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Old 10-29-2013, 03:14 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Miss Blue View Post
Moderator cut: FYI Please bear with June and I today with the modding. With so many things out of whack with the site right now it is very difficult.Thanks all
DITTO!

"Houston" seems to be having a "problem!"
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Old 10-29-2013, 05:15 PM
 
2,532 posts, read 2,016,481 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
Clear lens LDS? Seriously, Mystic? I didn't see any LDS sources in his post at all. Besides, I never got the feeling that he was trying to promote LDS doctrine. He justed noted a similarity between the LDS perspective and the ancient Judeo-Christian perspective on one point of doctrine. Maybe I should start trying to convert him, though. Do you think he has potential?

About rewards versus no rewarks, Jesus clearly said that He would reward every man according to his works; That doesn't sound like consequences that "just are" to me.
The long standing believe about varying rewards is not backed up by Scripture as the following Scripture points out. MT 20:9 "And when they came that were hired about the eleventh hour, they received every man a penny.MT 20:10 But when the first came, they supposed that they should have received more; and they likewise received every man a penny.MT 20:13 But He answered one of them, and said, Friend, I do you no wrong: did not you agree with me for a penny?" The fullness God and Heaven is our reward no matter how long we have worked in the vineyard. Hope of the same for the bedridden old lady as it was for St. Paul. God is so just.
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Old 10-29-2013, 05:30 PM
 
284 posts, read 252,433 times
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for some reason this post would not format for me and so I will post later. clear
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Old 10-29-2013, 05:52 PM
Status: "Smacking fundies." (set 2 days ago)
 
Location: Ontario, Canada
25,791 posts, read 13,408,706 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clear lens View Post
for some reason this post would not format for me and so I will post later. clear
Formatting (or rather, lack of same) has been plaguing me all night - rendering pithy prose prosaic. (Imagine a break here, followed by another containing a heroic sigh.)
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Old 10-29-2013, 11:41 PM
 
284 posts, read 252,433 times
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4)IN POST #229 MYSTICPHD RESPONDED
Quote:
: My conclusions are based on a much wider field of knowledge not limited to nor controlled by the beliefs as recorded . . . regardless of their chronological provenance.
Hi MysticPhD : My conclusions regarding the early judeo-christians doctrinal interpretation regarding varying levels of reward comes from a survey of the early Judeo-Christian texts where they describe this doctrine. I gave textual samples in posts #217 and # 224. I had expected you to respond with some sort of data so we could compare and discuss the data.In post # 229 you tell us that your conclusions that my historical conclusion is incorrect is "...based on a much wider field of knowledge not limited to nor controlled by the beliefs as recorded . . . regardless of their chronological provenance.". However, you forgot to include any data from this wider field of knowledge. I assumed that since you took a firm stance that you would offer some sort of support for your viewpoint that the early Judeo-Christians did not believe in varied reward and multiple levels within heaven in their early worldviews. This is a very simple historical question. Did early Judeo-Christians believe in multiple levels of heaven or did they not? IF they did not, then offer us some sort of data and reasoning underlying your theory. What is your data and reasoning?Clearly τωσετζτζω
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Old 10-30-2013, 09:47 AM
 
40,046 posts, read 26,730,521 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clear lens View Post
4)IN POST #229 MYSTICPHD RESPONDED Hi MysticPhD : My conclusions regarding the early judeo-christians doctrinal interpretation regarding varying levels of reward comes from a survey of the early Judeo-Christian texts where they describe this doctrine. I gave textual samples in posts #217 and # 224. I had expected you to respond with some sort of data so we could compare and discuss the data.In post # 229 you tell us that your conclusions that my historical conclusion is incorrect is "...based on a much wider field of knowledge not limited to nor controlled by the beliefs as recorded . . . regardless of their chronological provenance.". However, you forgot to include any data from this wider field of knowledge. I assumed that since you took a firm stance that you would offer some sort of support for your viewpoint that the early Judeo-Christians did not believe in varied reward and multiple levels within heaven in their early worldviews. This is a very simple historical question. Did early Judeo-Christians believe in multiple levels of heaven or did they not? IF they did not, then offer us some sort of data and reasoning underlying your theory. What is your data and reasoning?Clearly τωσετζτζω
You misunderstand my position, Clear . . . I accept that the early Christians may have believed in multiple levels. I just do not consider their beliefs controlling. They were operating with "carnal milk" understanding.
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Old 10-30-2013, 11:46 AM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
21,958 posts, read 22,109,113 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by garya123 View Post
The long standing believe about varying rewards is not backed up by Scripture as the following Scripture points out. MT 20:9 "And when they came that were hired about the eleventh hour, they received every man a penny.MT 20:10 But when the first came, they supposed that they should have received more; and they likewise received every man a penny.MT 20:13 But He answered one of them, and said, Friend, I do you no wrong: did not you agree with me for a penny?" The fullness God and Heaven is our reward no matter how long we have worked in the vineyard. Hope of the same for the bedridden old lady as it was for St. Paul. God is so just.
I don't believe Matthew 20:9-10 is addressing that issue at all. I have no problem whatsoever with God's justice, but I do believe that when He gives us commandments and we are obedient to them, He will reward us. That is definitely not unbiblical.
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Old 10-30-2013, 12:14 PM
 
284 posts, read 252,433 times
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MysticPhD explains in post # 236 : “I accept that the early Christians may have believed in multiple levels.”
I am glad that we can agree regarding the textual descriptions of multiple levels within heaven. (or multiple heavens)


MysticPhD adds the point regarding the beliefs of early Christians in post # 236 : “ I just do not consider their beliefs controlling.”
I have to agree that the beliefs of “early Christianity” need not "control" our beliefs. My point was simply that this belief was the dominant belief and interpretation in the early Judeo-Christian movement.

If you believe, for example, in an Islamic theory, or a Hindu theory, or in a personal theory you have created; then this is perfectly fine with me and I think it is good to create base models regarding what one is to believe and then, improve and refine them over time.

However, I have not found any personal models that I believe are any better and more just than the earliest Judeo-Christian model of varied and just reward and punishment.

For example, consider one simply aspect of the doctrine of Just Judgment from post #128 where “…on the day of the great judgment. Every weight and every measure and every set of scales will be just as they are in the market. That is to say, each will be weighed in the balance, and each will stand in the market, and each will find out his own measure and in accordance with that measurement each shall receive his own reward.” (2nd Enoch 44:5)

This is a simple and clear and just doctrine. Most of us do not want to pay the same price for a bag of three apples as we do for a bag of 100 apples. Nor do the merchants want to sell 100 apples for the price of three. We all want to buy and sell based on a fair and just system. The early Judeo-Christian theory of multiple heavens in initial reward is just as sensible and just as buying and selling according to a scale in a market.

In any case MystiPhD, whether the early Christians were more correct, or whether you are more correct, I hope your spiritual journey is quite wonderful in this life. I honestly did enjoy your explanation of physics in your syntheses.



Garya123 : I think your point was both wonderful and quite astute. I do not think the early Judeo-Christians were unbiblical, but rather, in your interpretation, there are points you are not considering. I’m going to go out and do some chores and will get back to you later today.


Clear
τωσεφυνεω

Last edited by Clear lens; 10-30-2013 at 12:56 PM..
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Old 10-30-2013, 12:25 PM
 
40,046 posts, read 26,730,521 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
I don't believe Matthew 20:9-10 is addressing that issue at all. I have no problem whatsoever with God's justice, but I do believe that when He gives us commandments and we are obedient to them, He will reward us. That is definitely not unbiblical.
Biblical or not . . . reward punishment is the lowest level response any organism can make. It is how pets and other species are trained. Emulation is the next level up of response to external role models. Internalization (inner self-motivation) is the highest level. It doesn't seem remotely spiritually productive to focus on or emphasize such low level motivations as reward punishment, IMO.
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Old 10-30-2013, 12:33 PM
 
40,046 posts, read 26,730,521 times
Reputation: 6049
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clear lens View Post
MysticPhD explains in post # 236 : I accept that the early Christians may have believed in multiple levels.
I am glad that we can agree regarding the textual descriptions of multiple levels within heaven. (or multiple heavens)
MysticPhD adds the point regarding the beliefs of early Christians in post # 236 : I just do not consider their beliefs controlling.
I have to agree that the beliefs of early Christianity need not "control" our beliefs. My point was simply that this belief was the dominant belief and interpretation in the early Judeo-Christian movement.
However, I have not found any personal models that I believe are any better and more just than the earliest Judeo-Christian model of varied and just reward and punishment.
For example, consider one simply aspect of the doctrine of Just Judgment from post #128 where on the day of the great judgment. Every weight and every measure and every set of scales will be just as they are in the market. That is to say, each will be weighed in the balance, and each will stand in the market, and each will find out his own measure and in accordance with that measurement each shall receive his own reward. (2nd Enoch 44:5)
This is a simple and clear and just doctrine. Most of us do not want to pay the same price for a bag of three apples as we do for a bag of 100 apples. Nor do the merchants want to be sell 100 apples for the price of three. We all want to buy and sell based on a fair and just system. The early Judeo-Christian theory of multiple heavens in initial reward is just as sensible and just as buying and selling according to a scale in a market.
In any case MystiPhD, whether the early Christians were more correct, or whether you are more correct, I hope your spiritual journey is quite wonderful in this life. I honestly did enjoy your explanation of physics in your syntheses.
I would point you to my response to Katz re: the reward punish paradigm:
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
Biblical or not . . . reward punishment is the lowest level response any organism can make. It is how pets and other species are trained. Emulation is the next level up of response to external role models. Internalization (inner self-motivation) is the highest level. It doesn't seem remotely spiritually productive to focus on or emphasize such low level motivations as reward punishment, IMO.
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