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Old 10-23-2013, 11:46 AM
 
21,977 posts, read 16,750,349 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerwade View Post
And, I have informed you on many occasions that you are not my teacher.
Understand this one thing, if nothing else: I do not believe in separation.

"You would be better-off, selling your packaged ideologies to someone who will buy it."


With this post you are expressing your intent to continue to simply ignore the Scriptures plain revelation of the fact that Jesus bore our sins in His body and paid the penalty for them. That penalty being spiritual death which is separation from God. It was you who came on this thread attempting to refute these things. You have been shown from the Scriptures that your position is in error.

Last edited by Mike555; 10-23-2013 at 11:58 AM..
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Old 10-23-2013, 11:56 AM
 
21,977 posts, read 16,750,349 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wardendresden View Post
Resuscitation is the restoration to life of one APPARENTLY dead.
resuscitation - definition of resuscitation in the Medical dictionary - by the Free Online Medical Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.

Resurrection refers to being raised from the dead.

1. the act of rising from the dead.
2. the rising of Christ after His death and burial.
3. the rising of the dead on Judgment Day.
4. the state of those risen from the dead.
5. a rising again, as from decay, disuse, etc.; revival.
Resurrection | Define Resurrection at Dictionary.com

There was no "apparently" dead status with regard to Lazarus. In fact, resurrection as understood by Jews occurred earlier than Lazarus, and was performed by those after Jesus at least according to Scripture.

Others who were raised from the dead in the Bible:
In 1 Kings 17:22 Elijah raised a boy from the dead.
In 2 Kings 4:34-35 Elisha raised a boy from the dead.
In 2 Kings 13:20-21 Elisha's bones raised a man from the dead.
In Acts 9:40-41 Peter raised a woman from the dead.
In Acts 20:9-20 Paul raised a man from the dead.

There are some Christians that try to put a different spin on resurrection, but the fleshly resurrection of Lazarus is seen in and of itself as an important spiritual message for the here and now by other Christians---


http://www.iswasandwillbe.com/Firstf...esurrected.php

To place the meaning of resurrection as simply meaning only a "final" resurrection of the uncorrupted body" is take away it's meaning for Christians who are alive from the "dead" in the here and now.

In that sense, resurrection is an absolutely proper word to apply to Lazarus.
No one was bodily resurrected before Jesus. He was the first to have been bodily resurrected never to die again. Lazarus was not resurrected in a body of immortality. He was resuscitated in his mortal body and died again.

Jesus is the first fruits in the order of the resurrection. And then AFTER Him those who are Christ's at His coming as per 1 Corinthians 15:23.
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Old 10-23-2013, 12:07 PM
 
Location: Denver, CO
9,325 posts, read 5,514,141 times
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Default Substiturtion?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wardendresden View Post
From very near the earliest Christians, substitutionary atonement has been the theology of Christians. Perhaps only the disciples did not see it in the beginning--remember they protested when Jesus pointed out to them that His death was imminent.
I'm going to have question my own statement above after doing a little more reading. Not all Christians see Christ's sacrifice on the Cross as a substitution. And there are some claims that the thought is only about 1000 years old.

Quote:
I have known for a long time that the early Christians had never heard of a "substitutionary" atonement. They did not use terms like "died in our place" when discussing Jesus' death on the cross.
This theory is also known as the "satisfaction" or "penal substitution" theory of the atonement. The terms suggest that Jesus "satisfied" God's requirement for justice and substituted himself for our punishment. He thus "paid the penalty" for our sins.


The early Christians didn't think in these terms, either.


The ideas of satisfaction and penal substitution, in which Jesus takes a punishment that was due for our sins in our place, are both unknown to the early churches and surprisingly lacking in Scriptural support. The satisfaction theory was introduced by Anselm, the Roman Catholic bishop of Canterbury, in the eleventh century, then developed into the penal substitution theory by Thomas Aquinas about 150 years later. Despite the novelty of their ideas, Thomas Aquinas was so respected as a theologian that the substitutionary atonement theory has become the standard of Christian thought in the west ever since. (To this day, the Eastern Orthodox churches have a much more early Christian understanding of the atonement.)
The Substitutionary Atonement of Jesus Christ on the Cross

In an article entitled "When Jesus Died, A Conversation on Atonement" one responder to the author's question said--

Quote:
I grew up with the Penal Substitutionary view of Atonement, but after much thought and deconstruction have changed the way I view this idea. For every doctrine I claim belief in, I have to ask myself two questions:

1) what does this idea say about God? Because if I get God wrong, Iíve got everything wrong.

2) what are the fruits? In Matthew 7:15-16, Jesus says that you can know a false prophet by their fruits. So I want to think about beliefs in terms of what fruit they bear, and in Galatians 5:22-23 weíre told that good fruit would be love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control.


With this in mind, believing in a God who cannot be satisfied without some serious torture and blood paints a picture of a bloodthirsty, vengeful God who validates the nature within us that seeks retribution when people hurt us. I donít think that idea produces good fruit, nor does it paint a picture of a loving God, and 1 John 4:8 says that God is love. Whatís more, it seems to directly contradict with the teachings of Jesus in regards to enemies. Jesus told us in Matthew 5 that the way to treat enemies was not to resist them, but if one of them hits you, let them hit you on the other side of the face. If someone demands something of you, give more. And donít resist an evil person but love them and bless them. Now, if God canít let sin go until he gets torture and blood, than it seems that God canít follow His own instructionsÖ.
Geoff Glinister, Aug 19, 2013


(Another responder writes)


The writings of the early church fathers heavily favor the moral influence view. As the timeline and cultural shift of Christianity moved away from Greek thought and writings to a Latin, Roman mindset, the penal substitutionary view emerges (and one might expect). Personally, Iíve found that the picture is always clearer and truer the closer one comes to the original source.
Robert McMullen, Aug. 20, 3013
When Jesus Died: A Conversation on Atonement | Bryan Berghoef

I'm not ready to relinquish my hold on substitutionary sacrifice, but I'm ready to read more and think about it. What may change my view is if I indeed find that the substitutionary idea arose in the medieval ages. Then perhaps my view will be more Eastern Orthodox.
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Old 10-23-2013, 12:09 PM
 
Location: Denver, CO
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
No one was bodily resurrected before Jesus. He was the first to have been bodily resurrected never to die again. Lazarus was not resurrected in a body of immortality. He was resuscitated in his mortal body and died again.

Jesus is the first fruits in the order of the resurrection. And then AFTER Him those who are Christ's at His coming as per 1 Corinthians 15:23.
Yes, but that is only true if one accepts an uncommon theory of resurrection, and a specific spiritual spin on the meaning of resurrection. And if Lazarus was not "bodily" resurrected, was he walking around as a "spirit." And were the others mentioned in the Bible walking around in the spirit as opposed to bodily? A body of immorality is simply a spin on the word resurrection.

I don't buy it. I like what other Christians believe about the meaning of Lazarus' resurrection because it makes more sense for the here and now.
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Old 10-23-2013, 12:25 PM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
21,978 posts, read 22,174,454 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
No one was bodily resurrected before Jesus. He was the first to have been bodily resurrected never to die again. Lazarus was not resurrected in a body of immortality. He was resuscitated in his mortal body and died again.
See, once in a while we agree on something 100%, Mike. This is one of those times. Once a person is resurrected, he receives a new immortal body and can never die again. Furthermore, he is no longer susceptible to disease, injury, etc. When Lazarus returned to life, he did not do so as a resurrected being.
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Old 10-23-2013, 12:32 PM
 
20,454 posts, read 9,864,420 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
With this post you are expressing your intent to continue to simply ignore the Scriptures plain revelation of the fact that Jesus bore our sins in His body and paid the penalty for them. That penalty being spiritual death which is separation from God. It was you who came on this thread attempting to refute these things. You have been shown from the Scriptures that your position is in error.
So, you are fundamentally opposed to democracy and liberalism?
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Old 10-23-2013, 01:04 PM
 
Location: Southern Oregon
16,305 posts, read 7,683,745 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wardendresden View Post
I'm not ready to relinquish my hold on substitutionary sacrifice, but I'm ready to read more and think about it. What may change my view is if I indeed find that the substitutionary idea arose in the medieval ages. Then perhaps my view will be more Eastern Orthodox.
for being able to see a need for further study. Read ing in the NT it is clear that there were several lines of imagery about the sacrifice of Christ and the mechanism of "atonement." The mechanism is far less important than the fact, however, and my personal take is a version of Christus Victor in which Jesus invalidated Law as basis for judgement, leaving the condition of the heart as reflected in the New Commandment for that.
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Old 10-23-2013, 01:15 PM
 
Location: california
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Believing is not pure thought ,it is investment, action, commitment, obligation, and more.
If you believe in an airplane and it's pilot ,there is not trouble taking a ride in it. proof of believing is getting in and letting it do what it does.
Believing in some one is being able to let them catch you as you fall backwards . If you don't trust them you will not give them that responsibility. It is not mere words .
God expects obedience , that's what Jesus taught that's what Jesus lived, that's why Jesus provided us the Holy Spirit to teach us God's will from day to day .
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Old 10-23-2013, 02:21 PM
 
Location: Denver, CO
9,325 posts, read 5,514,141 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arleigh View Post
Believing is not pure thought ,it is investment, action, commitment, obligation, and more.
If you believe in an airplane and it's pilot ,there is not trouble taking a ride in it. proof of believing is getting in and letting it do what it does.
Believing in some one is being able to let them catch you as you fall backwards . If you don't trust them you will not give them that responsibility. It is not mere words .
God expects obedience , that's what Jesus taught that's what Jesus lived, that's why Jesus provided us the Holy Spirit to teach us God's will from day to day .
Amen. Can't give you another rep yet--too soon.
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Old 10-23-2013, 02:26 PM
 
Location: Denver, CO
9,325 posts, read 5,514,141 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nateswift View Post
for being able to see a need for further study. Read ing in the NT it is clear that there were several lines of imagery about the sacrifice of Christ and the mechanism of "atonement." The mechanism is far less important than the fact, however, and my personal take is a version of Christus Victor in which Jesus invalidated Law as basis for judgement, leaving the condition of the heart as reflected in the New Commandment for that.
Nate, I've always claimed to follow "Seek and ye shall find," and I've never stopped seeking or evolving in my faith and beliefs--that's how I changed from a fundamentalist into a more liberal faith and thought pattern while never even considering rejecting Christ's claim on my life.

The only ones I distrust are those who are absolutely certain of the answers in their heads.
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