U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 10-18-2013, 09:47 AM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
11,826 posts, read 10,170,747 times
Reputation: 1308

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vizio View Post
I'm sorry, but you really are reading a lot into those verses. The "not male, not female" statement was in regards to salvation--it had nothing to do with leading a church. I just don't know how to get around the fact that Paul compared it to the order of creation--and specifically said that women should not lead.


The OP asked if women pastors was Biblical. The answer is "No". They aren't. Women did not serve in the role of pastor or elder in the early church. Men are expected to step up and take the role of spiritual leader in their homes, and in the church.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TroutDude View Post
This "reasoning" has led directly to the subjugation of women to the present day.

Only weak men cling to it.
And God in his wisdom chose the weak things to shame those who think they are wise.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 10-18-2013, 09:57 AM
 
Location: Southern Oregon
16,278 posts, read 7,657,119 times
Reputation: 1719
Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
And God in his wisdom chose the weak things to shame those who think they are wise.
Well, it seems that many of those "weak things" are women.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-18-2013, 09:59 AM
 
19,950 posts, read 13,631,972 times
Reputation: 1973
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wardendresden View Post
Let's see if I get this straight. The prophets in the OT were moved by the Holy Spirit?
Yes
Deborah was not a pastor or elder in the Christian church.
Quote:


same source as above

She was the equivalent of a king, she was a judge, and so filled with the Holy Spirit breathing into her mind that she was enable to declare divine truth in all its fullness bestowed upon her. And she could at least accompany her general in leading an army into war.

So if God gives a woman a message, she should keep quiet and discuss it with her husband. What a devil that Deborah was--presuming to become not only like a king and a judge, but to, in effect pastor to deliver a message to the entire nation. But she shouldn't have because only pastors deliver messages and are spiritual leaders.
I've never suggested that. A woman is certainly able to teach other women and children. I don't know how we can ignore the words of Paul, though.
Quote:
But by gum and by golly she WILL NOT pastor a church!!! By the time the NT came around God changed his mind about the women He created.
The NT doesn't say that.
Quote:
The fact of the matter is Paul was still a Jew, and Jews other than Jesus, generally treated women horribly, and the more orthodox of them still do today.
Again...it's not a cultural thing--I'm not sure how one can simply dismiss it, as Paul makes the argument from the order of creation.
Quote:
“Thank God I am not a Gentile or an Ignoramus”: A Jewish Prayer - My CMS | My CMS

So the views of early Christians, including Paul, while they have come a long way from that of the orthodox Jews, was still not developed to the point of seeing qualified women as anywhere near the same as qualified men. It's an ancient custom that came about because of muscles as opposed to brains.

Sorry, Vizio, but I think I would go straight to any church a woman like Deborah was preaching at and perhaps save yours for a time when there was a greater drought on spiritual wisdom. And based on what is written about her, and what you yourself have written, I think her words might echo much longer in my soul.
So be it. You can choose to ignore God's word if you want.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-18-2013, 10:02 AM
 
Location: Southern Oregon
16,278 posts, read 7,657,119 times
Reputation: 1719
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vizio View Post
So be it. You can choose to ignore God's word if you want.
If it were really God's word, you would have a point.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-18-2013, 10:21 AM
 
19,950 posts, read 13,631,972 times
Reputation: 1973
Quote:
Originally Posted by nateswift View Post
If it were really God's word, you would have a point.
You can either rip these passages out of the Bible, or choose not to use the Bible at all. But these verses say a woman should not be a pastor. It's not an unclear thing.


1 Tim 3:2 "An overseer, then, must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, temperate, prudent, respectable, hospitable, able to teach,"

"But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but remain quiet. For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve. And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being quite deceived, fell into transgression," (1 Tim. 2:12-14).
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-18-2013, 10:40 AM
 
Location: Denver, CO
9,286 posts, read 5,495,693 times
Reputation: 4047
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vizio View Post
You can either rip these passages out of the Bible, or choose not to use the Bible at all. But these verses say a woman should not be a pastor. It's not an unclear thing.


1 Tim 3:2 "An overseer, then, must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, temperate, prudent, respectable, hospitable, able to teach,"

"But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but remain quiet. For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve. And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being quite deceived, fell into transgression," (1 Tim. 2:12-14).
Your choice is to rip the story of Deborah out of the Bible---a woman who had authority over an entire religious nation. She exercised authority over men. God was mistaken back then, but not when Paul spoke?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-18-2013, 10:48 AM
 
32,532 posts, read 30,665,435 times
Reputation: 32348
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mightyqueen801 View Post
Look at all the wonderful women preachers and priests and pastors and deacons working today--how awful if someone decreed that they were NOT allowed to serve!
Certain types of people would be very happy with that.

But the world would be much worse off.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-18-2013, 10:56 AM
 
19,950 posts, read 13,631,972 times
Reputation: 1973
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wardendresden View Post
Your choice is to rip the story of Deborah out of the Bible---a woman who had authority over an entire religious nation. She exercised authority over men. God was mistaken back then, but not when Paul spoke?
She was a secular leader and God used her for a time. She was not a pastor. Her being used as a judge and prophetess does not have anything to do with pastors/elders in the NT church. I'm not sure what point you're trying to make.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-18-2013, 01:17 PM
 
Location: Denver, CO
9,286 posts, read 5,495,693 times
Reputation: 4047
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vizio View Post
Yes

Deborah was not a pastor or elder in the Christian church.

I've never suggested that. A woman is certainly able to teach other women and children. I don't know how we can ignore the words of Paul, though.

So be it. You can choose to ignore God's word if you want.
But your spin on Deborah is that God would make her a leader over His people, let her lead an army to war, let her prophesy (but she wasn't teaching when she prophesied--I can show you numerous places where prophets were teaching), but she isn't fit to be a pastor or elder in a church.

And this is the problem scriptural literalists have. As much as they state one should take all the words literally, they still have to nitpick the scriptures, interpret them in a way that fits their own mindset. So on the one hand wearing a veil was "cultural" (where does it say cultural in the Pauline scriptures), but on the other hand not being a pastor or teacher is NOT a cultural viewpoint inserted in the scripture.

Maybe you do preach the whole Bible as literal. Do you admonish women to wear veils in your church? There is no doubt of Pauline authorship regarding that. Or do you dismiss it as "cultural?

It's not that I am alone in ignoring God's word, if that is what you wish to call it. You do so as well!!!

And that's why scripture must be viewed from the point of the Holy Spirit working in one's heart.

Women did not abandon Jesus at the cross--the men HE CHOSE abandoned Him.
Women did not give up hope after His death. They stood watch by the tomb--the men HE CHOSE abandoned Him as dead and gone.

Why did the risen Christ choose to reveal Himself to women first? IMO because of the arrogance and cowardice of the men who were His closest followers. True, all of them would become such proponents of Christ and the resurrection that most would go to their deaths rather than recant.

But when push came to shove, it was women who had to go tell the disciples, "Get your sorry behinds back to the tomb. Jesus is not done with you yet!"
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-18-2013, 01:41 PM
 
19,950 posts, read 13,631,972 times
Reputation: 1973
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wardendresden View Post
But your spin on Deborah is that God would make her a leader over His people, let her lead an army to war, let her prophesy (but she wasn't teaching when she prophesied--I can show you numerous places where prophets were teaching), but she isn't fit to be a pastor or elder in a church.

And this is the problem scriptural literalists have. As much as they state one should take all the words literally, they still have to nitpick the scriptures, interpret them in a way that fits their own mindset. So on the one hand wearing a veil was "cultural" (where does it say cultural in the Pauline scriptures), but on the other hand not being a pastor or teacher is NOT a cultural viewpoint inserted in the scripture.

Maybe you do preach the whole Bible as literal. Do you admonish women to wear veils in your church? There is no doubt of Pauline authorship regarding that. Or do you dismiss it as "cultural?

It's not that I am alone in ignoring God's word, if that is what you wish to call it. You do so as well!!!

And that's why scripture must be viewed from the point of the Holy Spirit working in one's heart.

Women did not abandon Jesus at the cross--the men HE CHOSE abandoned Him.
Women did not give up hope after His death. They stood watch by the tomb--the men HE CHOSE abandoned Him as dead and gone.

Why did the risen Christ choose to reveal Himself to women first? IMO because of the arrogance and cowardice of the men who were His closest followers. True, all of them would become such proponents of Christ and the resurrection that most would go to their deaths rather than recant.

But when push came to shove, it was women who had to go tell the disciples, "Get your sorry behinds back to the tomb. Jesus is not done with you yet!"
What part of "she was a judge, not a pastor", do you not understand? There were different requirements for an OT judge than a NT pastor.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
Similar Threads
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top