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Old 10-20-2013, 11:31 AM
 
21,891 posts, read 16,707,141 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
The specific things ("precepts and doctrines of men") that you believe ABOUT Christ do not matter to God . . . AS LONG AS you believe ON Christ and FOLLOW Him and His direct instructions to His disciples to "love God and each other" daily and repent when you don't. That is what God cares about. It doesn't get more direct or clear than that.
On the contrary. What you believe about Jesus Christ is of supreme importance. If you do not believe that He died for your sins, and by that I mean that if you do not believe that He died in your place, as a substitute for you, that He bore your sins in His body paying the penalty for your sins, and therefore entrust your salvation to Him, then you remain under condemnation.

Your belief that everyone is already automatically eternally saved is not Biblical and is your own personal 'precept and doctrine'.
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Old 10-20-2013, 01:01 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
On the contrary. What you believe about Jesus Christ is of supreme importance. If you do not believe that He died for your sins, and by that I mean that if you do not believe that He died in your place, as a substitute for you, that He bore your sins in His body paying the penalty for your sins, and therefore entrust your salvation to Him, then you remain under condemnation.

Your belief that everyone is already automatically eternally saved is not Biblical and is your own personal 'precept and doctrine'.
The Satisfaction or Penal Substitution doctrines that you appear to hold dear to your heart, only enables you to see the cross through the eyes of a legalistic mindset, so you are not fooling anyone. Christ’s sacrifice was never to appease the demands of God – that in and of itself is a syncretistic Christian/Pagan concept. You appear to view love with suspicion, as many herein (on this forum) exhibit, believing it will infringe upon your own sense of justice without mercy. Focusing on Jesus' death for the most part makes his life irrelevant, as if, he came only to die for your sins; a lamb for those who have a carnivorous diet.

"With their lips they honor me, but their heart is far from me; for they follow the teachings of men who fear me, demanding that others do the same."
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Old 10-20-2013, 02:49 PM
 
21,891 posts, read 16,707,141 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerwade View Post
The Satisfaction or Penal Substitution doctrines that you appear to hold dear to your heart, only enables you to see the cross through the eyes of a legalistic mindset, so you are not fooling anyone.

The legalistic mindset says that you must add works to faith in order to be saved. It is in opposition to salvation by grace through faith in Christ as a result of His finished work on the Cross in which He satisfied the righteous demands of the Father by bearing our sins in His body on the Cross.
2 Peter 2:24 and He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed.
Eternal life is a free gift which is received by simply believing on Christ which means that you must accept as true the fact that He paid the penalty that was due you, so that by believing on Him you can have eternal life.

The uncalled for accusation of legalism is false.

Quote:
Christ’s sacrifice was never to appease the demands of God – that in and of itself
Quote:
is a syncretistic Christian/Pagan concept. You appear to view love with suspicion, as many herein (on this forum) exhibit, believing it will infringe upon your own sense of justice without mercy. Focusing on Jesus' death for the most part makes his life irrelevant, as if, he came only to die for your sins; a lamb for those who have a carnivorous diet.

"With their lips they honor me, but their heart is far from me; for they follow the teachings of men who fear me, demanding that others do the same."
Jesus had to die for the sins of the world in order to provide salvation for those who come to the Father through Him. It was God the Father who put Jesus on the Cross. The Jews and the Romans were simply the tools which God used to put Him there. Jesus had to live a perfect sin free life in order to be qualified to go to the Cross. And He had to be resurrected afterwards so that He could be the first fruits of those who are asleep (1 Corinthians 15:20).

Isaiah 53 is a Messianic prophecy.
Isaiah 53:10 But the LORD was pleased to crush Him, putting Him to grief; if He would render Himself as a guilt offering...

Isaiah 53:12 Therefore, I will allot Him a portion with the great, and He will divide the booty with the strong; because he poured out Himself to death, and was numbered with the transgressors; yet He Himself bore the sin of many. and interceded tor the transgressors.
Jesus' death on the Cross demonstrated both God's love and His righteousness.
John 3:16 ''For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes on Him shall not perish but have everlasting life.''

Romans 3:24 being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; 25] whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed; 26] for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
Your second and third accusations are also without merit.
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Old 10-20-2013, 03:01 PM
 
40,095 posts, read 26,755,929 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerwade View Post
The Satisfaction or Penal Substitution doctrines that you appear to hold dear to your heart, only enables you to see the cross through the eyes of a legalistic mindset, so you are not fooling anyone. Christ’s sacrifice was never to appease the demands of God – that in and of itself is a syncretistic Christian/Pagan concept. You appear to view love with suspicion, as many herein (on this forum) exhibit, believing it will infringe upon your own sense of justice without mercy. Focusing on Jesus' death for the most part makes his life irrelevant, as if, he came only to die for your sins; a lamb for those who have a carnivorous diet.

"With their lips they honor me, but their heart is far from me; for they follow the teachings of men who fear me, demanding that others do the same."
Amen, Jerwade! . . . still can't rep you yet.
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Old 10-20-2013, 10:50 PM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
11,826 posts, read 10,173,496 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerwade View Post
The Satisfaction or Penal Substitution doctrines that you appear to hold dear to your heart, only enables you to see the cross through the eyes of a legalistic mindset, so you are not fooling anyone. Christ’s sacrifice was never to appease the demands of God – that in and of itself is a syncretistic Christian/Pagan concept. You appear to view love with suspicion, as many herein (on this forum) exhibit, believing it will infringe upon your own sense of justice without mercy. Focusing on Jesus' death for the most part makes his life irrelevant, as if, he came only to die for your sins; a lamb for those who have a carnivorous diet.

"With their lips they honor me, but their heart is far from me; for they follow the teachings of men who fear me, demanding that others do the same."
Nor are you or mystic are fooling anyone.
1 Corinthians 1:18-19
For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
For it is written:
I will destroy the wisdom of the wise; the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate.”

"perishing" has only one finality ... and it's not heaven.
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Old 10-20-2013, 11:25 PM
 
20,421 posts, read 9,837,567 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
Nor are you or mystic are fooling anyone.
1 Corinthians 1:18-19
For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
For it is written:
I will destroy the wisdom of the wise; the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate.”

"perishing" has only one finality ... and it's not heaven.
You, and others herein are forcing various concepts of men into the Scriptures. In this case, Christ was not given as a Sacrifice, according to the theologies of men, rather, he was SENT to open the eyes of humanity. But the eyes can only see what the mind has, is, or will be prepared to comprehend: After this, Jesus, knowing that all things had already been accomplished (tetelestai), to fulfill the Scriptures, said – ‘I am thirsty.’ Therefore, when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, tetelestai (It is finished)!

And He bowed His head and gave up His Spirit:

· His death on the cross by the hands of godless men was complete.
· This man, who was raised up according to the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of the Spirit (and Father of all), overcame the wickedness of men, publically exposing them in the face of adversity.

The contextual translation is: It is finished, accomplished and completed, bringing to an end; it is not an accounting term that carries the meaning of "paid in full" as a penalty.

[It] makes absolutely no sense to take a detour from that which was accomplished, completed or finished, putting an end to sacrificing: For I desire mercy, not Sacrifice, unless of course, you would like add in a substitutionary theory. [It] is not a matter of satisfying the obligations of man’s justice, or the so called Penal Substitution Theory. Christ, the Victor, overthrew the power of the Law – as its condemnation of a perfect man was unjust. But you must understand the Cross from the perspective of Love, Mercy and Grace, rather than that of Legalism, which demands a payment.

Having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross. (Colossians 2:14)
And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross. (Colossians 2:15)
… Because through Christ Jesus, the Law of the Spirit of Life; set us free from the law of sin and death. (Romans 8:1)


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Old 10-20-2013, 11:43 PM
 
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Matthew 20:18-19
Behold, we are going up to Jerusalem; and the Son of Man will be delivered (betrayed) to the chief priests and scribes, and they will condemn
Him to death, and will hand Him over to the Gentiles to mock and scourge and crucify Him, but on the third day He will be raised up.
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Old 10-21-2013, 10:33 AM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
11,826 posts, read 10,173,496 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerwade View Post
Matthew 20:18-19
Behold, we are going up to Jerusalem; and the Son of Man will be delivered (betrayed) to the chief priests and scribes, and they will condemn
Him to death, and will hand Him over to the Gentiles to mock and scourge and crucify Him, but on the third day He will be raised up.
*the bold is referring to Jesus*

Hebrews 7:27
Unlike the other high priests, he does not need to offer sacrifices day after day, first for his own sins, and then for the sins of the people. He sacrificed for their sins once for all when he offered himself.

Hebrews 9:14 How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God!

Hebrews 10:12
But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God,

-------------------------------------------------

tis why John the Baptist said of Jesus "Behold the lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world" John 1:29, John 1:36

and why John (who wrote John 1:29, 36) wrote of Jesus in the vision of Revelation as being "the Lamb"
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Old 10-21-2013, 12:29 PM
 
Location: Southern Oregon
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^None of which points to penal substitution as the mechanism for the fact.
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Old 10-21-2013, 02:28 PM
 
21,891 posts, read 16,707,141 times
Reputation: 8714
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerwade View Post
You, and others herein are forcing various concepts of men into the Scriptures. In this case, Christ was not given as a Sacrifice, according to the theologies of men, rather, he was SENT to open the eyes of humanity. But the eyes can only see what the mind has, is, or will be prepared to comprehend: After this, Jesus, knowing that all things had already been accomplished (tetelestai), to fulfill the Scriptures, said – ‘I am thirsty.’ Therefore, when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, tetelestai (It is finished)!

And He bowed His head and gave up His Spirit:

· His death on the cross by the hands of godless men was complete.
· This man, who was raised up according to the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of the Spirit (and Father of all), overcame the wickedness of men, publically exposing them in the face of adversity.

The contextual translation is: It is finished, accomplished and completed, bringing to an end; it is not an accounting term that carries the meaning of "paid in full" as a penalty.

[It] makes absolutely no sense to take a detour from that which was accomplished, completed or finished, putting an end to sacrificing: For I desire mercy, not Sacrifice, unless of course, you would like add in a substitutionary theory. [It] is not a matter of satisfying the obligations of man’s justice, or the so called Penal Substitution Theory. Christ, the Victor, overthrew the power of the Law – as its condemnation of a perfect man was unjust. But you must understand the Cross from the perspective of Love, Mercy and Grace, rather than that of Legalism, which demands a payment.

Having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross. (Colossians 2:14)
And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross. (Colossians 2:15)
… Because through Christ Jesus, the Law of the Spirit of Life; set us free from the law of sin and death. (Romans 8:1)


On the contrary. No force fit is necessary. The Bible states in the clearest possible terms that Jesus sacrificed Himself on the Cross.
Hebrews 10:10 But this will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. . . 12] but He, having offered one sacrifice for all time, sat down at the right hand of God.
As for the Greek word tetelestai it does indeed mean 'it is finished.' Or more precisely, 'it has been accomplished.' It is also an accounting term which means 'paid in full'. On this, the Bible Knowledge Commentary states concerning it's use in John 19:30;
19:30 The sixth word or saying that Jesus spoke from the cross was the single Greek work tetelestai which means It is finished. Papyri receipts for taxes have been recovered with the word tetelestai written across them, meaning ''paid in full.'' This word on Jesus' lips was significant. When He said, ''It is finished'' (not ''I am finished''), He meant His redemptive work was completed. He had been made sin for people (2 Cor. 5:21) and suffered the penalty of God's justice which sin deserved. [The Bible Knowledge Commentary, New Testament, An Exposition of the Scriptures by Dallas Seminary Faculty, p. 340] The misspelling of the word 'word' in front of tetelestai in the first sentence is their's.
Ancient tax receipts have been found in which the word tetelestai (paid in full) is written on them.


And as the Scriptures which I posted earlier show, Christ's death on the Cross demonstrated both God's love and His righteousness.

The demonstration of God's love;
John 3:16 ''For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes on Him shall not perish but have everlasting life.''
The demonstration of God's righteousness;
Romans 3:24 being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; 25] whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed; 26] for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
Christ's death on the Cross made it possible for God to be justified in making justified anyone who has faith in Jesus Christ. Jesus' death on the Cross was necessary in order to satisfy or propitiate the righteousness of the Father so that His justice could be free to bless with eternal life anyone who comes to Him through Jesus Christ. This is plainly shown in Romans 3:24.
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