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Old 10-24-2013, 09:19 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
You beat me to the punch, gary . . . I was about to post this verse. It is too easily bypassed and ignored in favor of our obsession with retaining our physical bodies. This physical world and all that goes with it is discarded (as after-birth) at our death when we are born again as Spirit. When God slaps our metaphorical spiritual behind at our rebirth . . . He will hit nothing physical . . . but I bet the panorama of infinity will be indescribably fabulous.
Yes indeed! And again I say. Yes indeed! For a brief moment I saw and there are no words to describe the sheer Glory. Sorry, but more likely than not, you will have to wait as I do also now, to see forever. I have my up and downs like everyone else now. I am not more holy nor wiser than anyone else, just more needy.

I suppose what happened to me was needed because I came out of such darkness as Mary Magdalene did, who had been delivered of seven demons but was the first to see the resurrection of Christ. MK 16:9 "Now when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven devils."

It is written that he that has been forgiven much, loves much also because more Grace is needed and therefor given."

Peace and wisdom to you until that Glorious Day!



.
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Old 10-25-2013, 03:07 AM
 
Location: US
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Priscilla Martin View Post
Okay, now that I have two of the great forum minds I have a question about Lazarus. Whether it was resuscitation, temporal resurrection, spiritual resurrection, whatever Lazarus' and Jesus' events are called, my question is isn't Lazarus a type of Christ? I think this ties into Wardendresden's quote of how Lazarus being brought back to temporal life was necessary for Christ's death and resurrection.

Also, while I have the opportunity to ask, though this is a bit off topic, was Lazarus the beggar and Lazarus of Bethany two different men or the same person? Read it both ways over the years. Funny, the things we Christians find to debate!

I'd say Lazarus the beggar in the parable refers to Abraham's gentile servant...
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Old 10-25-2013, 03:14 AM
 
Location: US
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
for what it's worth ... Lazarus was not the only one who was brought physically back to life.
There was:
Elijah and the Widow at Zarephath (1 Kings 17) This widow's son was brought back to life.

Elisha and the Shunammite’s son restored to life (2 Kings 4)

Jesus raises a dead girl (Matthew 9:25)

Jesus raised the dead son of a widow in the funeral procession (Luke 7)

"Many came out of the tombs after Jesus’ resurrection and went into the holy city and appeared to many people " (Matthew 27:53)

Peter and the dead girl Tabitha who was brought back to life (Acts 9)

Eutychus Raised From the Dead at Troas (Acts 20)

No.
  1. Jesus was not subject to another physical death after his resurrection
  2. Jesus resurrected himself, while all other accounts the dead person was resurrected by someone other than themselves
  3. Jesus' resurrected body was in a glorified \ perfect existence, while other's were still infected by sin


Different men.
  • Lazarus of Bethany was the brother of Mary and Martha
  • Lazarus the beggar was part of a parable





How do you know Lazarus died afterwards?...
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Old 10-25-2013, 08:29 AM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
21,958 posts, read 22,109,113 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by garya123 View Post
1COR 15:35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?

1COR 15:37 And that which you sow, you sow not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:

1COR 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

1COR 15:43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

1COR 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
You beat me to the punch, gary . . . I was about to post this verse. It is too easily bypassed and ignored in favor of our obsession with retaining our physical bodies. This physical world and all that goes with it is discarded (as after-birth) at our death when we are born again as Spirit. When God slaps our metaphorical spiritual behind at our rebirth . . . He will hit nothing physical . . . but I bet the panorama of infinity will be indescribably fabulous.
And I remain unconvinced. To begin with, the only one of these scriptures that even refers to our post-resurrection bodies is 1 Corinthians 15:44. I have no argument with any of the other scriptures; I completely agree with them. We will be raised in incorruption and in power and glory. It is entirely possible for us to have a corporeal form and yet have every one of these attributes.

I don't believe that 1 Corinthians 15:44 means we will not be physical beings. A spiritual body is clearly different from a natural body is many, many respects. I agree that we will no longer have our "natural" body, the physical body we lived with. But I do believe we will have form and substance -- just like Jesus did when He told His Apostles to touch Him so that they could know for sure that He was not merely a spirit. Furthermore, His body had disappeared from the tomb. What do you believe happened to it if it was not the body He appeared to people in?

I'm not obsessed with the idea that we will be physical beings any more than you are obsessed with the idea that we won't be. I simply believe that is what the scriptures are telling us. And if it turns out I'm wrong, I won't mind one bit. I suspect that if you're wrong, you won't mind either. Because one thing which, despite our many differences, we have in common is the acknowledgement that regardless of what we believe, God is not going to punish either of us for being wrong.

Last edited by Katzpur; 10-25-2013 at 09:34 AM..
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Old 10-25-2013, 12:19 PM
 
535 posts, read 795,766 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
And I remain unconvinced. To begin with, the only one of these scriptures that even refers to our post-resurrection bodies is 1 Corinthians 15:44. I have no argument with any of the other scriptures; I completely agree with them. We will be raised in incorruption and in power and glory. It is entirely possible for us to have a corporeal form and yet have every one of these attributes.

I don't believe that 1 Corinthians 15:44 means we will not be physical beings. A spiritual body is clearly different from a natural body is many, many respects. I agree that we will no longer have our "natural" body, the physical body we lived with. But I do believe we will have form and substance -- just like Jesus did when He told His Apostles to touch Him so that they could know for sure that He was not merely a spirit. Furthermore, His body had disappeared from the tomb. What do you believe happened to it if it was not the body He appeared to people in?

I'm not obsessed with the idea that we will be physical beings any more than you are obsessed with the idea that we won't be. I simply believe that is what the scriptures are telling us. And if it turns out I'm wrong, I won't mind one bit. I suspect that if you're wrong, you won't mind either. Because one thing which, despite our many differences, we have in common is the acknowledgement that regardless of what we believe, God is not going to punish either of us for being wrong.
Katzpur, will all be resurrected regardless of faith? Do all the resurrected abide in the same place?
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Old 10-25-2013, 01:02 PM
 
Location: US
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Priscilla Martin View Post
Katzpur, will all be resurrected regardless of faith? Do all the resurrected abide in the same place?

The Jew says the Day of Resurrection is only for the righteous...
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Old 10-25-2013, 01:49 PM
 
2,532 posts, read 2,016,481 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
And I remain unconvinced. To begin with, the only one of these scriptures that even refers to our post-resurrection bodies is 1 Corinthians 15:44. I have no argument with any of the other scriptures; I completely agree with them. We will be raised in incorruption and in power and glory. It is entirely possible for us to have a corporeal form and yet have every one of these attributes.

I don't believe that 1 Corinthians 15:44 means we will not be physical beings. A spiritual body is clearly different from a natural body is many, many respects. I agree that we will no longer have our "natural" body, the physical body we lived with. But I do believe we will have form and substance -- just like Jesus did when He told His Apostles to touch Him so that they could know for sure that He was not merely a spirit. Furthermore, His body had disappeared from the tomb. What do you believe happened to it if it was not the body He appeared to people in?

I'm not obsessed with the idea that we will be physical beings any more than you are obsessed with the idea that we won't be. I simply believe that is what the scriptures are telling us. And if it turns out I'm wrong, I won't mind one bit. I suspect that if you're wrong, you won't mind either. Because one thing which, despite our many differences, we have in common is the acknowledgement that regardless of what we believe, God is not going to punish either of us for being wrong.
If you want more detail from a doctor who actually experienced Paradise then I refer you to Caught up into Paradise or Didn't you Read My Book both by Dr. E.B. Ebby. His scientific mind describes in quite detail about the spiritual body that indeed has form but unlike this worlds. He tells about the flowers, the grass, the music and a host of other things but all things are Glorified and everlasting without decay. The Mind of Christ is ever present in you and in perfect communication with God. No boredom, no pain and there is always something wonderful to do without ever being tired. Colors are beyond what the natural eyes can see. All these things and so much more for a foretaste of the Glory.

I was in the Spirit when I read those books and I felt like I was there and now I can't wait to go.
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Old 10-25-2013, 02:58 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
The confusion about resurrection is the direct result of our carnal and physical perspective. It is clear that our connection to (nay . . . obsession with ) our physical body as the locus of our personhood is too powerful to break. We are NOT physical beings with physical bodies. We are spiritual beings temporarily inhabiting physical bodies as the wombs for the development and maturation of our embryo Spirits. Once this body dies . . . we are born again as Spirit . . . as Christ was. THAT is the true and only resurrection . . . NOT a physical one.
Contrary to your belief that a person is born again at the point of physical death, the Bible states that a person is born again - regenerated the moment he believes on Christ. It is not something that occurs at physical death.

Jesus told Nicodemus that he must be born again.
John 3:7 ''Do not be amazed that I said to you, 'You must be born again (gennethenai anothen).'
HELPS Word-studies
1080 gennáō – properly, beget (procreate a descendant), produce offspring; (passive) be born, "begotten." Strong's Greek: 1080. ?????? (gennaó) -- to beget, to bring forth


Anothen;
from above, from a higher place of things which come from heaven or God

from the first, from the beginning, from the very first
anew, over again
Anothen - New Testament Greek Lexicon - New American Standard



Peter said that being born again is a present experience. Not a future event taking place at physical death.
1 Peter 1:3 Blessed by the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again (anagennaó) to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
HELPS Word-studies
313 anagennáō (from 303 /aná, "up, again," which intensifies 1080 /gennáō, "give birth") – properly, born-again or "born from on high."

313 /anagennáō ("born again, from above") is used twice in the NT (1 Pet 1:3,23) – both times referring to God regenerating a believer (giving a supernatural, new birth).
Strong's Greek: 313. ????????? (anagennaó) -- to beget again
1 Peter 1:23 having been born again (anagegennemenoi - Present Participle) not of seed which is perishable but imperishable, that is, through the living and enduring word of God.
HELPS Word-studies
313 anagennáō (from 303 /aná, "up, again," which intensifies 1080 /gennáō, "give birth") – properly, born-again or "born from on high."

313 /anagennáō ("born again, from above") is used twice in the NT (1 Pet 1:3,23) – both times referring to God regenerating a believer (giving a supernatural, new birth).
Strong's Greek: 313. ????????? (anagennaó) -- to beget again

Jesus used the phrase gennethenai anothen - born again, born anew, born from on high; Peter said anagegennemenio - having been born again and is present tense.

Being born again or born from above is being regenerated. Titus 3:5 says the following;
Titus 3:5 He saved (Aorist Indicative-denotes past action occurring in past time with reference to the moment a person believes on Christ) us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration (paliggenesia and renewing by the Holy Spirit.
HELPS Word-studies
3824 paliggenesía (from 3825 /pálin, "again" and 1078 /génesis, "birth, beginning") – properly, the coming of new birth because "born again"; regeneration.

3824 /paliggenesía ("renewal, rebirth") is used twice in the NT referring to: a) the re-birth of physical creation at Christ's return (Advent), which inaugurates His millennial kingdom (Mt 19:28; cf. Ro 8:18-25); and b) the re-birth all believers experience at conversion (Tit 3:5).
Strong's Greek: 3824. ???????????? (paliggenesia) -- regeneration, renewal


According to the Bible, being regenerated, born again, born from on high or from above occurs at the point of faith in Christ Jesus. Not when a person dies physically.


Regarding the resurrection body, just as Jesus was physically resurrected, so will all believers be physically resurrected although the resurrected body is said to be spiritual because it will be a glorified body of incorruptibility and immortality, and will not be subject to the limitations of man's mortal body.

Unbelievers will be resurrected as well, but in contrast with believers, theirs will be a resurrection to disgrace and everlasting contempt as per Daniel 12:2.

Last edited by Mike555; 10-25-2013 at 03:10 PM..
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Old 10-25-2013, 06:03 PM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
21,958 posts, read 22,109,113 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Priscilla Martin View Post
Katzpur, will all be resurrected regardless of faith?
The scriptures state, "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive." Since the word "all" appears twice in the same verse, it is only logical to assume that it means the same thing in both instances. Since Adam's transgression brought death to all mankind (regardless of righteousness or wickedness), I believe that Christ's Atonement will bring about new life (a resurrection) to all mankind (regardless of righteousness or wickedness).

Quote:
Do all the resurrected abide in the same place?
I don't believe so, no.
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Old 10-25-2013, 11:20 PM
 
40,048 posts, read 26,730,521 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Contrary to your belief that a person is born again at the point of physical death, the Bible states that a person is born again - regenerated the moment he believes on Christ. It is not something that occurs at physical death.
Your own citations and explanations validate and agree with my view that what occurs while in our physical body is "conception" . . . NOT birth. The words translate as "conceived or begotten" as in "inseminated" . . . NOT born. We are born from above or begotten from above or conceived from above or born of God . . . take your pick . None of them are births . . . they are all conceptions.
Quote:
Jesus told Nicodemus that he must be born again.
John 3:7 ''Do not be amazed that I said to you, 'You must be born again (gennethenai anothen).'
HELPS Word-studies
1080 gennáō – properly, beget (procreate a descendant), produce offspring; (passive) be born, "begotten." Strong's Greek: 1080. ?????? (gennaó) -- to beget, to bring forth
Anothen;
from above, from a higher place of things which come from heaven or God
from the first, from the beginning, from the very first
anew, over again
Anothen - New Testament Greek Lexicon - New American Standard
Peter said that being born again is a present experience. Not a future event taking place at physical death.
1 Peter 1:3 Blessed by the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again (anagennaó) to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
HELPS Word-studies
313 anagennáō (from 303 /aná, "up, again," which intensifies 1080 /gennáō, "give birth") – properly, born-again or "born from on high."
313 /anagennáō ("born again, from above") is used twice in the NT (1 Pet 1:3,23) – both times referring to God regenerating a believer (giving a supernatural, new birth).
Strong's Greek: 313. ????????? (anagennaó) -- to beget again
1 Peter 1:23having been born again (anagegennemenoi - Present Participle) not of seed which is perishable but imperishable, that is, through the living and enduring word of God.
HELPS Word-studies
313 anagennáō (from 303 /aná, "up, again," which intensifies 1080 /gennáō, "give birth") – properly, born-again or "born from on high."
313 /anagennáō ("born again, from above") is used twice in the NT (1 Pet 1:3,23) – both times referring to God regenerating a believer (giving a supernatural, new birth).
Strong's Greek: 313. ????????? (anagennaó) -- to beget again
Jesus used the phrase gennethenai anothen - born again, born anew, born from on high; Peter said anagegennemenio - having been born again and is present tense.
You are confusing and misrepresenting the translations with your dogma because gennáō does NOT mean "give birth." It means BEGET or CONCEIVE . . . as insemination (seeding) . . . as the bold in your own citation of 1 Peter 1:23 reveals. It is a seeding of our imperishable Spirit . . . not a birth. Flesh is born as Flesh and Spirit is born as Spirit . . . they are separate events. We can be spiritually inseminated or conceived while in our physical bodies. But our birth as Spirit can ONLY occur AFTER our physical death.
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