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Old 10-23-2013, 09:43 AM
 
Location: US
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wardendresden View Post
Lazarus?

Yup...
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Old 10-23-2013, 09:46 AM
 
Location: US
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerwade View Post
Every man in his own order, as physical death does not prevail.

Everybody forgets about Lazarus as the one resurrected first...
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Old 10-23-2013, 10:41 AM
 
Location: Denver, CO
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Default How Christianity understands it

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerwade View Post
The death, burial, and resurrection were truly an act of love, mercy and grace within the envelope of forgiveness, overturning the hypocritical verdict of an illegal system of justice that professes to be judge, jury, and executioner; sentencing to death the innocent. And, at the same time proclaiming the righteousness of him who died, as their sacrifice in a pretense of having his virtues imputed to themselves, according to the letter of their own understanding! He laid down his own life from a position of love, not that which is based on a Penal Substitution theory – for love covers a multitude of sin. Whereas, under the law, it was a life for a life; an eye for an eye in the form of a payment. In a world immersed in error, it is not an easy thing to believe that God washed away all the sins of humanity.

"The works of the Spirit are for healing, not for condemnation."

Whether, it is from the tombs of Dallas, CARM, or the Greek-English lexicon by Moulton and Milligan; it is still hearsay, gained or acquired from that of another.
From very near the earliest Christians, substitutionary atonement has been the theology of Christians. Perhaps only the disciples did not see it in the beginning--remember they protested when Jesus pointed out to them that His death was imminent.

More interesting, however, are the thoughts of some scholars that Jesus was able to foretell His death because He stood against the ruling authorities, both Jewish and Roman. There had been many before Him in Palestine, and many would follow, who would claim they were the messiah and they were bringing the Kingdom of God. Everyone of them met with the same inglorious end, either killed in battle or, as justice for rebels and slaves was always meted out by the Romans--by crucifixion. For a relatively uneducated man (many scholars doubt his ability to "read" in the synagogues), Jesus was still a very perceptive individual. It was common knowledge throughout the land what would happen to those who stood up to the political forces surrounding them.

A careful reading of Mark notes that Jesus repeatedly told people He healed to "tell no man," unlike the emphasis in other gospels. Did He wish to stave off the inevitable as long as possible? In any event, no one seemed to obey Him. The contrast in Mark is at the end of the chapter (verse 8--verses 9-20 are found in none of the early manuscripts and were much later additions and written in a different hand than the earliest manuscripts) is where a "young man?," (Jesus? an Angel? certainly a messenger from God), tells the women who find His body missing to go and tell the disciples and Peter---which they do not do!!

Once Jesus went to Jerusalem, He knew the "j i g (a lively dance- moderator-this is an idiom, not an offensive word!!) was up", or perhaps more theologically correct, the "cross was up." The authorities were not going to let Him continue to be viewed as a "king."

Even a non-Christian is forced to admit the impact of the "man" Jesus whether they accept His divinity or not. So from the very beginning, however, Christians had to put a spin on the things they had heard and observed. After 2000 years of spinning, ultimately views of Christians have come far afield in many instances from what those original followers heard and believed. Substitutionary death is not one of them. But Christianity has been more shaped and "spiritualized" by a man who never walked and talked with Jesus in the flesh (Paul) than by anything Jesus Himself said or did.

Understanding Jesus purely from a spiritual point of view is quite Paulinian. And although I believe in a spiritual concept of the risen Lord, I focus on finding Him historically, because THAT is how He revealed God to mankind.

Last edited by Wardendresden; 10-23-2013 at 10:49 AM..
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Old 10-23-2013, 10:45 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
The Cross was a demonstration both of God's love and righteousness because God so loved the world that He was willing to send His Son into the world to pay the penalty for sin that was due man and which must be paid. Again, the penalty for sin is spiritual death which is separation from God. Jesus' spiritual death, His separation from God the Father occurred during the three hour period from 12 noon to about 3 pm when the Father caused a supernatural darkness to come over the land during which time He poured out the sins of the world on Jesus. During that time the Father had to turn away from Christ causing Him to cry out in fulfillment of Scripture, 'My God, My God, why have you forsaken Me (Matthew 27:46). The Father had to forsake Jesus while He was bearing the sins of the world in His body (1 Peter 2:24). Because Jesus is both God and man, His death on the Cross as man had infinite value which is why He could pay the penalty for man's sins in that three hour period, whereas, if He had not paid the penalty, man would have been eternally separated from God.
The Gospels do not record an answer to his question in reference to Matthew 27:46, My God, My God, Why have you forsaken Me?
However, Psalm 22:24 might help you understand: He has not hidden his face from him, but has listened to his cry for help.

John 16:32
You [disciples] will leave me all alone. Yet I am not alone, for my Father is with me.

2 Corinthians 5:19
To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself; not imputing their trespasses against them.
And has committed unto us the word of reconciliation.


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Old 10-23-2013, 10:47 AM
 
21,825 posts, read 16,682,806 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
Everybody forgets about Lazarus as the one resurrected first...
Lazarus was not resurrected. He was resuscitated in his mortal body and died again at a later time. Resurrection refers to the body being raised in a state of immortality and incorruptibility. Jesus was the first fruits of those who are asleep (1 Corinthians 15:20-23).
But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep. For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own order; Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming,
Jesus had to be the first to be resurrected in order for anyone else to be raised in a body like His.
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Old 10-23-2013, 10:57 AM
 
21,825 posts, read 16,682,806 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerwade View Post
The Gospels do not record an answer to his question in reference to Matthew 27:46, My God, My God, Why have you forsaken Me?
However, Psalm 22:24 might help you understand: He has not hidden his face from him, but has listened to his cry for help.

John 16:32
You [disciples] will leave me all alone. Yet I am not alone, for my Father is with me.

2 Corinthians 5:19
To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself; not imputing their trespasses against them.
And has committed unto us the word of reconciliation.


It is you who are in need of understanding. I did not ask why Jesus asked God the Father why He had forsaken Him. I told you why God forsake Jesus on the Cross. And of course God did not impute our sins to us. He imputed our sins to Christ who bore them in His own body and was judged in our place.
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Old 10-23-2013, 11:14 AM
 
20,360 posts, read 9,822,083 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wardendresden View Post
From very near the earliest Christians, substitutionary atonement has been the theology of Christians. Perhaps only the disciples did not see it in the beginning--remember they protested when Jesus pointed out to them that His death was imminent.

More interesting, however, are the thoughts of some scholars that Jesus was able to foretell His death because He stood against the ruling authorities, both Jewish and Roman. There had been many before Him in Palestine, and many would follow, who would claim they were the messiah and they were bringing the Kingdom of God. Everyone of them met with the same inglorious end, either killed in battle or, as justice for rebels and slaves was always meted out by the Romans--by crucifixion. For a relatively uneducated man (many scholars doubt his ability to "read" in the synagogues), Jesus was still a very perceptive individual. It was common knowledge throughout the land what would happen to those who stood up to the political forces surrounding them.

A careful reading of Mark notes that Jesus repeatedly told people He healed to "tell no man," unlike the emphasis in other gospels. Did He wish to stave off the inevitable as long as possible? In any event, no one seemed to obey Him. The contrast in Mark is at the end of the chapter (verse 8--verses 9-20 are found in none of the early manuscripts and were much later additions and written in a different hand than the earliest manuscripts) is where a "young man?," (Jesus? an Angel? certainly a messenger from God), tells the women who find His body missing to go and tell the disciples and Peter---which they do not do!!

Once Jesus went to Jerusalem, He knew the "j i g (a lively dance- moderator-this is an idiom, not an offensive word!!) was up", or perhaps more theologically correct, the "cross was up." The authorities were not going to let Him continue to be viewed as a "king."

Even a non-Christian is forced to admit the impact of the "man" Jesus whether they accept His divinity or not. So from the very beginning, however, Christians had to put a spin on the things they had heard and observed. After 2000 years of spinning, ultimately views of Christians have come far afield in many instances from what those original followers heard and believed. Substitutionary death is not one of them. But Christianity has been more shaped and "spiritualized" by a man who never walked and talked with Jesus in the flesh (Paul) than by anything Jesus Himself said or did.

Understanding Jesus purely from a spiritual point of view is quite Paulinian. And although I believe in a spiritual concept of the risen Lord, I focus on finding Him historically, because THAT is how He revealed God to mankind.
Jesus was slain (violently murdered or butchered) before the foundation (disposition and opposition) of the world (inhabitants).

It appears to me that the death of Jesus was brought about through human volition, given the political and religious powers of the day. Although at the same time, Jesus was fully aware that his message and what he represented to the status quo would ultimately lead to a violent death. Thus, his life was an issue in setting the captives free from the established sects of the day. But his death was not divinely foreordained as a penal substitution, whereas, there is no greater love than to lay one's own life down for that of another. Many are fixated on Jesus' death, and will accept nothing but the blood of Jesus, as "they know not, what they do." Although, there is only ONE whose undeniable innocence (not an ordinary victim) was able to change the process of scapegoating (a slaughterhouse religion with carnivorous diet). And, itís a saving act of God; a victory over the powers of this world (men) and a defeat of death, reversing it through his Life and Resurrection. The cross may, indeed be, the centerpiece of the Christian religion, but it is not God's altar, or that of merely exchanging victims; bulls and goats for that of Christ as a substitution.
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Old 10-23-2013, 11:27 AM
 
20,360 posts, read 9,822,083 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
It is you who are in need of understanding. I did not ask why Jesus asked God the Father why He had forsaken Him.
I told you why God forsake Jesus on the Cross. And of course God did not impute our sins to us.
He imputed our sins to Christ who bore them in His own body and was judged in our place.
And, I have informed you on many occasions that you are not my teacher.
Understand this one thing, if nothing else: I do not believe in separation.

"You would be better-off, selling your packaged ideologies to someone who will buy it."


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Old 10-23-2013, 11:30 AM
 
Location: Denver, CO
9,278 posts, read 5,489,845 times
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Default Not all Christians agree regarding "resurrection"

Resuscitation is the restoration to life of one APPARENTLY dead.
resuscitation - definition of resuscitation in the Medical dictionary - by the Free Online Medical Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.

Resurrection refers to being raised from the dead.

1. the act of rising from the dead.
2. the rising of Christ after His death and burial.
3. the rising of the dead on Judgment Day.
4. the state of those risen from the dead.
5. a rising again, as from decay, disuse, etc.; revival.
Resurrection | Define Resurrection at Dictionary.com

There was no "apparently" dead status with regard to Lazarus. In fact, resurrection as understood by Jews occurred earlier than Lazarus, and was performed by those after Jesus at least according to Scripture.

Others who were raised from the dead in the Bible:
In 1 Kings 17:22 Elijah raised a boy from the dead.
In 2 Kings 4:34-35 Elisha raised a boy from the dead.
In 2 Kings 13:20-21 Elisha's bones raised a man from the dead.
In Acts 9:40-41 Peter raised a woman from the dead.
In Acts 20:9-20 Paul raised a man from the dead.

There are some Christians that try to put a different spin on resurrection, but the fleshly resurrection of Lazarus is seen in and of itself as an important spiritual message for the here and now by other Christians---

Quote:
Lazarus's resurrection in flesh typifies Christ coming in flesh and through Christ Lazarus's resurrection in the flesh portends our 'resurrection' while yet in the flesh.

Being resurrected while yet in the flesh is what occurs inwardly in all of God's elect:

Rom 6:13 Neither yield ye your members [as] instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

"As those alive from the dead" means 'as resurrected.' Here is the Concordant version:

Rom 6:13 Nor yet be presenting your members, as implements of injustice, to Sin, but present yourselves to God as if alive from among the dead, and your members as implements of righteousness to God.

God's elect are to live "as IF" they were resurrected from the dead. Here it is again:

Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
http://www.iswasandwillbe.com/Firstf...esurrected.php

To place the meaning of resurrection as simply meaning only a "final" resurrection of the uncorrupted body" is take away it's meaning for Christians who are alive from the "dead" in the here and now.

In that sense, resurrection is an absolutely proper word to apply to Lazarus.

Last edited by Wardendresden; 10-23-2013 at 11:35 AM.. Reason: formatting
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Old 10-23-2013, 11:46 AM
 
20,360 posts, read 9,822,083 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wardendresden View Post
I agree that Jesus' death was never foreseen in the OT as a substitutionary atonement. But it was absolutely seen that way by early Christians. To deny that is to deny history.
To effect a radical change in the ideologies and beliefs of a person, the alteration begins at some point within that of history.
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