing, and not thought much of it, but since I have come to know the Lord, His life and ways have grown within me, and I no longer do such things.

And then I meditated upon HOW these things grew within me. I know that I have no good of and within myself, and I know that there have been times that the Holy Spirit has come upon me in a way that I felt almost completely removed from my old self, and through these occurrences I learned that the Holy Spirit within me is fully able to pull me away from my old self, and lead me in newness of life. (I also know that some people never have these radical occurrences, yet the Holy Spirit does the same working in them.) As I wondered about these things, I wished that I could have the Spirit flowing continuously within me, and then being perfect would be easy, and I realized that this IS perfection...to be flowing in the Spirit. But then, I also realized that for some reason, this doesn't happen very often; so I wondered, Why? . . . . . . .

But one thing I would be remiss if I failed to address it: Just because we have the Holy Spirit and we are conscious of eternal life dwelling within our beings, we can't get up on a high horse and think that we are any better than anyone else...and I mean anyone. Just as in the story of Gideon, God choses who He wishes and ordains to do different things. (I hesitate to use the word 'ordain', because of it's highly religious connotations.) Let's just say that we all have a job to do. In the case of Gideon, the thousands that were not chosen for the job went home. That's it...they went home. No condemnation; no judgment. We all live differently, and we all have different circumstances in our lives; good and bad. If I know things of God that I think my neighbor knows nothing about, I shouldn't place these things out on my sleeve and think that I am better. We just don't know what God is doing or will do in another person's life. It's not for us to judge. The Apostles gave their complete lives to God, all the way even to being martyred. Few of us will even come close to the selflessness that they had, yet is a believer cast out of heaven because of that? I think not. God's Kingdom is just that: a Kingdom. It has boundaries. The King rules within the boundaries. The King may have authority outside His Kingdom, but it doesn't mean that He totally rules there. God has spent all the time that man has been on earth as owner and authority over earth, but He hasn't ruled in totality yet, and it is a while before that happens. We have to be careful and respectful to others. The guy that we look down on today, we may find closer to God than we will be, in the end.
Excellent post! Our elder made some comments about the workings of the Holy Spirit in his Sunday sermon, ""Remember that His Spirit will not lead us into sin if we let that Spirit lead, guide and direct us. It will not lead us into places that the Lord would not be pleased with; it will not lead us to say words He would not be pleased with; it will not put clothes on us that He would not be pleased with." [see post on http://www.city-data.com/forum/group...ible-talk.html ]

It was so true what you said about having the Holy Spirit not giving us a license to look down on anybody. The parable about the Pharisee and the publican in Luke 18 ended when Christ said of the publican who would not lift up his head to pray saying, "God be merciful to me a sinner," went down to his house justified rather than the Pharisee who was bragging about how righteous he was'
See Luke 17:[9] Doth he thank that servant because he did the things that were commanded him? I trow not. [10] So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do. When we are obedient to our Lord, it is the Holy Spirit that is doing the good works in and through us and we have nothing of which we can boast.

Last edited by Robert M Prince; 01-15-2014 at 06:22 PM..
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