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Old 10-23-2013, 02:33 PM
 
Location: New England
32,239 posts, read 21,123,632 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wardendresden View Post
Nate, I've always claimed to follow "Seek and ye shall find," and I've never stopped seeking or evolving in my faith and beliefs--that's how I changed from a fundamentalist into a more liberal faith and thought pattern while never even considering rejecting Christ's claim on my life.

The only ones I distrust are those who are absolutely certain of the answers in their heads.
This is very evident Wardendresden. I've probably enjoyed every single post of yours, even the ones i differ in opinion too. The OP would be better titled "how open is your heart to change?"
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Old 10-23-2013, 03:05 PM
 
21,903 posts, read 16,711,964 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wardendresden View Post
Yes, but that is only true if one accepts an uncommon theory of resurrection, and a specific spiritual spin on the meaning of resurrection. And if Lazarus was not "bodily" resurrected, was he walking around as a "spirit." And were the others mentioned in the Bible walking around in the spirit as opposed to bodily? A body of immorality is simply a spin on the word resurrection.

I don't buy it. I like what other Christians believe about the meaning of Lazarus' resurrection because it makes more sense for the here and now.
No one was bodily resurrected prior to the resurrection of Jesus Christ. People were restored to physical life (that means their souls were returned to their bodies) prior to the resurrection of Jesus, only to die again at a later time. Jesus Christ was the first to be resurrected in a body of immortality which was never again subject to physical death.

Again, as 1 Corinthians 15:23 states, Jesus was the first fruits of those who are His at His coming. AFTER Jesus' resurrection comes the resurrection of those at His coming.

The word 'AFTER' precludes anyone being resurrected before Jesus was resurrected.

People were raised from the dead prior to the resurrection of Jesus, but their being raised was not a resurrection, but a resuscitation into their mortal bodies.

And, you know, the thing is, I said in the other post that Lazarus was resuscitated INTO HIS MORTAL BODY. That means that he was not walking around as a spirit. It means just what it says. Lazarus' body was resuscitated and died again at a later time. So how is it that you think I implied that he was walking around as a spirit?

Last edited by Mike555; 10-23-2013 at 03:13 PM..
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Old 10-23-2013, 03:17 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
See, once in a while we agree on something 100%, Mike. This is one of those times. Once a person is resurrected, he receives a new immortal body and can never die again. Furthermore, he is no longer susceptible to disease, injury, etc. When Lazarus returned to life, he did not do so as a resurrected being.
Hi Katzpur. Yes, sometimes we do agree. It's nice when that happens isn't it?
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Old 10-23-2013, 03:33 PM
 
21,903 posts, read 16,711,964 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arleigh View Post
Believing is not pure thought ,it is investment, action, commitment, obligation, and more.
If you believe in an airplane and it's pilot ,there is not trouble taking a ride in it. proof of believing is getting in and letting it do what it does.
Believing in some one is being able to let them catch you as you fall backwards . If you don't trust them you will not give them that responsibility. It is not mere words .
God expects obedience , that's what Jesus taught that's what Jesus lived, that's why Jesus provided us the Holy Spirit to teach us God's will from day to day .
The problem with legalists is that those who hold to legalism do not understand the difference between experiential sanctification which is the result of ongoing spiritual growth in the already eternally saved believers life, and the fact that a person is justified and positionally sanctified at the point of faith alone in Christ alone. Therefore legalists try to impose works as a condition for eternal life. And so when someone points out that you are saved by grace through faith, you assume that that person is advocating not having works.

To believe on Christ for the forgiveness of sins means simply to accept as true the assertion that Jesus died for your sins and rose again, and therefore rely on Him for your eternal salvation. Not on your efforts.
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Old 10-23-2013, 03:58 PM
 
Location: Denver, CO
9,293 posts, read 5,500,064 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
No one was bodily resurrected prior to the resurrection of Jesus Christ. People were restored to physical life (that means their souls were returned to their bodies) prior to the resurrection of Jesus, only to die again at a later time. Jesus Christ was the first to be resurrected in a body of immortality which was never again subject to physical death.

Again, as 1 Corinthians 15:23 states, Jesus was the first fruits of those who are His at His coming. AFTER Jesus' resurrection comes the resurrection of those at His coming.

The word 'AFTER' precludes anyone being resurrected before Jesus was resurrected.

People were raised from the dead prior to the resurrection of Jesus, but their being raised was not a resurrection, but a resuscitation into their mortal bodies.
Semantics. If you were dead for four days and brought back to life, you were resurrected. Jesus said, "I am the resurrection," but He didn't give it?

Justin Martyr: The resurrection is a resurrection of the flesh which died. For the spirit dies not; the soul is in the body, and without a soul it cannot live. The body, when the soul forsakes it, is not. For the body is the house of the soul; and the soul the house of the spirit. These three, in all those who cherish a sincere hope and unquestioning faith in God, will be saved." (Justin Martyr, Chapter X.—The Body Saved, and Will Therefore Rise)

So if the soul is returned to the body how could it be anything other than a resurrection. Just as Jesus' soul would have to be returned to His body.

There now is in Christianity a popular belief of "absent from the body, present with the Lord," but this is relatively new to Christian beliefs. Most of the early beliefs were that the physical body, decomposed or not, would be brought back together to house the soul.

My contention is that if the soul and body were separate at any time, then bringing them back together constitutes "resurrection." The soul and body are reunited. The fact that there are some who believe that an "incorruptible" body will be supplied to everyone who is saved, doesn't discount the fact that Jesus was seen and TOUCHED in the physical body that He had on earth. People saw the scars from the nails and touched His side where the spear had been thrust.

Reuniting soul and body is resurrection and I don't care how many times it might occur, or whether or not the final result is "incorruptible."
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Old 10-23-2013, 04:07 PM
 
40,098 posts, read 26,761,498 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wardendresden View Post
I'm going to have question my own statement above after doing a little more reading. Not all Christians see Christ's sacrifice on the Cross as a substitution. And there are some claims that the thought is only about 1000 years old.
The Substitutionary Atonement of Jesus Christ on the Cross
In an article entitled "When Jesus Died, A Conversation on Atonement" one responder to the author's question said--
When Jesus Died: A Conversation on Atonement | Bryan Berghoef
I'm not ready to relinquish my hold on substitutionary sacrifice, but I'm ready to read more and think about it. What may change my view is if I indeed find that the substitutionary idea arose in the medieval ages. Then perhaps my view will be more Eastern Orthodox.
Substitution takes on a very different tone when viewed as a species-level achievement, Warden. We are to produce agape love toward God, each other and all life. Our ignorant savage ancestors were not even coming close and showed no signs of ever "getting it." Jesus was our species-level "designated hitter." He embodied a pure and perfect agape love . . . something we as a species were not remotely capable of achieving.

In that sense, His achievement substituted for our abject failure as a species. It ended up being a sacrifice in love because our ignorant savage and barbaric ancestors "knew not what they did." "No greater love has any man than that he give his life for another." Christ exhibited the supreme sacrifice in agape love for us ALL . . . including His torturers and murderers! He smote no one and sought vengeance against no one. THAT is the message of the substitution and Gospel of love.
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Old 10-23-2013, 06:18 PM
 
21,903 posts, read 16,711,964 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wardendresden View Post
Semantics. If you were dead for four days and brought back to life, you were resurrected. Jesus said, "I am the resurrection," but He didn't give it?

Justin Martyr: The resurrection is a resurrection of the flesh which died. For the spirit dies not; the soul is in the body, and without a soul it cannot live. The body, when the soul forsakes it, is not. For the body is the house of the soul; and the soul the house of the spirit. These three, in all those who cherish a sincere hope and unquestioning faith in God, will be saved." (Justin Martyr, Chapter X.—The Body Saved, and Will Therefore Rise)

So if the soul is returned to the body how could it be anything other than a resurrection. Just as Jesus' soul would have to be returned to His body.

There now is in Christianity a popular belief of "absent from the body, present with the Lord," but this is relatively new to Christian beliefs. Most of the early beliefs were that the physical body, decomposed or not, would be brought back together to house the soul.

My contention is that if the soul and body were separate at any time, then bringing them back together constitutes "resurrection." The soul and body are reunited. The fact that there are some who believe that an "incorruptible" body will be supplied to everyone who is saved, doesn't discount the fact that Jesus was seen and TOUCHED in the physical body that He had on earth. People saw the scars from the nails and touched His side where the spear had been thrust.

Reuniting soul and body is resurrection and I don't care how many times it might occur, or whether or not the final result is "incorruptible."
No, not semantics. Again, 1 Corinthians 15:23 states that Jesus Christ was the first person to be resurrected. That means that no one was resurrected prior to Jesus Christ. Jesus had to be the first person resurrected in order for resurrection to be possible for anyone else. Resurrection refers to the body being raised in immortality and incorruption. Not to being restored in a mortal body which will die again. No matter how long a person has been dead, four days in the case of Lazarus, if his soul rejoins his mortal body it is not a resurrection. It is a resuscitation.

As for Jesus, He WAS resurrected. After He was resurrected, His resurrection body was seen and touched. But no one prior to Christ was resurrected. And no one will be resurrected until the pre-tribulational rapture of the Church. At this point in human history Jesus Christ is the only one who has so far been resurrected. When a person is brought back to life it is a resuscitation. Not a resurrection.

Last edited by Mike555; 10-23-2013 at 06:28 PM..
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Old 10-23-2013, 07:08 PM
 
Location: US
27,991 posts, read 15,070,149 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Lazarus was not resurrected. He was resuscitated in his mortal body and died again at a later time. Resurrection refers to the body being raised in a state of immortality and incorruptibility. Jesus was the first fruits of those who are asleep (1 Corinthians 15:20-23).
But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep. For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own order; Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming,
Jesus had to be the first to be resurrected in order for anyone else to be raised in a body like His.

Nope, Lazarus was raised from the dead just as was Yeshua...Show me where is says resuscitated....
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Old 10-23-2013, 07:17 PM
 
21,903 posts, read 16,711,964 times
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Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
Nope, Lazarus was raised from the dead just as was Yeshua...Show me where is says resuscitated....
Richard, just go back and read what I have already said.
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Old 10-23-2013, 10:21 PM
 
2,532 posts, read 2,018,058 times
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Resurrection can apply to spirit and soul joined with an immortal body or joined back with a mortal body. Jesus said, "I am the resurrection." even before He was resurrected bodily. He didn't say, I will be the resurrection on the last day but of coarse He will be. The point is, that He is even now the resurrection and the life because it is His life that has resurrected us. Him being the resurrection was in response to Martha's statement that Lazarus would rise in the last day resurrection. Jesus therefor proved He is the resurrection by resurrecting Lazarus.

Jesus did not say, I am the resuscitation to demonstrate that He is the resurrection. That would be ludicrous. He resurrected Lazarus, however into his mortal body which is a resurrection. It is just not the one referred to as the last day resurrection. Those who have already gone on before are already in immortal bodies. They are the spirits of just men made perfect that Hebrews writes about.
1COR 15:44 "It [the body] is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body." They are already resurrected into Paradise with a spiritual body and when Christ returns, they together with those who are alive at the time will be resurrected/caught up to the Throne Room of God and then be given the mission to minister to a New Creation much like the Angels in spirit form [some times seen but mostly not] minister to this earth.

Moreover because Christ is the resurrection we are already resurrected in spirit and soul from being dead to God and though we die in body yet shall we live and never die as Jesus said. The first resurrection is the resurrection in Christ now because our resurrection is now and continues forever.

Therefor we can refer to resurrection both now in Christ or on the last day depending on the context of ones meaning and as Scriptures demonstrate.

Last edited by garya123; 10-23-2013 at 10:43 PM..
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