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Old 10-17-2013, 03:33 PM
 
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The Apostles to the Apostles, were and are Women.

What I had learned from my Mother was taught to my children.
As well, as that which was taught by my Father, through his Mother.

In addition, to the Spirits disclosure and desire for all creation.

Last edited by Jerwade; 10-17-2013 at 03:46 PM..
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Old 10-17-2013, 04:09 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kin Atoms View Post
We are related @ the molecular level
What are them dar moleculiars we are all kin two? They must be of the devil cause thay dont' be written in da bible. Had a feller tell me about a toot brush once , some scientify guy, even try to give me one of dim brush sticks, said it would protect my tooths.

But I knosed bettar, it was ole bat Dekay on the other side of the holler, she put put one of the curses one me when I told the dintest I didet wont nos tooth brush, she had brought him over to talks some about Dentell higence. I even herd her out put some curse on me out of the Bible telling me the Lord was going to smite me.

Well I'm down to my last tooth but as long as I got dat one I know the tooth science guy, Mrs. Dekay and Devil are all liars and God is the troth!
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Old 10-17-2013, 06:06 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wardendresden View Post
I'm waiting for you to quote I Cor. 34-35, "---let the women keep silent. For it is not permitted for them to speak, but to be in subjection, just as the law says. If they wish to learn anything, let them ask their husbands at home."

The problem with those verses is that it is extremely unlikely they were written by Paul. If he did so, then he conflicts with his own writing three chapters earlier where he gives INSTRUCTIONS to women speaking in the church when they pray and PROPHESY (preaching in the early church)--activities always done aloud in Christian worship. And the only thing which he instructed there, which is widely ignored by both liberal and conservative Bible believers, is that they are to wear a veil on their head.

So he would be at odds with himself to three chapters later make the statements which are a scribal addition to his writings. Verses 34-35 of I Cor. do not fit into the immediate context of that chapter. Paul is addressing the issue of prophecy in the church and is giving instructions to Christian prophets concerning how they are to behave during services of worship. This is the theme of verse 26-33, and it is the theme of verses 36-40. If you remove verses 34-35 the passage flows seamlessly as a discussion of the role of Christian prophets. The intrusion of 34-35 as a discussion about women is out of context, breaking into instructions that Paul is giving about a different manner. (I might add that verses 34-35 are in some texts found after verse 40, making it more likely to have been a scribal addition).

Paul, as an educated writer, did not write haphazardly. In addition, his entire thematic through his letters is about faith supplanting "the law," which in verse 34 he invokes as important. Faith suddenly is not as important as Jewish law? Jewish law should be observed in Christian practices?

It is difficult to reconcile what Paul said in chapter 11 with what "he" said in chapter 14. Either Paul allowed women to speak with covered heads (chapter 11) or he did not (chapter 14). It seems to me unreasonable to think that an educated man like Paul would contradict himself in the space of three short chapters. The two verses in question are a scribal addition of JEWISH origin, the Jews who kept women in their own section of the Temple and were not allowed to mingle with the men. And early Christianity was filled with Jews that still clung "religiously" as it were, to much of their OT heritage.

I am discounting Paul more and more of late.


What is missed here is the explanation for why women were to not speak. Paul wrote letters to his contemporaries who were familiar with their current culture, of course. He may have been intelligent but not very smart.



Women of Paul's day were uneducated, could not read and often could not understand the context of what was being spoken by the rabbis. Women were constantly interrupting the reading or teaching. Paul instructed the women to sit quietly and he instructed the husbands to explain to their wives when they got home.
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Old 10-17-2013, 06:31 PM
 
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1COR 14:34 "Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak [but they can prophesy]; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also says the law.
1COR 14:35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
1COR 14:36 What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only?
1COR 14:37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.
1COR 14:38 But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant."

Outside of the Church women can teach, evangelize, have Apostleship [be sent], and do all sorts of other ministry.

Women are not subservient nor less in any way no more than I am less as a person than my boss. I am his/her servant just as much as he/she is my servant for a mutual goal in a company to make it work. God has an order in roles, not lessor or greater roles in family and Church. Others may few me as less but God does not nor does He a women.

PROV 13:10 "Only by pride comes contention [against the truth]: but with the well advised is wisdom." There are only three categories of sin in the world and all simultaneously led to man falling away from meekness toward God, each other and his ability to live in the Garden of Eden. Mankind forfeited that uprightness because of the pride that contends against Gods ways. In Christ we learn meekness and our way back to the Garden so to speak.

1JN 2:16 "For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world."

1 COR 14:38 "But if any man be ignorant let Him be ignorant." because he if refuses to acknowledge the word of God he will not listen to me or you.

Why is it because Paul said [by command of God] that the one thing in this Scripture that women were not to do, that so many cry foul? Could it be pride?

Last edited by garya123; 10-17-2013 at 06:49 PM..
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Old 10-17-2013, 07:08 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShepherdMaster View Post
What is missed here is the explanation for why women were to not speak. Paul wrote letters to his contemporaries who were familiar with their current culture, of course. He may have been intelligent but not very smart.
Women of Paul's day were uneducated, could not read and often could not understand the context of what was being spoken by the rabbis. Women were constantly interrupting the reading or teaching. Paul instructed the women to sit quietly and he instructed the husbands to explain to their wives when they got home.
Amen! The idea that 1st century culture and rules should apply to 21st century societies is ludicrous.
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Old 10-17-2013, 07:15 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Wardendresden View Post
I'm waiting for you to quote I Cor. 34-35, "---let the women keep silent. For it is not permitted for them to speak, but to be in subjection, just as the law says. If they wish to learn anything, let them ask their husbands at home."
You didn't have to wait long, Warden!
Quote:
Originally Posted by garya123 View Post
1COR 14:34 "Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak [but they can prophesy]; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also says the law.
1COR 14:35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
1COR 14:36 What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only?
1COR 14:37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.
1COR 14:38 But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant."
This retention of ancient cultural mores and spiritual ignorance under the excuse of displaying faith in God has been the major stumbling block that mainstream Christianity has placed in front of those who would follow Christ.
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Old 10-17-2013, 07:27 PM
 
Location: Denver, CO
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Default Maybe because Paul didn't write it

Quote:
Originally Posted by garya123 View Post
Why is it because Paul said [by command of God] that the one thing in this Scripture that women were not to do, that so many cry foul? Could it be pride?
Perhaps because Paul didn't write it? See post #21

Now I think it is far more interesting that the one thing that HE DID command they do (wear veils), and of which there is no doubt in any scholars mind that he DID indeed write, is the one thing no one seems to have any problem ignoring. I Cor 11:5-6, 10, 13) I Cor 11:15 says a woman's long hair is her glory and given to her as a covering. All of this goes to the Jewish CUSTOM that a woman should not reveal her hair. I have no idea why that was a custom, but somehow a custom became an edict from God!!!!

Quote:
Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Commentary I Cor. 11:15
Not that she does not need additional covering. Nay, her long hair shows she ought to cover her head as much as possible. The will ought to accord with nature [Bengel].
1 Corinthians 11:15 but that if a woman has long hair, it is her glory? For long hair is given to her as a covering.
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Old 10-17-2013, 09:20 PM
 
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Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
You didn't have to wait long, Warden!
This retention of ancient cultural mores and spiritual ignorance under the excuse of displaying faith in God has been the major stumbling block that mainstream Christianity has placed in front of those who would follow Christ.
So now, it is not just the Old Testament that was written by ignorant ancient savages but also the New Testament. We have one here [you] you claim, who can sift through and say what parts of the Bible are true and what is not so that we can finally know the truth. What hubris to contend for mere philosophy over God's word! Well for my soul sake God verified what He wrote in my heart by backing it up with the sure words of the Prophets and the Apostles and witnesses their words by the Spirit. Their is no greater witness.

Christianity was founded by Christ, built up by the Apostles, sustained by the Spirit, and recorded in the written word as a faithful witness against those who would tamper with what He has to say. No matter how much you and others think the written word is errant, the Spirit can teach from any Bible, and in any language, all the fundamental truths that God intended it for from the days He had it written.

The only stumbling block to mainstream Christianity is yours and others refusal to acknowledge the truth in favor of vain philosophy. Not only refuse but teach others rebellion against what Christ said Himself and what He revealed to His Prophets to say and write, which has endured and will endure long after you and I are gone.
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Old 10-17-2013, 09:44 PM
 
2,532 posts, read 2,016,481 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wardendresden View Post
Perhaps because Paul didn't write it? See post #21

Now I think it is far more interesting that the one thing that HE DID command they do (wear veils), and of which there is no doubt in any scholars mind that he DID indeed write, is the one thing no one seems to have any problem ignoring. I Cor 11:5-6, 10, 13) I Cor 11:15 says a woman's long hair is her glory and given to her as a covering. All of this goes to the Jewish CUSTOM that a woman should not reveal her hair. I have no idea why that was a custom, but somehow a custom became an edict from God!!!!


1 Corinthians 11:15 but that if a woman has long hair, it is her glory? For long hair is given to her as a covering.
The major issue in what Paul had to say was not whether a women should wear a veil [it was the culture custom] or not but of her role in the mixed assembly. It seems that if her hair is her glory and covering then that should be sufficient in other cultures.

Yes, Paul wrote it and I need not believe every contrary argument that scholars may put forth. There is a greater teacher then they.
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Old 10-17-2013, 09:45 PM
 
40,047 posts, read 26,730,521 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by garya123 View Post
So now, it is not just the Old Testament that was written by ignorant ancient savages but also the New Testament. We have one here [you] you claim, who can sift through and say what parts of the Bible are true and what is not so that we can finally know the truth. What hubris to contend for mere philosophy over God's word! Well for my soul sake God verified what He wrote in my heart by backing it up with the sure words of the Prophets and the Apostles and witnesses their words by the Spirit. Their is no greater witness.

Christianity was founded by Christ, built up by the Apostles, sustained by the Spirit, and recorded in the written word as a faithful witness against those who would tamper with what He has to say. No matter how much you and others think the written word is errant, the Spirit can teach from any Bible, and in any language, all the fundamental truths that God intended it for from the days He had it written.

The only stumbling block to mainstream Christianity is yours and others refusal to acknowledge the truth in favor of vain philosophy. Not only refuse but teach others rebellion against what Christ said Himself and what He revealed to His Prophets to say and write, which has endured and will endure long after you and are gone.
You have rejected the New Covenant in favor of the Old based on the words "written in ink." The words "written in ink" failed for a reason and the New Covenant exists for that reason. God has "written in our hearts" and provided a Comforter (Holy Spirit) to guide us to the truth that is written there. The scriptures are USEFUL (profitable) but ONLY when read using the "mind of Christ" (WWJT) . . . NOT the "mind of YHWH" as described in the OT. If the OT had been inerrant there would have been no reason for the New and no need for a guide (Comforter). Our ignorant savage ancestors could NOT trust their hearts because God had not yet "written in them."

But with the advent of Christ the New Covenant is in effect and God has "written in our hearts" so we CAN trust what the Comforter (Holy Spirit) leads us to (if we are sincere and unselfish). It is believing the "precepts and doctrines of men" "written in ink" that creates the stumbling block to understanding and knowing God and accepting Christ's Gospel of love. Christ is the Way and a Way is a path to be followed . . . NOT merely believed in. Believing a path will get you where you wish to be is useless if you do not actually follow it. We do that by following Christ's instructions to His disciples to "love God and each other" daily and repent when we don't.

Hebrews 8:7-13 King James Version (KJV)

7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

Hebrews 9:15

For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance—now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.

Luke 22:20

This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you

After Christ all things are new and under the New Covenant to be found "written in our hearts" and guided by the Comforter (Holy Spirit), period.

John 14:26 King James Version (KJV)

26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
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