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Post # 144, Katzpur said : “ … I remain unconvinced. To begin with, the only one of these scriptures that even refers to our post-resurrection bodies is 1 Corinthians 15:44. I have no argument with any of the other scriptures; I completely agree with them. We will be raised in incorruption and in power and glory. It is entirely possible for us to have a corporeal form and yet have every one of these attributes.
I don't believe that 1 Corinthians 15:44 means we will not be physical beings. A spiritual body is clearly different from a natural body is many, many respects. I agree that we will no longer have our "natural" body, the physical body we lived with. But I do believe we will have form and substance -- just like Jesus did when He told His Apostles to touch Him so that they could know for sure that He was not merely a spirit. “
I only have a minute to comment (at the moment), but I have to agree with Katzpur on this specific point, that a physical resurrection was the earliest and most authentic Judeo-Christian doctrine and interpretation described by the early Christians themselves. I also agree with her viewpoint that the early Judeo-Christians would not have interpreted 1 Cor 15:44 as a reference to a non-physical resurrection.
While there are many aspects of the Christian resurrection that are unclear, I believe that the early Judeo-Christians believed in and described clearly, and in some detail, their belief in a physical, bodily resurrection; and, that, at some point, the body becomes glorified and/or changed during the process of final judgment.
At least her description on this point is the closest to the earliest Judeo-Christian descriptions that I am aware of. Whether the early Judeo-Christians and their descriptions are right or whether they are incorrect, it is clear that they describe a physical resurrection.
Clear
ειφυτωδρω
Last edited by Clear lens; 10-26-2013 at 12:42 AM..
Your own citations and explanations validate and agree with my view that what occurs while in our physical body is "conception" . . . NOT birth. The words translate as "conceived or begotten" as in "inseminated" . . . NOT born. We are born from above or begotten from above or conceived from above or born of God . . . take your pick . None of them are births . . . they are all conceptions. You are confusing and misrepresenting the translations with your dogma because gennáō does NOT mean "give birth." It means BEGET or CONCEIVE . . . as insemination (seeding) . . . as the bold in your own citation of 1 Peter 1:23 reveals. It is a seeding of our imperishable Spirit . . . not a birth. Flesh is born as Flesh and Spirit is born as Spirit . . . they are separate events. We can be spiritually inseminated or conceived while in our physical bodies. But our birth as Spirit can ONLY occur AFTER our physical death.
Post # 144, Katzpur said : “ … I remain unconvinced. To begin with, the only one of these scriptures that even refers to our post-resurrection bodies is 1 Corinthians 15:44. I have no argument with any of the other scriptures; I completely agree with them. We will be raised in incorruption and in power and glory. It is entirely possible for us to have a corporeal form and yet have every one of these attributes.
I don't believe that 1 Corinthians 15:44 means we will not be physical beings. A spiritual body is clearly different from a natural body is many, many respects. I agree that we will no longer have our "natural" body, the physical body we lived with. But I do believe we will have form and substance -- just like Jesus did when He told His Apostles to touch Him so that they could know for sure that He was not merely a spirit. “
I only have a minute to comment (at the moment), but I have to agree with Katzpur on this specific point, that a physical resurrection was the earliest and most authentic Judeo-Christian doctrine and interpretation described by the early Christians themselves. I also agree with her viewpoint that the early Judeo-Christians would not have interpreted 1 Cor 15:44 as a reference to a non-physical resurrection.
While there are many aspects of the Christian resurrection that are unclear, I believe that the early Judeo-Christians believed in and described clearly, and in some detail, their belief in a physical, bodily resurrection; and, that, at some point, the body becomes glorified and/or changed during the process of final judgment.
At least her description on this point is the closest to the earliest Judeo-Christian descriptions that I am aware of. Whether the early Judeo-Christians and their descriptions are right or whether they are incorrect, it is clear that they describe a physical resurrection.
Clear
ειφυτωδρω
I agree also, there is a resurrection (I am sorry I do not know the other word Mike uses) of the mortal body before Christ was resurrected, they die again, because this body of flesh and blood cannot enter the kingdom of God. In the resurrections of 1. Cor 15:23+24 there is a change of the body. What was former of dust has become heavenly material, but it is physical and not a spirit.
We can be spiritually inseminated or conceived while in our physical bodies. But our birth as Spirit can ONLY occur AFTER our physical death.
But I was just meditating on this very thing: there is (and has to be) a point and time that the Man-child (Christ) comes forth. It's not for everyone granted, but there's simply too much scriptural evidence of creation groaning for the manifestation of the sons, and the woman who gives birth in Rev 12 I believe is His body.
It seems contrary to Christianity today, but I believe there's more pointing toward Him coming forth out of His people than there is evidence of a rapture.
Your own citations and explanations validate and agree with my view that what occurs while in our physical body is "conception" . . . NOT birth. The words translate as "conceived or begotten" as in "inseminated" . . . NOT born. We are born from above or begotten from above or conceived from above or born of God . . . take your pick . None of them are births . . . they are all conceptions. You are confusing and misrepresenting the translations with your dogma because gennáō does NOT mean "give birth." It means BEGET or CONCEIVE . . . as insemination (seeding) . . . as the bold in your own citation of 1 Peter 1:23 reveals. It is a seeding of our imperishable Spirit . . . not a birth. Flesh is born as Flesh and Spirit is born as Spirit . . . they are separate events. We can be spiritually inseminated or conceived while in our physical bodies. But our birth as Spirit can ONLY occur AFTER our physical death.
Your reply is with reference to post #148.
No, my citations and explanations do not validate and agree with your view. Read ALL of the following carefully. Notice John 16:21.
And gennaó means; Strong's Concordance
gennaó: to beget, to bring forth
Original Word: γεννάω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: gennaó
Phonetic Spelling: (ghen-nah'-o)
Short Definition: I beget, bring forth, give birth to
Definition: I beget (of the male), (of the female) I bring forth, give birth to.
You will notice the words - give birth to, be born.
But let's look at John 16:21 where the word gennaó is very clearly and undeniably used for a child who has been born.
John 16:21 ''Whenever a woman is in labor she has pain, because her hour has come; but when she gives birth (gennese - gennaó; Strong's 1080) to the child, she no longer remembers the anguish because of the joy that a child has been born (egennethe - gennaó; Strong's 1080) into the world.
I agree also, there is a resurrection (I am sorry I do not know the other word Mike uses) of the mortal body before Christ was resurrected, they die again, because this body of flesh and blood cannot enter the kingdom of God. In the resurrections of 1. Cor 15:23+24 there is a change of the body. What was former of dust has become heavenly material, but it is physical and not a spirit.
Do you mean 'resuscitation'? Since the Bible does not apply the term 'resurrection' to life being restored to a mortal body then Lazarus' restoration to physical life in his mortal body must be described in other terms. We must use the best terminology which is available to describe life being restored to a mortal body. And while it may not be precise, the best single word description which is available, that I know of, is resuscitation.
Angels are referred to as spirits but they can also by Gods command appear in physical form. Jesus also appeared in physical form after the resurrection but when taken into Heaven, His form changed so as to live in the spiritual atmosphere of Heaven but also to reside in all by His Spirit.
He was able to appear as a gardener, unrecognizable to Mary, but when He spoke she recognized Him and at that point He appeared in His usual form to her. He also mysteriously appeared in the house with His Apostles in physical form yet miraculously as from thin air. And He also appeared as another man to two of His disciples but they did recognize Him until the breaking of bread.
The mystery is that Christ is in His Church and can take on any form He desires and multiple forms. He is still the Son of Man [human yet Divine] because He is among us in His body the Church even as both male and female, child and old. But of coarse only He can do these things. Our form and function in Heaven will not be with such omnipresence but at His command, we could appear in earthly bodily form as in: MT 17:3 "And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with Him."
It is not in vain that it is written, 1COR 12:27 "Now you are the body of Christ, and members in particular. I don't think we fully understand what His glorified body is like or can do." How we treat one another is how we treat Christ. It does not get any more real then that.
1COR 11:29-34 "For he that eats and drinks [communion] unworthily, eats and drinks damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body. For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep."
For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.
But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.
Wherefore, my brethren, when you come together to eat [the bread], tarry one for another. And if any man hunger, let him eat at home; that you come not together unto condemnation. And the rest will I set in order when I come." They were not discerning that the Lords body was not just the bread but the members that they did not wait for. But instead, they became glutinous and no doubt not sharing their food with the hungry.
This is the greatest mystery of what the Church is. It is the Body of Christ, not a mere trifling of words.
Your own citations and explanations validate and agree with my view that what occurs while in our physical body is "conception" . . . NOT birth. The words translate as "conceived or begotten" as in "inseminated" . . . NOT born. We are born from above or begotten from above or conceived from above or born of God . . . take your pick . None of them are births . . . they are all conceptions. You are confusing and misrepresenting the translations with your dogma because gennáō does NOT mean "give birth." It means BEGET or CONCEIVE . . . as insemination (seeding) . . . as the bold in your own citation of 1 Peter 1:23 reveals. It is a seeding of our imperishable Spirit . . . not a birth. Flesh is born as Flesh and Spirit is born as Spirit . . . they are separate events. We can be spiritually inseminated or conceived while in our physical bodies. But our birth as Spirit can ONLY occur AFTER our physical death.
I truly understand why you say "born from above" because you think born again refers to only the after life because of what Jesus said metaphorically concerning the wind. But did you consider that Jesus said on that occasion with Nicodemus "born again" rather then born from above because He was making the contrast between born of fleshly nature the first time on this earth and the need to be born again a second time of a spiritual nature on the earth in order to know God.
The phase "born from above" denotes from where spiritual birth comes from but "born again" denotes a rebirth of nature from a mere fleshly nature to a spiritual nature. A nature of self control [a fruit of the Spirit] which is to say, control of the excess bodily passions of the fleshly nature. As Jesus said, the Spirit is like the wind that lists in us to create that new nature, bringing us to attention about the things of God, and not that we will list like the wind when gone to Heaven as I saw you write one time.
I truly understand why you say "born from above" because you think born again refers to only the after life because of what Jesus said metaphorically concerning the wind. But did you consider that Jesus said on that occasion with Nicodemus "born again" rather then born from above because He was making the contrast between born of fleshly nature the first time on this earth and the need to be born again a second time of a spiritual nature on the earth in order to know God.
The phase "born from above" denotes from where spiritual birth comes from but "born again" denotes a rebirth of nature from a mere fleshly nature to a spiritual nature of self control [a fruit of the Spirit] that is to say control of the excess bodily passions of the fleshly nature. As Jesus said, the Spirit is like the wind that lists in us to create that new nature, bringing us to attention about the things of God, and not that we will list like the wind when gone to Heaven as I saw you write one time.
Not your Bible but mine does and it makes sense. And sense it is the Spirit who is the teacher and He verifies the meaning of "born again" to me, I'll stick with that. If you want to say born from above concerning the new nature per say then that's fine because that is also true but there is a fine point in logic that only born again fulfills in the context of that discussion with Nicodemus.
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