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Old 10-18-2013, 03:29 PM
 
Location: New England
32,239 posts, read 21,123,632 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vizio View Post
I gave one. God used a woman in the OT as a champion for her people -- leading them in secular government. That is not equivalent to ordaining a woman as pastor. I have no problem with a woman as a political leader. But she is not to be my pastor.
So God under the law uses a woman for the enrichment of the nation of Israel, but under grace forbids women from roles of leadership. You can't make this kind of stuff up.
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Old 10-18-2013, 04:13 PM
 
Location: Denver, CO
9,293 posts, read 5,500,064 times
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Default Pastors are mentioned once in the NT

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vizio View Post
I gave one. God used a woman in the OT as a champion for her people -- leading them in secular government. That is not equivalent to ordaining a woman as pastor. I have no problem with a woman as a political leader. But she is not to be my pastor.
No, Vizio, you do not understand the Bible that you champion. Deborah was a SPIRITUAL leader. Even evangelicals admit this.

Quote:
The description of Deborah in verses 4 and 5 provides a brief picture of this, the only woman chosen to be a judge in Israel. It begins with her spiritual position as a prophetess. This distinguishes her from all the other judges. None of them were given this designation. It also speaks of her spiritual character. We also see she was a married woman with the responsibilities of being a wife. Since her age is not given, we cannot state what phase of family life she might have been experiencing.

Her location for fulfilling her duties as a judge is very specific. The cities of Ramah and Bethel were about four miles apart on a line north of Jerusalem. This is the same area where the prophet Samuel later judged Israel (1 Samuel 7:16). Deborah held court under a palm tree.

Messenger of the Lord (vv. 6, 7)

6. And she sent and called Barak the son of Abinoam out of Kedesh-naphtali, and said unto him, Hath not the Lord God of Israel commanded, saying, Go and draw toward mount Tabor, and take with thee ten thousand men of the children of Naphtali and of the children of Zebulun?

7. And I will draw unto thee to the river Kishon Sisera, the captain of Jabin's army, with his chariots and his multitude; and I will deliver him into thine hand.

In these verses we see the prophetic ministry of Deborah operating within her position as a judge of the area. The directives and results did not originate from the sharp mind of a military or civil leader. They stemmed from the Lord himself speaking through the mouth of the prophetess.
Deborah

Now if you are saying as a pastor YOU are not a spiritual leader, that God does not use YOU to speak through, then maybe you are just in the business of being a pastor instead of being in the Lord's business of being a spiritual leader---just as Deborah was.

Personally, I prefer a pastor who is, like Deborah, a messenger of the Lord.

Deborah exhibited the following characteristics--are any of them characteristics you would not have in a pastor?
1. She was married (Judg 4:4)
2. She had great faith (Judg 4:4, 6, 14; 5:13,)
3. She was well respected (Judg 4:5) when she asked Barak, a general from Naphtali to come to her (Judg 4:6, 14), he did not hesitate.
4. She confronted wrongs (Judg 4:5, 5: 14b-17, 23)
5. She took action to help others (Judg 4:9)

So which of the above disqualifies one to be a pastor--and the word "pastors" is found only once in the New Testament and that is because of a mistranslation.

Quote:

Only once does the word, "pastors" appear in the New Testament, and yet look how central the "office" of "Pastor" is in the modern Catholic, Protestant, and Evangelical subcultures!

The Greek word in Ephesians 4:11 translated, "pastors", is "poimen" which means shepherd. All of the other uses of that Greek word in the New Testament are translated, "shepherd" or "shepherds". All of these instances either refer to literal shepherds or to Jesus as our shepherd:
[LEFT]For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the
Shepherd and Bishop of your souls. 1 Peter 2:25 [/LEFT]
Pastors
Yet modernistic MEN have made the role of "pastor" to be the pre-eminent position in churches. A completely anti-biblical concept.

Women are vital to the existence of the Lord’s Church; to the faithfulness of the Lord’s Church; to the spread of the Lord’s Church;to the peace and harmony of the local church. Far too many women have not practiced their leadership role in the church. Congregations who have women that are active, willing, and harmonious are congregations that are growing and accomplishing great things for God!

P.S. Pcamps, I can't give you a rep for your post previous to this one (too soon), but---WOW!!

Last edited by Wardendresden; 10-18-2013 at 04:25 PM.. Reason: formatting
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Old 10-18-2013, 04:16 PM
 
Location: Somerset, Kentucky
473 posts, read 616,560 times
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Acts 21:9: And the same man had four daughters, virgins, which did prophesy. Here we have a quartet of gospel women, who while living out their lives among heathen neighbors continued doing God’s will.
Notice these “girls” were in the company of Paul who said in 1 Corinthians 14:34,35: “women keep silence in the church.” Along with their father Philip, they were prophetesses. Do you think Paul said girls, don’t prophecy; it is not permitted for you to speak? Of course not!
To prophesy is to preach according to Webster (National Dictionary of English Language P. F. Collier & Son, New York 1937). Prophetess “female preacher” (Young’s Analytical Concordance pg. 781).
Some are quick to say they prophesied only in homes, and not in church, but Ephesians 4:12 says, “Even so ye, for as much as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church.”
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Old 10-18-2013, 04:20 PM
 
Location: Somerset, Kentucky
473 posts, read 616,560 times
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Acts 18:24-And a certain Jew named Apollos, born at Alexandria, an eloquent man, and mighty in the scriptures, came to Ephesus.

25 This man was instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in the spirit, he spake and taught diligently the things of the Lord, knowing only the baptism of John.

26 And he began to speak boldly in the synagogue: whom when Aquila and Priscilla had heard, they took him unto them, and expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly.
The verb “explain” is plural in the Greek indicating that both Priscilla and Aquila were involved...to teach this man the proper way to preach
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Old 10-18-2013, 04:22 PM
 
Location: Somerset, Kentucky
473 posts, read 616,560 times
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When Paul describes the ministry of Euodia and Syntyche, Paul uses..a couple of the same terms he had previously applied to Timothy and..Epaphroditus... Paul writes that Euodia and Syntyche..had contended together with him (literally)..“in the Gospel”.....Earlier in the same letter, Paul had also described Timothy as someone who had served with him “in the Gospel” (Php 2:22).....Paul goes on to refer to Euodia and Syntyche as his “co-workers”... Earlier, Paul had also referred to Epaphroditus as his “co-worker” (Php 2:25)...Thus, according to Paul, the ministries of these women were comparable to the ministries of the men, Timothy and Epaphroditus.
Early church bishop and theologian, John Chrysostom (c349-407),..believed..that Euodia and Syntyche were the leaders of the Philippian church. ..Moreover, he compared them to Phoebe, a woman minister (diakonos)..in Cenchrea (Rom 16:1-2)...

In his 13th Homily on Philippians he wrote:
These..women [Euodia and Syntyche] seem to me to be the chief of the..Church which was there, and..[Paul] commends them to some notable man whom he calls his..yokefellow;..[Paul] commends them to him, as to a fellow-worker, and fellow-soldier, and brother, and companion, as he does in the..Epistle..to the..Romans, when he says, I commend to you Phoebe our sister, who is a minister of the church at Cenchrea..(Romans 16:1)...
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Old 10-18-2013, 04:37 PM
 
19,950 posts, read 13,639,240 times
Reputation: 1973
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wardendresden View Post
No, Vizio, you do not understand the Bible that you champion. Deborah was a SPIRITUAL leader. Even evangelicals admit this.


Deborah

Now if you are saying as a pastor YOU are not a spiritual leader, that God does not use YOU to speak through, then maybe you are just in the business of being a pastor instead of being in the Lord's business of being a spiritual leader---just as Deborah was.

Personally, I prefer a pastor who is, like Deborah, a messenger of the Lord.

Deborah exhibited the following characteristics--are any of them characteristics you would not have in a pastor?
1. She was married (Judg 4:4)
2. She had great faith (Judg 4:4, 6, 14; 5:13,)
3. She was well respected (Judg 4:5) when she asked Barak, a general from Naphtali to come to her (Judg 4:6, 14), he did not hesitate.
4. She confronted wrongs (Judg 4:5, 5: 14b-17, 23)
5. She took action to help others (Judg 4:9)
So which of the above disqualifies one to be a pastor--and the word "pastors" is found only once in the New Testament and that is because of a mistranslation.
The fact that she was not male disqualified her from serving in a NT Pastoral role.

She was also subject to male headship. Notice that the text says she was the wife of Lappidoth. Yes--God used her to free Israel from oppressors. But she was not a pastor.

If you want to rip the words of Paul out...fine. I'd rather believe the Bible.
Quote:
Pastors
Yet modernistic MEN have made the role of "pastor" to be the pre-eminent position in churches. A completely anti-biblical concept.

Women are vital to the existence of the Lordís Church; to the faithfulness of the Lordís Church; to the spread of the Lordís Church;to the peace and harmony of the local church. Far too many women have not practiced their leadership role in the church. Congregations who have women that are active, willing, and harmonious are congregations that are growing and accomplishing great things for God!

P.S. Pcamps, I can't give you a rep for your post previous to this one (too soon), but---WOW!!
I've never suggested women are not valuable to the church. Yes--women are vital to any church. My church is blessed by women serving in the church. But that doesn't change the fact that God said a pastor must be a man.
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Old 10-18-2013, 04:38 PM
 
19,950 posts, read 13,639,240 times
Reputation: 1973
Quote:
Originally Posted by pcamps View Post
So God under the law uses a woman for the enrichment of the nation of Israel, but under grace forbids women from roles of leadership. You can't make this kind of stuff up.
Again...I realize that actually reading the Bible and doing what it says is a foreign concept to you. I've never observed it to be an important thing to you. But the Bible does say that a requirement to be a pastor is that he be a man. I don't know how to get around that.
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Old 10-18-2013, 04:48 PM
Status: "The nicest curve on a woman's body is her smile" (set 22 days ago)
 
Location: Florida/Tennessee
2,420 posts, read 4,318,152 times
Reputation: 1312
Preach the Gospel always and sometimes use words.

Pastoral leadership does not have to be done with words or authority over men... Mother Terresa was a good example. Was not her actions quiet and yet an example of leadership? Her actions spoke much louder than most televangelists and "preached" beyond what lips can utter.

There are ways to honor God with your gifts, and those gifts can impact the whole world.

So carry on ladies!
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Old 10-18-2013, 05:36 PM
 
19,950 posts, read 13,639,240 times
Reputation: 1973
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave_n_Tenn View Post
Preach the Gospel always and sometimes use words.

Pastoral leadership does not have to be done with words or authority over men... Mother Terresa was a good example. Was not her actions quiet and yet an example of leadership? Her actions spoke much louder than most televangelists and "preached" beyond what lips can utter.

There are ways to honor God with your gifts, and those gifts can impact the whole world.

So carry on ladies!
Yes---women are certainly to be used by God in many many areas OTHER than pastoral leadership. No one said they are not valued by God.
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Old 10-18-2013, 05:39 PM
 
Location: Denver, CO
9,293 posts, read 5,500,064 times
Reputation: 4052
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vizio View Post
The fact that she was not male disqualified her from serving in a NT Pastoral role.

She was also subject to male headship. Notice that the text says she was the wife of Lappidoth. Yes--God used her to free Israel from oppressors. But she was not a pastor.
It's not that women don't have faith.
It's not that women don't have leadership skills.
It's not that women don't have revelation from God.
It's not that they were the only ones to stay close to Jesus in His darkest hour.
It's not that they are not respected.
It's not that they fail to confront wrongs.
It's not that they take no action to help others---

It's that they don't have a certain organ between their legs that make you as a man special!!!

Yup, I think I understand what kind of god you are worshipping.

Good luck with that.
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