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Old 11-05-2013, 09:19 AM
 
Location: a nation with hope
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Then you say that salvation is conditional?

If so, how do you explain the thief on the cross?
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Old 11-05-2013, 09:36 AM
 
Location: california
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The confession and recognition for whom Jesus is were his recognition of repentance and obedience .
Matthew 7;21,22,23, John 15; all, are a demonstration of conditional relationship one which requires obedience not to paper or other men, but the the Holy spirit Jesus provided His believers.
Obedience is key ,Jesus demonstrate it and expects it , so did God through out all scriptures starting with Genesis 3;
What you know is not as significant as whom you obey.
Men distorted Jesus gospel to fit their own agenda.
Jesus said blessed are they that do hunger and thirst after righteousness,(obedience) Not self govern but God govern.
With out the Holy Spirit one cannot know the will of God . Attempting to circumvent this relationship via the scriptures does not satisfy God's agenda.
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Old 11-05-2013, 10:33 AM
 
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Originally Posted by southward bound View Post
Then you say that salvation is conditional?

If so, how do you explain the thief on the cross?
But the thief was about to die.
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Old 11-05-2013, 11:49 AM
 
Location: North Carolina
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Quote:
Originally Posted by southward bound View Post
Then you say that salvation is conditional?

If so, how do you explain the thief on the cross?
Arleigh is right that salvation is conditional. See 1John 2:[4] He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
The thief on the cross obviously was accepted as having truly repented and our Savior knew with His omniscience that he would have been an obedient disciple. Jesus came to save sinners FROM their sins, not IN them. See Matt. 1:[21] And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people FROM their sins.
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Old 11-05-2013, 11:54 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Robert M Prince View Post
ARE DENOMINATIONS IN KEEPING WITH GOD’S WILL?
Many people in our day are convinced that, “If you believe that Jesus is the Son of God and accept Him as your personal Savior, you are saved, and that there is nothing you can do to cause you to lose that salvation.”
But our Savior Himself made high expectations of those who would be His true followers. In the 14th chapter of John, He said, “If ye love me, keep my commandments,” also “Whosoever forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple,” Luke 14:33. In Acts chapter 5, St. Peter said that God gives the Holy Ghost to “them that OBEY Him.” So we must repent and have a mind to obey Christ if we are to receive His Holy Spirit, and I believe that Spirit gives us the power to resist committing willful sins. We know that we are prone to make mistakes every day, but that, “If we confess our sins , he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness,” I John 1:10.
St. Paul wrote to the Corinthians “That ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you, but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment,” I Cor 1:10. Now we know that Jesus told His Apostles, “He that heareth you heareth me, and he that despiseth you despiseth me; and he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me” Luke 10:16. He also said, “He that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me, and he that receiveth me, receiveth him that sent me,” John 13:20. Also we know that Jesus personally struck Paul down on the road to Damascus and that St. Paul declared his credentials in several of his epistles that he was called of Christ Jesus to be an Apostle.
Jesus also prayed to his Father in John 17:11, that his followers should be one as He and the Father were one.
So if we are to be obedient to Christ and also to take heed to all the admonitions of His Apostles, it seems like an impossible task. But if we truly have the Holy Spirit, then He does the work in us, and we have nothing of which we can boast. According to Jesus, ”When ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do,” Luke 17:10.
Does it make any sense that denominational differences are looked upon as being perfectly normal in our day, with people generally believing that almost all "conventional denominations” are branches of the Christian church and that all who have accepted Jesus Christ as their “personal” Savior are assured of going to heaven when they die.
Do we really believe that our all-wise, all-powerful Father in heaven looks down on this earth and approves of all those who claim to have been called of Him to preach the Gospel, even though they are often preaching things that are exactly opposite of what others are preaching.
I personally believe that Jesus gave the perfect formula for solving this gross confusion when he said in John 7:17 that, “If any man will do His will, he shall know of the doctrine whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.” I believe that if we have truly repented and pray earnestly for Christ and His Father to show us any area of our life where we are not doing His will, they will show this to us and give us the Holy Spirit. That Spirit will make it possible for us to be obedient to Them, which is impossible for us to do if we have a carnal mind. “Because the carnal mind is enmity against God for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his” Romans 8:7-9.
Jonathan Edwards wrote in 1851, “I am come now to the last distinguishing mark of holy affections that I shall mention: XII. Gracious and holy affections have their exercise and fruit in Christian practice. . . John 15:14, ‘Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.’. . If the old nature be indeed mortified, and a new and heavenly nature infused, then may it well be expected, that men will walk in newness of life, and continue to do so to the end of their days. . . Some may be ready to object against what has been said of Christian practice being the chief evidence of the truth of grace, that this is a legal doctrine, and that this making practice a thing of such great importance in religion, magnifies works, and tends to lead men to make too much of their own doings, to the diminution of the glory of free grace, and does not seem well to consist with the great gospel doctrine of justification by faith alone. It is our works being the price of God’s favor, and not their being the sign of it, that is the thing which is inconsistent with the freeness of that favor. . . It is not the worthiness or loveliness of our works, or anything in us, which is in any wise accepted with God, as a balance for the guilt of sin. Thus we are justified only by the righteousness of Christ, and not by our righteousness.” (A Treatise Concerning Religious Affections; Worcester edition.)
We know that Jesus said, “Not everyone that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he that doeth the will of my Father in heaven” Matt. 7:21. .Jesus made it perfectly clear that, “He that hath my commandments and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me; and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him and make our abode with him. He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings” John 14:21 & 24. And as we said, He told His Apostles that if we hear them we hear Christ Himself, so we are expected to have no divisions among us, as St. Paul admonished the Corinthians.
We certainly acknowledge that Christ has had true disciples in all ages of time since His crucifixion and resurrection, but I believe that, as the time of His return to earth draws nearer, He is calling for those who have truly repented and whose primary goal in life is to do God’s will, that we lay down our denominational differences and follow Him. I believe we should be careful not to judge others too harshly, since they must answer to their maker and not to us. But I firmly believe that if we are truly doing His will, Jesus promised us, “We SHALL KNOW of the doctrine whether it be of God" or whether we speak of ourselves.
If the reader sees anything in this document that is not backed up by scripture, you would do me a favor by bringing it to my attention.

We strive to follow the admonitions of James 3:[17] But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy.
Many of the forums are anything but peaceable, gentle or easily entreated. They get quite fractious at times.
Matt. 7:[21] Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Best wishes to all who are seeking to know and DO the will of our heavenly Father, which is a MUST requirement for salvation,
Bob Prince
No they are not.
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Old 11-05-2013, 05:04 PM
 
Location: a nation with hope
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Quote:
Originally Posted by expatCA View Post
No they are not.
I agree, and have thought so for a long time.

The problem is we cannot agree on which denomination is the "right" one, so we are splintered into many.

If anything, we should all belong to Messianic Judaism.

As for the matter of salvation being conditional, I wholeheartedly disagree. I do not believe in salvation +plus+ something else. If that were so, then Jesus didn't have to die. We could have been saved just by believing in Him and being obedient, which takes us full circle back the the Law.

Because we are washed white by the blood Jesus shed for the remission of sins -- note, remission -- it was finished then. We do not have to wait for sanctification, or the perfecting of our obedience, nor anything else. We do not have to work at it to maintain it.

Last edited by southward bound; 11-05-2013 at 05:17 PM..
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Old 11-05-2013, 07:28 PM
 
Location: Southern Oregon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert M Prince View Post
Arleigh is right that salvation is conditional. See 1John 2:[4] He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
The thief on the cross obviously was accepted as having truly repented and our Savior knew with His omniscience that he would have been an obedient disciple. Jesus came to save sinners FROM their sins, not IN them. See Matt. 1:[21] And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people FROM their sins.
Can I steal that quote?
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Old 11-06-2013, 02:19 AM
Zur
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by southward bound View Post
Then you say that salvation is conditional?

If so, how do you explain the thief on the cross?
If salvation would be unconditional, all would be saved. But only one on the cross was saved. Why? He fulfilled the conditions. He admitted that he was quilty. He believed on Christ, His innocence and asked Him for salvation. Jesus knew his heart and forgave and saved him the very moment, he died in Christ, that is the very last condition, that saves. To remain in Christ is conditional according to the bible, therefore salvation is also conditional. Every one that remains in Christ is secure and has not to worry about anything, it is Christ in us the hope of glory.
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Old 11-06-2013, 03:13 AM
 
Location: Florida
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A house divided against itself cannot stand. The church is built by God and made of precious stones. Denominations are created by men (and women). But of course God manages to work regardless of labels and even though many do not perceive that we are all one in Christ.
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Old 11-06-2013, 03:16 AM
 
Location: Florida
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Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
I don't believe that Jesus Christ ever intended that His Church split up into various denominations. He established "one Church," not many. Not 40,000. Not 4. The problem is that, as Vizio pointed out (and yes, folks, history has been made. Katzpur and Vizio actually agree on something), "as long as human beings are in charge, we will see denominations." You could take ten people who have no religious background whatsoever and give them each a Bible to read. After everyone had finished reading it, you could get them together and say, "Okay, we're going to start a Church, and it's going to be based upon what the Bible says, since everything we need to know to return to God's presence is found within the pages of the book you just finished reading." You know what you'd end up with? Ten different denominations. Some of them would have a lot in common with others, and some would see things very differently from the rest. But every last one would find at least one point on which to disagree with the others and would insist that his interpretation was the right one.

I believe that there is such a thing as absolute truth. I believe that God wants us to find it. That said, we need to realize that none of us is God and none of us has all of the answers. We're all just doing the best we can and are hoping that God will be loving and merciful to us all. The fact that there are many different denominations in the world today doesn't mean that these denominations need to hate each other, label one another as "non-Christian," or condemn one other's members to an eternity in Hell. If anyone reading the Bible thought that was Christ's message, they need to stop right now and re-read the book.
As always, words of wisdom from you. Well said.
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