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Old 10-27-2013, 09:03 AM
 
Location: california
5,655 posts, read 4,881,665 times
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All this speculation is fascinating , mind candy but it cannot produce obedience Jesus expect out of His believers.
The Holy Spirit was provided so one can know the will of God and obey preparing one for heaven , because of one hasn't learned to have God's govern now ,eternity will be too late.
Satan's banishment is due to self will, resisting God's govern. =sin
All the knowledge in the world will not circumvent this fact .
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Old 10-27-2013, 09:50 AM
 
Location: US
27,968 posts, read 15,053,894 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zur View Post
Yes I mean "resuscitation". The meaning is more a coming back to life in a medical sense.
When God brings back a dead person to life it is equal to resuscitation. The difference is the performance is done by a doctor or human in a medical case, but we cannot say the person really died. In the case of God raising a dead person to life again it is a creative miracle, because in the case of Lazarus the body was already in decay, I think in this case we can also speak of a resurrection, but it is always a resurrection in the mortal body. In 1. Cor 15 in the 3 resurrections it is a change of the mortal body into an immortal body (including the living in the Rapture) that makes these resurrections different. If somebody says the resurrection of Lazarus and of Jesus are the same, he is wrong. and if someone says the resurrection of Christ was not bodily is also wrong. Both missed the change of the mortal body in an immortal body.

Lazarus may still be alive...
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Old 10-27-2013, 09:56 AM
 
Location: US
27,968 posts, read 15,053,894 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
After submitting post #174 I discovered that contrary to what I have been saying, the Bible does use the term anastasis - 'resurrection' for those raised back to life in a mortal body.

In Hebrews 11:35 it is stated;
Women received back their dead by resurrection (anastasis; Strongs 386); and others were tortured, not accepting their release, so that they might obtain a better resurrection;
In John 11:23 concerning Lazarus' rising again, and in Luke 24:7 regarding Jesus' rising again, the word used is anastesetai; Strongs 450.

Both anastasis and anastesetai are from ana and histemi and mean to stand again.

Therefore, it is proper to refer to Lazarus' restoration to life as a resurrection. However, Jesus' resurrection is a better resurrection and guarantees a better future resurrection for all believers.

Now, I can say that I am proud of you, Mike...
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Old 10-27-2013, 10:04 AM
 
Location: US
27,968 posts, read 15,053,894 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Richard, are you then claiming that Enoch lived during Paul's lifetime? Paul stated that he knew a man who FOURTEEN YEARS AGO. . . was caught up to the third heaven (2 Corinthians 12:2).

Are you further claiming that Paul was given a thorn in his side to keep him from exalting himself because of revelations that you claim were given to Enoch who in order for your claim to be correct would have to have lived during Paul's lifetime?

2 Corinthians 12:2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago, whether in the body I do not know, or out of the body I do not know, God knows, such a man was caught up to the third heaven.

Did Enoch live during Paul's lifetime Richard? Was Paul given a thorn in his side to keep him from exalting himself because of revelations given to another man?

Are you sure you wish to maintain your position?

He knew of a man above 14 years....Yup...He uses the same phrase as recorded in Enoch...
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Old 10-27-2013, 10:10 AM
 
21,847 posts, read 16,691,085 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arleigh View Post
All this speculation is fascinating , mind candy but it cannot produce obedience Jesus expect out of His believers.
The Holy Spirit was provided so one can know the will of God and obey preparing one for heaven , because of one hasn't learned to have God's govern now ,eternity will be too late.
Satan's banishment is due to self will, resisting God's govern. =sin
All the knowledge in the world will not circumvent this fact .
If you wish to obey God, then obey also His command to grow in grace and in the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
2 Peter 3:18 but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be the glory, both now and to the day of eternity. Amen.
It is by increasing in knowledge of Jesus Christ, and applying that knowledge to your life that you as a believer mature spiritually.
Ephesians 4:13 until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ. 14] As a result, we are no longer to be children, tossed here and there by waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, by craftiness in deceitful scheming; 15] but speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in all aspects into Him who is the head, even Christ.

1 Peter 2:1 Therefore, putting aside all malice and all deceit and hypocrisy and malice and all deceit and hypocrisy and envy and all slander; 2] like newborn babies, long for the pure milk of the word, so that by it you may grow in respect to salvation,

Philippians 3:7 But whatever things were gain to me, those things I have counted as loss for the sake of Christ. 8] More than that, I count all things to be loss in view of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them but rubbish so that I may gain Christ, 9] and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith, 10] that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death; 11] in order that I may attain to the resurrection from the dead.
The eternally saved believer prepares for eternity by growing spiritually in this life. And he grows spiritually by learning and applying the Word of God to the circumstances of this life.
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Old 10-27-2013, 11:07 AM
 
21,847 posts, read 16,691,085 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
Yes...However, it was Enoch that Paul was speaking about, not himself, as Mike always insists...If you read the book of Enoch1 you'll see what I mean...

Chapter 8 Of the assumption of Enoch to the third heaven 1And those men took me thence, and led me up on to the third heaven, and placed me there; and I looked downwards, and saw the produce of these places, such as has never been known for goodness. 2 And I saw all the sweet-flowering trees and beheld their fruits, which were sweet-smelling, and all the foods borne by them bubbling with fragrant exhalation. 3 And in the midst of the trees that of life, in that place whereon the Lord rests, when he goes up into paradise; and this tree is of ineffable goodness and fragrance, and adorned more than every existing thing; and on all sides it is in form gold-looking and vermilion and fire-like and covers all, and it has produce from all fruits. 4 Its root is in the garden at the earth's end. 5 And paradise is between corruptibility and incorruptibility. 6 And two springs come out which send forth honey and milk, and their springs send forth oil and wine, and they separate into four parts, and go round with quiet course, and go down into the PARADISE OF EDEN, between corruptibility and incorruptibility. 7 And thence they go forth along the earth, and have a revolution to their circle even as other elements. 8 And here there is no unfruitful tree, and every place is blessed. 9 And there are three hundred angels very bright, who keep the garden, and with incessant sweet singing and never-silent voices serve the Lord throughout all days and hours. 10 And I said: How very sweet is this place, and those men said to me: IT is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord. 2 Cor 12:1 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven. 2 Cor 12: 2 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth 2 Cor 12: 3 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter. 2 Cor 12: 4 Of such an one will I glory: yet of myself I will not glory, but in mine infirmities. 2 Cor 12: 5 For though I would desire to glory, I shall not be a fool; for I will say the truth: but now I forbear, lest any man should think of me above that which he seeth me to be, or that he heareth of me. 2 Cor 12: 6 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure. 2 Cor 12: 7 For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me. 2 Cor 12: 8 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. 2 Cor 12: 9.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Richard, are you then claiming that Enoch lived during Paul's lifetime? Paul stated that he knew a man who FOURTEEN YEARS AGO. . . was caught up to the third heaven (2 Corinthians 12:2).

Are you further claiming that Paul was given a thorn in his side to keep him from exalting himself because of revelations that you claim were given to Enoch who in order for your claim to be correct would have to have lived during Paul's lifetime?

2 Corinthians 12:2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago, whether in the body I do not know, or out of the body I do not know, God knows, such a man was caught up to the third heaven.

Did Enoch live during Paul's lifetime Richard? Was Paul given a thorn in his side to keep him from exalting himself because of revelations given to another man?

Are you sure you wish to maintain your position?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
He knew of a man above 14 years....Yup...He uses the same phrase as recorded in Enoch...
No Richard. Again, Paul stated that he knew of a man who 14 years ago who was caught up to the third heaven. That's Fourteen years prior to the time of his relating the incidence.

And again, it is because of the surpassing greatness of the revelations (verse 7) with reference to the inexpressible words, which a man is not permitted to speak (verse 4) that Paul was given a thorn in his side in order to prevent him from exalting himself (verse 7).

The Bible Knowledge Commentary has the following on Paul's experience.
Paul's indirect reference to himself as a man in Christ showed that he regarded this great experience not as a consequence of inherent worthiness of spiritual excellence but because he was ''in Christ.'' As such it anticipated what everyone in Christ will one day experience, the presence of Christ in heaven.
This event occurred 14 years earlier, sometime in the years A.D. 42-44 before Paul's missionary journeys reported in Acts. Paul was raptured (caught up is from the same verb harpazó used in 1 Thes. 4:17 of saints at the Rapture) to the third heaven, the dwelling place of Christ and the saints, which Jesus called Paradise (Luke 23:43; cf. Rev. 2:7). Temporal and spatial sensations were absent (whether he was in the body or apart from the body he did not know). What he heard he was forbidden to communicate, possibly because it applied to him alone (cf. Acts 9:16). The experience, however, no doubt contributed to Paul's conviction that ''our light and momentary troubles are achieving for us an eternal glory that far outweighs them all'' (2 Cor. 4:17). [The Bible Knowledge Commentary, New Testament, An Exposition of the Scriptures by Dallas Seminary Faculty, p.582]
Paul was talking about his own experience. Not someone elses. And certainly not Enoch who lived long ago.
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Old 10-27-2013, 11:07 AM
Zur
 
949 posts, read 649,127 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
Lazarus may still be alive...
Shalom Richard!
Yes in Heaven! and it is better there than here on earth, imagine 2000 years on earth must be terrible. But when you can find out his address I would like to meet him.
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Old 10-27-2013, 11:31 AM
Zur
 
949 posts, read 649,127 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Zur, I was wrong. Read post #177.
Mike, thank you, I read post#177
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Old 10-27-2013, 01:06 PM
 
Location: Denver, CO
9,286 posts, read 5,494,131 times
Reputation: 4047
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
After submitting post #174 I discovered that contrary to what I have been saying, the Bible does use the term anastasis - 'resurrection' for those raised back to life in a mortal body.

In Hebrews 11:35 it is stated;
Women received back their dead by resurrection (anastasis; Strongs 386); and others were tortured, not accepting their release, so that they might obtain a better resurrection;
In John 11:23 concerning Lazarus' rising again, and in Luke 24:7 regarding Jesus' rising again, the word used is anastesetai; Strongs 450.

Both anastasis and anastesetai are from ana and histemi and mean to stand again.

Therefore, it is proper to refer to Lazarus' restoration to life as a resurrection. However, Jesus' resurrection is a better resurrection and guarantees a better future resurrection for all believers.
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Old 10-27-2013, 01:33 PM
 
2,532 posts, read 2,016,926 times
Reputation: 326
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
After submitting post #174 I discovered that contrary to what I have been saying, the Bible does use the term anastasis - 'resurrection' for those raised back to life in a mortal body.

In Hebrews 11:35 it is stated;
Women received back their dead by resurrection (anastasis; Strongs 386); and others were tortured, not accepting their release, so that they might obtain a better resurrection;
In John 11:23 concerning Lazarus' rising again, and in Luke 24:7 regarding Jesus' rising again, the word used is anastesetai; Strongs 450.

Both anastasis and anastesetai are from ana and histemi and mean to stand again.

Therefore, it is proper to refer to Lazarus' restoration to life as a resurrection. However, Jesus' resurrection is a better resurrection and guarantees a better future resurrection for all believers.
This takes Godly courage. Thanks Mike.
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