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I'm sorry, but you really are reading a lot into those verses. The "not male, not female" statement was in regards to salvation--it had nothing to do with leading a church. I just don't know how to get around the fact that Paul compared it to the order of creation--and specifically said that women should not lead.
The OP asked if women pastors was Biblical. The answer is "No". They aren't. Women did not serve in the role of pastor or elder in the early church. Men are expected to step up and take the role of spiritual leader in their homes, and in the church.
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Originally Posted by TroutDude
This "reasoning" has led directly to the subjugation of women to the present day.
Only weak men cling to it.
And God in his wisdom chose the weak things to shame those who think they are wise.
Deborah was not a pastor or elder in the Christian church.
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same source as above
She was the equivalent of a king, she was a judge, and so filled with the Holy Spirit breathing into her mind that she was enable to declare divine truth in all its fullness bestowed upon her. And she could at least accompany her general in leading an army into war.
So if God gives a woman a message, she should keep quiet and discuss it with her husband. What a devil that Deborah was--presuming to become not only like a king and a judge, but to, in effect pastor to deliver a message to the entire nation. But she shouldn't have because only pastors deliver messages and are spiritual leaders.
I've never suggested that. A woman is certainly able to teach other women and children. I don't know how we can ignore the words of Paul, though.
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But by gum and by golly she WILL NOT pastor a church!!! By the time the NT came around God changed his mind about the women He created.
The NT doesn't say that.
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The fact of the matter is Paul was still a Jew, and Jews other than Jesus, generally treated women horribly, and the more orthodox of them still do today.
Again...it's not a cultural thing--I'm not sure how one can simply dismiss it, as Paul makes the argument from the order of creation.
So the views of early Christians, including Paul, while they have come a long way from that of the orthodox Jews, was still not developed to the point of seeing qualified women as anywhere near the same as qualified men. It's an ancient custom that came about because of muscles as opposed to brains.
Sorry, Vizio, but I think I would go straight to any church a woman like Deborah was preaching at and perhaps save yours for a time when there was a greater drought on spiritual wisdom. And based on what is written about her, and what you yourself have written, I think her words might echo much longer in my soul.
So be it. You can choose to ignore God's word if you want.
If it were really God's word, you would have a point.
You can either rip these passages out of the Bible, or choose not to use the Bible at all. But these verses say a woman should not be a pastor. It's not an unclear thing.
1 Tim 3:2 "An overseer, then, must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, temperate, prudent, respectable, hospitable, able to teach,"
"But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but remain quiet. For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve. And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being quite deceived, fell into transgression," (1 Tim. 2:12-14).
You can either rip these passages out of the Bible, or choose not to use the Bible at all. But these verses say a woman should not be a pastor. It's not an unclear thing.
1 Tim 3:2 "An overseer, then, must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, temperate, prudent, respectable, hospitable, able to teach,"
"But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but remain quiet. For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve. And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being quite deceived, fell into transgression," (1 Tim. 2:12-14).
Your choice is to rip the story of Deborah out of the Bible---a woman who had authority over an entire religious nation. She exercised authority over men. God was mistaken back then, but not when Paul spoke?
Look at all the wonderful women preachers and priests and pastors and deacons working today--how awful if someone decreed that they were NOT allowed to serve!
Certain types of people would be very happy with that.
Your choice is to rip the story of Deborah out of the Bible---a woman who had authority over an entire religious nation. She exercised authority over men. God was mistaken back then, but not when Paul spoke?
She was a secular leader and God used her for a time. She was not a pastor. Her being used as a judge and prophetess does not have anything to do with pastors/elders in the NT church. I'm not sure what point you're trying to make.
Deborah was not a pastor or elder in the Christian church.
I've never suggested that. A woman is certainly able to teach other women and children. I don't know how we can ignore the words of Paul, though.
So be it. You can choose to ignore God's word if you want.
But your spin on Deborah is that God would make her a leader over His people, let her lead an army to war, let her prophesy (but she wasn't teaching when she prophesied--I can show you numerous places where prophets were teaching), but she isn't fit to be a pastor or elder in a church.
And this is the problem scriptural literalists have. As much as they state one should take all the words literally, they still have to nitpick the scriptures, interpret them in a way that fits their own mindset. So on the one hand wearing a veil was "cultural" (where does it say cultural in the Pauline scriptures), but on the other hand not being a pastor or teacher is NOT a cultural viewpoint inserted in the scripture.
Maybe you do preach the whole Bible as literal. Do you admonish women to wear veils in your church? There is no doubt of Pauline authorship regarding that. Or do you dismiss it as "cultural?
It's not that I am alone in ignoring God's word, if that is what you wish to call it. You do so as well!!!
And that's why scripture must be viewed from the point of the Holy Spirit working in one's heart.
Women did not abandon Jesus at the cross--the men HE CHOSE abandoned Him.
Women did not give up hope after His death. They stood watch by the tomb--the men HE CHOSE abandoned Him as dead and gone.
Why did the risen Christ choose to reveal Himself to women first? IMO because of the arrogance and cowardice of the men who were His closest followers. True, all of them would become such proponents of Christ and the resurrection that most would go to their deaths rather than recant.
But when push came to shove, it was women who had to go tell the disciples, "Get your sorry behinds back to the tomb. Jesus is not done with you yet!"
But your spin on Deborah is that God would make her a leader over His people, let her lead an army to war, let her prophesy (but she wasn't teaching when she prophesied--I can show you numerous places where prophets were teaching), but she isn't fit to be a pastor or elder in a church.
And this is the problem scriptural literalists have. As much as they state one should take all the words literally, they still have to nitpick the scriptures, interpret them in a way that fits their own mindset. So on the one hand wearing a veil was "cultural" (where does it say cultural in the Pauline scriptures), but on the other hand not being a pastor or teacher is NOT a cultural viewpoint inserted in the scripture.
Maybe you do preach the whole Bible as literal. Do you admonish women to wear veils in your church? There is no doubt of Pauline authorship regarding that. Or do you dismiss it as "cultural?
It's not that I am alone in ignoring God's word, if that is what you wish to call it. You do so as well!!!
And that's why scripture must be viewed from the point of the Holy Spirit working in one's heart.
Women did not abandon Jesus at the cross--the men HE CHOSE abandoned Him.
Women did not give up hope after His death. They stood watch by the tomb--the men HE CHOSE abandoned Him as dead and gone.
Why did the risen Christ choose to reveal Himself to women first? IMO because of the arrogance and cowardice of the men who were His closest followers. True, all of them would become such proponents of Christ and the resurrection that most would go to their deaths rather than recant.
But when push came to shove, it was women who had to go tell the disciples, "Get your sorry behinds back to the tomb. Jesus is not done with you yet!"
What part of "she was a judge, not a pastor", do you not understand? There were different requirements for an OT judge than a NT pastor.
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