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Old 10-17-2013, 10:06 AM
 
Location: Denver, CO
9,279 posts, read 5,491,414 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShepherdMaster View Post
In the last days-
Isaiah 3:12
As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths.




Women have a role but men have always been appointed to leadership. The man is responsible and he will be held accountable, particularly for his family.



I see the failings of men and I see they are already being replaced by women leadership of civil government, we are in the last days.


Men will be judged for their failure to lead.
I'm waiting for you to quote I Cor. 34-35, "---let the women keep silent. For it is not permitted for them to speak, but to be in subjection, just as the law says. If they wish to learn anything, let them ask their husbands at home."

The problem with those verses is that it is extremely unlikely they were written by Paul. If he did so, then he conflicts with his own writing three chapters earlier where he gives INSTRUCTIONS to women speaking in the church when they pray and PROPHESY (preaching in the early church)--activities always done aloud in Christian worship. And the only thing which he instructed there, which is widely ignored by both liberal and conservative Bible believers, is that they are to wear a veil on their head.

So he would be at odds with himself to three chapters later make the statements which are a scribal addition to his writings. Verses 34-35 of I Cor. do not fit into the immediate context of that chapter. Paul is addressing the issue of prophecy in the church and is giving instructions to Christian prophets concerning how they are to behave during services of worship. This is the theme of verse 26-33, and it is the theme of verses 36-40. If you remove verses 34-35 the passage flows seamlessly as a discussion of the role of Christian prophets. The intrusion of 34-35 as a discussion about women is out of context, breaking into instructions that Paul is giving about a different manner. (I might add that verses 34-35 are in some texts found after verse 40, making it more likely to have been a scribal addition).

Paul, as an educated writer, did not write haphazardly. In addition, his entire thematic through his letters is about faith supplanting "the law," which in verse 34 he invokes as important. Faith suddenly is not as important as Jewish law? Jewish law should be observed in Christian practices?

It is difficult to reconcile what Paul said in chapter 11 with what "he" said in chapter 14. Either Paul allowed women to speak with covered heads (chapter 11) or he did not (chapter 14). It seems to me unreasonable to think that an educated man like Paul would contradict himself in the space of three short chapters. The two verses in question are a scribal addition of JEWISH origin, the Jews who kept women in their own section of the Temple and were not allowed to mingle with the men. And early Christianity was filled with Jews that still clung "religiously" as it were, to much of their OT heritage.

Last edited by Wardendresden; 10-17-2013 at 10:41 AM.. Reason: added comment about ver. 34-35 sometimes found after ver. 40
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Old 10-17-2013, 10:36 AM
 
Location: Denver, CO
9,279 posts, read 5,491,414 times
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Default Another non-Pauline writing

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vizio View Post
<snip>

"But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but remain quiet. For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve. And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being quite deceived, fell into transgression," (1 Tim. 2:12-14 -- all quotes from the Bible are from the NASB).
Here is another example of why true Christians must understand textual analysis and context in order to find God's message.

Paul never urged a social revolution, but he did say that "time is short" (until the coming of the Kingdom) and everyone should be content with their roles and not attempt to change their status--whether slave, free, married, single, male or female (I Cor 7:17-24). At best this can be seen as an ambivalent attitude toward women. They were equal in Christ and allowed to participate in the life of the community, but were not allowed to appear without veils (one of the few things our Muslim friends and enemies have gotten right).

In some of the early churches it was the equality in Christ that was emphasized; in others it was the need to remain subservient to men. So in some churches women played an important role, and, in others, their role was diminished and their voices quieted. After Paul's death disputes arose regarding the role women should play and eventually an effort arose to suppress that role altogether.

I Tim is a letter written in Paul's name. Many biblical scholars today believe it was a letter written by one of his later, second generation followers. Using Paul's name as that writer did was not an uncommon practice during the era.

The entire passage in I Tim. 2:11-15 seems a long way from Paul's view that "in Christ there is---not male and female." Either Paul, an educated man, is entirely flaky in his views of women (he was single after all!!), or most likely the scribal influences that preferred to keep women subservient won out over the long haul.

As I posted previously, it is easy to note the scribal influence in I Cor. 14. (and no one doubts that I Cor. was written by Paul). In fact, it is entirely possible and maybe even probable that verses 34-35 of I Cor 14 were introduced by a scribe who had read a copy of I Timothy. At any rate, the war against women was won in the early church by those who wished to suppress women as opposed to those who accorded them equality (subject to wearing a veil).

So it is very interesting that the only instruction regarding women written by Paul about which there is absolutely no doubt (wear a veil) is the one which is routinely ignored by at least all American believers of whom I am aware.
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Old 10-17-2013, 10:38 AM
 
Location: Bay Area, Calif.
2,435 posts, read 2,843,938 times
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I am not aware of anywhere in the Bible where women instructed to stand before the congregation to teach. Rather, the apostle Paul instructed them to "keep quiet in the meetings." Why? One reason, he wrote, is so that things would be done "in a proper and orderly way." (1 Corinthians 14:34,40, Today’s English Version) For the congregation to run smoothly, God has assigned the role of teaching to one group. Note, though, that a person is not granted the privilege of oversight in the congregation simply because he is a male; it is granted only to those men who truly qualify.—1 Timothy 3:1-7, Titus 1: 5-9. Is the role that God has assigned to women demeaning? No at all. Remember, God ordains them to a high calling—that of publicly bearing witness about him. (Psalm 68:11) And that is no small task!
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Old 10-17-2013, 12:17 PM
Status: "Smacking fundies." (set 2 days ago)
 
Location: Ontario, Canada
25,793 posts, read 13,408,706 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Opinionated View Post
I am not aware of anywhere in the Bible where women instructed to stand before the congregation to teach. Rather, the apostle Paul instructed them to "keep quiet in the meetings." Why? One reason, he wrote, is so that things would be done "in a proper and orderly way." (1 Corinthians 14:34,40, Today’s English Version) For the congregation to run smoothly, God has assigned the role of teaching to one group. Note, though, that a person is not granted the privilege of oversight in the congregation simply because he is a male; it is granted only to those men who truly qualify.—1 Timothy 3:1-7, Titus 1: 5-9. Is the role that God has assigned to women demeaning? No at all. Remember, God ordains them to a high calling—that of publicly bearing witness about him. (Psalm 68:11) And that is no small task!
I suspect if you were Ms Opinionated, your opinion might be different.
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Old 10-17-2013, 01:14 PM
 
Location: Whereever we have our RV parked
8,778 posts, read 7,698,666 times
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We just had another thread on this same topic. No, its not Biblical. If Jesus thought it was alright, He would have assigned some women as Apostles, BUT HE DIDN'T. The applicable texts for the Bible have already been cited by other posters. And by the way, the Bible is only irrelevant to those who don't believe and are perishing. But for those who believe, they are the words of eternal life.
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Old 10-17-2013, 01:43 PM
 
400 posts, read 452,280 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wardendresden View Post
In some of the early churches it was the equality in Christ that was emphasized; in others it was the need to remain subservient to men. So in some churches women played an important role, and, in others, their role was diminished and their voices quieted. After Paul's death disputes arose regarding the role women should play and eventually an effort arose to suppress that role altogether.
Thanks for another fine lesson Wardendresden. I'm seriously impressed. Truthfully, no one knows where the Pauline epistle tension originates. What appears contradiction today, maybe wasn't to Paul. It could have been exactly as you suggested, scribal addition, we just don't know beyond a shadow of a doubt.

For the majority of churches little has changed in their women's views on the subject since their inception. Even like denominations wrestle with this topic. I'm not accusing you of this, but for anyone to suggest that those who divide the word differently than we'd like on this subject are somehow wrong, is detrimental to the community of faiths and can send a message of intolerance.

Keep up the great posts. They are informative and often remind of where I once was.
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Old 10-17-2013, 01:54 PM
 
20,370 posts, read 9,822,083 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by augiedogie View Post
We just had another thread on this same topic. No, its not Biblical. If Jesus thought it was alright, He would have assigned some women as Apostles, BUT HE DIDN'T. The applicable texts for the Bible have already been cited by other posters. And by the way, the Bible is only irrelevant to those who don't believe and are perishing. But for those who believe, they are the words of eternal life.
Women leaders have been suppressed through male dominance; let us not continue to be ignorant.
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Old 10-17-2013, 02:33 PM
 
Location: New England
32,223 posts, read 21,101,518 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by augiedogie View Post
We just had another thread on this same topic. No, its not Biblical. If Jesus thought it was alright, He would have assigned some women as Apostles, BUT HE DIDN'T. The applicable texts for the Bible have already been cited by other posters. And by the way, the Bible is only irrelevant to those who don't believe and are perishing. But for those who believe, they are the words of eternal life.
Ignorant Men then like now, probably wouldn't have received women apostles.
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Old 10-17-2013, 02:54 PM
 
Location: Denver, CO
9,279 posts, read 5,491,414 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bartstarr1960 View Post
Thanks for another fine lesson Wardendresden. I'm seriously impressed. Truthfully, no one knows where the Pauline epistle tension originates. What appears contradiction today, maybe wasn't to Paul. It could have been exactly as you suggested, scribal addition, we just don't know beyond a shadow of a doubt.

For the majority of churches little has changed in their women's views on the subject since their inception. Even like denominations wrestle with this topic. I'm not accusing you of this, but for anyone to suggest that those who divide the word differently than we'd like on this subject are somehow wrong, is detrimental to the community of faiths and can send a message of intolerance.

Keep up the great posts. They are informative and often remind of where I once was.
Anyone who would disenfranchise more than 50% of the Christians in the world needs to be called to task. Women were the ones who stood at the foot of the cross when Jesus died. The disciples had all run away. Women discovered the empty tomb, the disciples were playing a self-pity game.

And my background came from Southern Baptists, where I was saved as a 16 year old at a revival in Biloxi, Mississippi about a hundred years ago. I grew up very conservative, clinging to a "faith only" and an "inerrant" view of the scripture---up until I began to read those scriptures more carefully. And it was at an extremely conservative Baptist college (whose President was a former President of Gideons International), that I found my views changing to see the Bible as ONE way God communicates--and one which has to be read in such a way as to clear out all the debris that has been added by scribes (well intentioned as some of them may have been). It does make reading the scripture much more difficult than taking everything at face value. Most Christians prefer "easy" as opposed to "thoughtful."

And I encourage people to thoroughly read the Bible and everything written about it, because that's the surest way to make a liberal.

Quote:
Biblical scholarship is an academic discipline, taught and studied at universities, colleges and divinity schools all around the world. So it should be no surprise that biblical scholars run in all shapes, sizes, colors and denominations. What would surprise many people, though, is that a very large number of us love Jesus and the church, and we spend hours upon hours communicating the love and wonder we experience with the Bible. Indeed, some of our secular colleagues justifiably complain there are too many of us in the field. More surprising might be this one fact: many of us have our roots in fundamentalist and evangelical Christianity. The best way for conservative churches to produce "liberal" biblical scholars is to keep encouraging young people to read the Bible.


That's how it worked for me. I didn't grow up in church, but I found Jesus and was baptized in an Alabama Baptist church just before my 15th birthday. Our pastor and youth director encouraged me to read the Bible, so I did: I got an affordable new Bible and read the Gospel of John. And I loved it! I felt that I knew Jesus more intimately and understood my faith better.
Greg Carey: Where Do 'Liberal' Bible Scholars Come From?

And there is data to support the fact that reading the Bible creates political liberals as well. Pastors evaluate success of churches in a much different fashion than do real born-again Christians.

Quote:
"The research shows that when pastors evaluate the success of their church, they measure attendance, dollars raised, number of staff, number of programs and square footage. All of those are logical measures to explore. The only problem is that Jesus did not die a horrible and unjust death on the cross to fill sanctuaries, generate cash, populate programs, hire religious professionals or build out campuses." -George Barna
Bible Reading Can Make You a Liberal. Religious Trends, Steve Jobs and Twitter | The Wartburg Watch 2013

But here is what happens when people really read the Bible!--

Quote:
However, if you are among those who do read the Bible, then you are usually viewed as being more conservative in your politics. Or are you?

A recent survey tends to turn that stereotype on its head. A Baylor Religion Survey found that the more often someone read the Bible the more liberal then tended to be. Christianity Today reports that the more you read the Bible the more you are likely to oppose things like the death penalty, the patriot act, and see the importance of social issues. Here are some of the numbers.
13 percent decrease in support for the Patriot Act
45 percent increase in support for abolishing the death penalty
22 percent decrease in seeing religion and science as incompatible
35 percent increase in agreement that people should “actively seek social and economic justice in order to be a good person”
The Biblical World: Does reading the Bible make you more liberal?

So reading the Bible critically and taking the truths to heart REALLY will make a change of heart. Just not the change most people expect.

And that's why I agree with a comment one person made that when "I hear someone start a sentence with 'well, the Bible says,' it makes me wonder if they have really read it."
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Old 10-17-2013, 03:27 PM
 
Location: Somerset, Kentucky
473 posts, read 615,941 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wardendresden View Post
Anyone who would disenfranchise more than 50% of the Christians in the world needs to be called to task. Women were the ones who stood at the foot of the cross when Jesus died. The disciples had all run away. Women discovered the empty tomb, the disciples were playing a self-pity game.

And my background came from Southern Baptists, where I was saved as a 16 year old at a revival in Biloxi, Mississippi about a hundred years ago. I grew up very conservative, clinging to a "faith only" and an "inerrant" view of the scripture---up until I began to read those scriptures more carefully. And it was at an extremely conservative Baptist college (whose President was a former President of Gideons International), that I found my views changing to see the Bible as ONE way God communicates--and one which has to be read in such a way as to clear out all the debris that has been added by scribes (well intentioned as some of them may have been). It does make reading the scripture much more difficult than taking everything at face value. Most Christians prefer "easy" as opposed to "thoughtful."

And I encourage people to thoroughly read the Bible and everything written about it, because that's the surest way to make a liberal.


Greg Carey: Where Do 'Liberal' Bible Scholars Come From?

And there is data to support the fact that reading the Bible creates political liberals as well. Pastors evaluate success of churches in a much different fashion than do real born-again Christians.


Bible Reading Can Make You a Liberal. Religious Trends, Steve Jobs and Twitter | The Wartburg Watch 2013

But here is what happens when people really read the Bible!--


The Biblical World: Does reading the Bible make you more liberal?

So reading the Bible critically and taking the truths to heart REALLY will make a change of heart. Just not the change most people expect.

And that's why I agree with a comment one person made that when "I hear someone start a sentence with 'well, the Bible says,' it makes me wonder if they have really read it."

The statistics are funny. I don't know enough about the patriot act. I am a registered republican.

I'm am now against the death penalty having once been for it.

To me science and evolution go hand in hand. God Himself had to begin at nothing, ever growing through what He has on the ground. I believe He has the capacity to pull together all intelligence and hold and distribute it to the more mature, but I think that He also grows with us.---As far as science and religion go?-- need for science to help build diversity of being creative, imaginative, logical, appreciative of capabilities, etc. We learn Him and ourselves through science as well as religion except for false sciences that breed superstitions, corruptions, etc.

I'm moving ever closer to pacifism and farther from politics, world problems, etc.
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