Are denominations in keeping with god’s will? Part II (purification, tradition)

[Dave_n_Tenn]

If we understand the Church is a body... then we understand that the body needs lots of different parts to be a "body". All connected, interdependent, all supporting each other but having different functions. We feel each others pain and jubilation, we struggle with ouselves, we even despise how we look or feel. We get sick, bleed and get injured. We can even self inflict injury or neglect ourselves at our own expense.

Yes... denominations are a product of life... and we are alive. From a single man we call Jesus ... we are so many parts and yet connected, but never at peace with ourselves. Just like you and me.

[Robert M Prince]

Originally Posted by Dave_n_Tenn

If we understand the Church is a body... then we understand that the body needs lots of different parts to be a "body". All connected, interdependent, all supporting each other but having different functions. We feel each others pain and jubilation, we struggle with ouselves, we even despise how we look or feel. We get sick, bleed and get injured. We can even self inflict injury or neglect ourselves at our own expense.

Yes... denominations are a product of life... and we are alive. From a single man we call Jesus ... we are so many parts and yet connected, but never at peace with ourselves. Just like you and me.

Dave - you make a good point, but I would remind our readers, as I said in the introduction to this thread, St. Paul said in 1Cor.1:[10] Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing and that there be no divisions among you, but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment. Paul was clearly called by Jesus to be an Apostle, and Jesus said to His Apostles in Luke 10:[16] He that heareth you heareth me; and he that despiseth you despiseth me; and he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me.
I personally believe that as the time for the second coming of Christ draws nearer, He is calling on His people to be more as the early church was described in Acts 4:[32] "And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul." I believe it is the will of our Savior and His Father that we lay down our will and our way, seeking to be guided by the Holy Spirit in all our thoughts and actions. If this is not our top priority, there may be some doubt as to whether or not we have truly repented and believed in Christ as our Savior. He said, "[15] If ye love me, keep my commandments" John 14:15.

[Dave_n_Tenn]

Originally Posted by Robert M Prince

Dave - you make a good point, but I would remind our readers, as I said in the introduction to this thread, St. Paul said in 1Cor.1:[10] Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing and that there be no divisions among you, but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment. Paul was clearly called by Jesus to be an Apostle, and Jesus said to His Apostles in Luke 10:[16] He that heareth you heareth me; and he that despiseth you despiseth me; and he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me.
I personally believe that as the time for the second coming of Christ draws nearer, He is calling on His people to be more as the early church was described in Acts 4:[32] "And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul." I believe it is the will of our Savior and His Father that we lay down our will and our way, seeking to be guided by the Holy Spirit in all our thoughts and actions. If this is not our top priority, there may be some doubt as to whether or not we have truly repented and believed in Christ as our Savior. He said, "[15] If ye love me, keep my commandments" John 14:15.

No one denies what has been said... I just point out the human condition and how the Gospel speaks to that reality. The church will not come together I'm afraid without divine intervention, Satan clearly has his claws into her too deep. The Church needs to gather herself as a crusade, but the will is no longer there.

I don't concern myself "when" the second coming will happen but revel in the truth that it will. I do not have a sense of urgency, for each day presents itself as God intended. I do however try to focus upon my salvation and the salvation of others.

I simply ask that He remember me and try to be repentant. If I recall, It worked for a thief, so I'm thinking this pile of filthy rags is looking the right way. I can't change the world but I can change my world.

[Robert M Prince]

Originally Posted by Dave_n_Tenn

I don't concern myself "when" the second coming will happen but revel in the truth that it will. I do not have a sense of urgency, for each day presents itself as God intended. I do however try to focus upon my salvation and the salvation of others.

I simply ask that He remember me and try to be repentant. If I recall, It worked for a thief, so I'm thinking this pile of filthy rags is looking the right way. I can't change the world but I can change my world.

Great post. Our challenge is to ask the Lord with the assistance of the Holy Spirit to lay down our will and our way to do the will of our Father in Heaven, a necessity for our salvation. Matt. 7:[21] Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

[Katzpur]

Originally Posted by Vizio

OK. If you wan to retract it, great.

I'm not retracting it. What on earth would give you that idea? I'm not going to post a list of 40,000 different denominations for two very good reasons: (1) I would have to copy and paste the entire list, which would be against the forum rules. (2) Do you have any idea how many posts it would take to post such a list? Links to sites that provide such lists have been posted in the past. Do a search and you'll undoubtedly run across a few.

And you're right....God didn't establish even 4 churches. He established one.

See, we agree.

Moderator cut: edit for the below

Moderator cut: Orphaned response

[bartstarr1960]

I think Katzpur and Vizio are on to something. Even from the very beginning all the way back to churches Paul and Peter planted, once man got his hands on them the message got off track, some way off track. In Revelation 2-3 John admonishes and warns five of the seven churches. Several of Paul's epistles were aimed at churches needing correction and additional teaching.

It's human nature to try and make a square peg fit a round hole. We're seldom content without whittling and chipping away until we get the peg the shape we want it to be. We must take care not to change the shape into something so far from the original it is no longer recognized as the original.

[the city]

Originally Posted by Robert M Prince

ARE DENOMINATIONS IN KEEPING WITH GOD’S WILL?
Many people in our day are convinced that, “If you believe that Jesus is the Son of God and accept Him as your personal Savior, you are saved, and that there is nothing you can do to cause you to lose that salvation.”
But our Savior Himself made high expectations of those who would be His true followers. In the 14th chapter of John, He said, “If ye love me, keep my commandments,” also “Whosoever forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple,” Luke 14:33. In Acts chapter 5, St. Peter said that God gives the Holy Ghost to “them that OBEY Him.” So we must repent and have a mind to obey Christ if we are to receive His Holy Spirit, and I believe that Spirit gives us the power to resist committing willful sins. We know that we are prone to make mistakes every day, but that, “If we confess our sins , he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness,” I John 1:10.
St. Paul wrote to the Corinthians “That ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you, but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment,” I Cor 1:10. Now we know that Jesus told His Apostles, “He that heareth you heareth me, and he that despiseth you despiseth me; and he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me” Luke 10:16. He also said, “He that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me, and he that receiveth me, receiveth him that sent me,” John 13:20. Also we know that Jesus personally struck Paul down on the road to Damascus and that St. Paul declared his credentials in several of his epistles that he was called of Christ Jesus to be an Apostle.
Jesus also prayed to his Father in John 17:11, that his followers should be one as He and the Father were one.
So if we are to be obedient to Christ and also to take heed to all the admonitions of His Apostles, it seems like an impossible task. But if we truly have the Holy Spirit, then He does the work in us, and we have nothing of which we can boast. According to Jesus, ”When ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do,” Luke 17:10.
Does it make any sense that denominational differences are looked upon as being perfectly normal in our day, with people generally believing that almost all "conventional denominations” are branches of the Christian church and that all who have accepted Jesus Christ as their “personal” Savior are assured of going to heaven when they die.
Do we really believe that our all-wise, all-powerful Father in heaven looks down on this earth and approves of all those who claim to have been called of Him to preach the Gospel, even though they are often preaching things that are exactly opposite of what others are preaching.
I personally believe that Jesus gave the perfect formula for solving this gross confusion when he said in John 7:17 that, “If any man will do His will, he shall know of the doctrine whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.” I believe that if we have truly repented and pray earnestly for Christ and His Father to show us any area of our life where we are not doing His will, they will show this to us and give us the Holy Spirit. That Spirit will make it possible for us to be obedient to Them, which is impossible for us to do if we have a carnal mind. “Because the carnal mind is enmity against God for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his” Romans 8:7-9.
Jonathan Edwards wrote in 1851, “I am come now to the last distinguishing mark of holy affections that I shall mention: XII. Gracious and holy affections have their exercise and fruit in Christian practice. . . John 15:14, ‘Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.’. . If the old nature be indeed mortified, and a new and heavenly nature infused, then may it well be expected, that men will walk in newness of life, and continue to do so to the end of their days. . . Some may be ready to object against what has been said of Christian practice being the chief evidence of the truth of grace, that this is a legal doctrine, and that this making practice a thing of such great importance in religion, magnifies works, and tends to lead men to make too much of their own doings, to the diminution of the glory of free grace, and does not seem well to consist with the great gospel doctrine of justification by faith alone. It is our works being the price of God’s favor, and not their being the sign of it, that is the thing which is inconsistent with the freeness of that favor. . . It is not the worthiness or loveliness of our works, or anything in us, which is in any wise accepted with God, as a balance for the guilt of sin. Thus we are justified only by the righteousness of Christ, and not by our righteousness.” (A Treatise Concerning Religious Affections; Worcester edition.)
We know that Jesus said, “Not everyone that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he that doeth the will of my Father in heaven” Matt. 7:21. .Jesus made it perfectly clear that, “He that hath my commandments and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me; and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him and make our abode with him. He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings” John 14:21 & 24. And as we said, He told His Apostles that if we hear them we hear Christ Himself, so we are expected to have no divisions among us, as St. Paul admonished the Corinthians.
We certainly acknowledge that Christ has had true disciples in all ages of time since His crucifixion and resurrection, but I believe that, as the time of His return to earth draws nearer, He is calling for those who have truly repented and whose primary goal in life is to do God’s will, that we lay down our denominational differences and follow Him. I believe we should be careful not to judge others too harshly, since they must answer to their maker and not to us. But I firmly believe that if we are truly doing His will, Jesus promised us, “We SHALL KNOW of the doctrine whether it be of God" or whether we speak of ourselves.
If the reader sees anything in this document that is not backed up by scripture, you would do me a favor by bringing it to my attention.

We strive to follow the admonitions of James 3:[17] But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy.
Many of the forums are anything but peaceable, gentle or easily entreated. They get quite fractious at times.
Matt. 7:[21] Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Best wishes to all who are seeking to know and DO the will of our heavenly Father, which is a MUST requirement for salvation,
Bob Prince

I would say the more liberal churches which don't hold the bible as the upmost authority or disbelieve parts have become more far from God. I know some methodist and lutheran churches that have fallen into this category.

Regarding the other topic, the verses mentioned are very confidential.

There are 2 reasons why I believe these verses are mentioned:
a) to speak to those who think becoming a christian means you can sin freely because they believe they can never lose their salvation. Becoming a Christian means you accept you are sinner (feel the guilt) and accept salvation (being saved) by Jesus. Accepting you are sinner means feeling the guilt means you know you have to turn away from your sins much as possible and continuously repent for our sins.

b) to speak to those who go back and fourth from believing in Christ and not believing in Christ. It's possible for some one to get lost (not follow Jesus) and return to believing in Jesus, but only when you are following Christ will you receive his salvation. I believe one verse specifically states to not say you are Christian when you are not and I believe this is the son of blasphemy.

[Robert M Prince]

Originally Posted by bartstarr1960

I think Katzpur and Vizio are on to something. Even from the very beginning all the way back to churches Paul and Peter planted, once man got his hands on them the message got off track, some way off track. In Revelation 2-3 John admonishes and warns five of the seven churches. Several of Paul's epistles were aimed at churches needing correction and additional teaching.

It's human nature to try and make a square peg fit a round hole. We're seldom content without whittling and chipping away until we get the peg the shape we want it to be. We must take care not to change the shape into something so far from the original it is no longer recognized as the original.

You are absolutely right that many so-called Christians are trying to turn the Word of God into a lie [by approving of homoxuality, abortion, and many other lusts of our carnal flesh.] A round peg will not fit into God's square commandments.

Originally Posted by the city

I would say the more liberal churches which don't hold the bible as the upmost authority or disbelieve parts have become more far from God. I know some methodist and lutheran churches that have fallen into this category.

You and Bartstarr have posted two great items. Jesus said in Matt. 5:[6] Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled [I believe He was refering to being filled with the Holy Ghost, which Peter said in Acts 5:32 that God gives as a gift to those who obey Him] and[8] Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God [this concurs with Heb. 12:[14] Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:

[GoodToBeHome]

Originally Posted by Katzpur

I don't believe that Jesus Christ ever intended that His Church split up into various denominations. He established "one Church," not many. Not 40,000. Not 4. The problem is that, as Vizio pointed out (and yes, folks, history has been made. Katzpur and Vizio actually agree on something), "as long as human beings are in charge, we will see denominations." You could take ten people who have no religious background whatsoever and give them each a Bible to read. After everyone had finished reading it, you could get them together and say, "Okay, we're going to start a Church, and it's going to be based upon what the Bible says, since everything we need to know to return to God's presence is found within the pages of the book you just finished reading." You know what you'd end up with? Ten different denominations. Some of them would have a lot in common with others, and some would see things very differently from the rest. But every last one would find at least one point on which to disagree with the others and would insist that his interpretation was the right one.

I believe that there is such a thing as absolute truth. I believe that God wants us to find it. That said, we need to realize that none of us is God and none of us has all of the answers. We're all just doing the best we can and are hoping that God will be loving and merciful to us all. The fact that there are many different denominations in the world today doesn't mean that these denominations need to hate each other, label one another as "non-Christian," or condemn one other's members to an eternity in Hell. If anyone reading the Bible thought that was Christ's message, they need to stop right now and re-read the book.

Katz, you should be Catholic.

[Katzpur]

Originally Posted by GoodToBeHome

Katz, you should be Catholic.

Well, I could make a heck of a lot worse choices.